Royal Purple gets smacked down big time

[Tom F&L GoR]

Castrol is a vocal marketer, but apparently not as aggressive as Royal Purple.

In my opinion, one of the most blatant and false claims was that of being ILSAC certified, meaning the oil meets the current fuel economy requirements needed by the OEMs. Their CAFE numbers rely on this performance standard and the oil marketers pay for the privilege to have the "starburst" symbol on the bottle. To claim this without data and without paying for the license is inexcusable.

The rest of the claims demonstrate why consumers can't agree on a particular product, because it depends on whether you trust the advertising. Do you?

Truth in Advertising: BP v. Royal Purple

NARC-National Advertising Review Council (report on April 1.)

 

[Dom426h]

That article confirmed my very thoughts about RP. Me and my friends would always say: Where are they getting this data? Comparing the power/efficiency of a car with 20K mile old sludgy10w50 vs a fresh oil change of RP 5w20???? hahaha

Ive never even thought about buying that overpriced stuff even though the advertizing has been drilled in my head since they are a sponsor of POWERBLOCK tv.

 

[Qualitywires.com]

We need more of these test on other item that claim huge hp gains on certain products.

 

[ViperTony]

The rest of the claims demonstrate why consumers can't agree on a particular product, because it depends on whether you trust the advertising. Do you?

I only trust you Tom!

 

[GTS-R 001]

We need more of these test on other item that claim huge hp gains on certain products.

At least the Vipair was dyno proven!

LOL

 

[ViperTony]

At least the Vipair was dyno proven!

LOL

Not to derail the topic but how many of these did you sell?

 

[eucharistos]

We need more of these test on other item that claim huge hp gains on certain products.

come on ab, do you still doubt the intake vortex valve

You must be registered for see images

and fuel line magnet

You must be registered for see images

power and mpg gains

 

[GTS-R 001]

Not to derail the topic but how many of these did you sell?

Around 400 sold, out of that, only about 3 people admitted on the VCA forum to having bought one.

Plus Big Brakes Dave!

 

[ViperTony]

Around 400 sold, out of that, only about 3 people admitted on the VCA forum to having bought one.

Plus Big Brakes Dave!

I have one.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

I only trust you Tom!

Thanks. I wish there was money in being honest.

 

[Warfang]

Thanks. I wish there was money in being honest.

But honesty brings you many friends, which is better than money.............. riiiight???

 

[GTSnake]

So what are you saying, that RP is not worth the $$$? Then we're better off just sticking to Mobile1? Any other synthetics worth trying?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

But honesty brings you many friends, which is better than money.............. riiiight???

That would be OK if I had rich friends.

So what are you saying, that RP is not worth the $$$? Then we're better off just sticking to Mobile1? Any other synthetics worth trying?

No, I am not saying RP is not worth the money, maybe they have the best oil. It's that an independent arbitration has found they aren't 100% accurate in what they say about the performance of their product. Castrol had the silly TV ads with engines on dynos that ran until they drained the oil out (only the Castrol engine kept going), Amsoil does all the 4-Ball testing (which doesn't apply to engine oils) vs. competitors (except Amsoil does best), Quaker has the ghostly horses run next to your car and says you get power and so on. They all push the limits of marketing. The fact is that they are more the same than they are different, because the physics of lubrication says you cannot get more than a few horsepower difference between any of them.

The industry API S- and C- categories, ILSAC, ACEA performance credentials are very boring but highly regulated, fully tested, licensed, and subject to audits. Products like diesel oils (here I go again) underpromise (gee, only API CI-4?) and outperform (extended drain, better anti-wear, better cleanliness...) Any synthetic 5W-40 diesel oil is a real value; more additives, good viscosity grade, synthetic. The Mobil 0W-40 Euro oil would be a close second as an example. You can rely on these performance specifications to decide on how long the oil can last.

 

[bmw2nv2000]

Just changed engine, trans, and rear end with RP. I will keep on using it myself. I think the color is purdy

 

[99 R/T 10]

The fact is that they are more the same than they are different, because the physics of lubrication says you cannot get more than a few horsepower difference between any of them.

.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...............

1 smile for each quart of Slick 50..............................................



j/k

 

[Madduc]

Well I'm going with Rotella Syn 5-40 since the OIL WIZARD recommends it!

 

[viperdrummer]

I am gonna guess Tom is not big on Prolong.

 

[Madduc]

Well...? Carol Shelby says Z-Max is the best.

 

[2001 GTS]

Well...? Carol Shelby says Z-Max is the best.

So it has to be true!

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

I am gonna guess Tom is not big on Prolong.

 

[slaughterj]

I'm surprised BP didn't just sue them for false advertising and get a nice payout as well as a court order to drop the claims if they were such a problem.

 

[SNKEBIT]

Well I'm going with Rotella Syn 5-40 since the OIL WIZARD recommends it!

Already in my car!

 

[okloneranger]

Tom, Thanks again for providing your very useful information and expertise on this topic. You, and many others like you in the club, do a real service for the Viper Nation by providing us with very relevant knowledge on a variety of topics. To all of you whose posts thousands of us read, and glean gems of wisdom, we may not always say it, but we are greatful.

 

[viperdrummer]

I am on vacation at our river home this week. I had my boat mechanic working on my boat in the boathouse and I talked to him about Tom's explanation of diesal oil, etc. Now this guy does not have the technical expertise but he does tear down a lot of boat ,car and bike engines. His response "he's (Tom) right."

Now, he was a big proponent of Ringfree in boats , which as I understand it is a very concentrated form of Chevron's Techron and Techron in cars which I use in all my cars.

Tom, if you haven't discussed already, what is your view of Techron?

 

[viperdrummer]

What I figured. Although I don't do regulatory work, as a lawyer I have often wondered how they get passed the FTC with those adds unless they have some basis. Maybe someone else knows. Makes no sense. As to Shelby, God love him, have you seen some of the cars he has put his name on over the years??

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

I'm surprised BP didn't just sue them for false advertising and get a nice payout as well as a court order to drop the claims if they were such a problem.

The National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau was established to avoid this. Litigation takes too long and by the time the issue was resolved, the advertising campaign is long past. The *** process is relatively quick - I think the conclusion has to arrive within 60-90 ish days from the challenge. One reason is that to claim real harm, Castrol would have to wait for a) marketing surveys to document that consumers that saw the ads were convinced RP was a better oil and b) that the difference showed up in the rate of sales. With the ***, the opposing sides can immediately bring whatever data they have and are willing to divulge.

The *** process is also voluntary. If one party disagrees with the final ruling, they can refuse to make any amends. That gives the *** the ability to refer the case to the FTC, which of course, does not have to automatically take the case. Honeywell (Prestone) has done this with the claim that one of their antifreeze products is universal (works in all cars) and a competitor did convince *** that there were technical data gaps in their claims. Honeywell has apparently said "see you in court" and that was quite a while ago.

The *** is called arbitration, but in many ways is like mediation. Therefore almost all cases conclude with "advertiser will modify claims." No real blame, just that the claim was not clear enough for the audience, and the advertiser agrees to remove/add a statement here or there. But with RP there were quite a few things to repair, especially the ILSAC claims, so they obviously got a little out of hand. If you look at the *** website you will notice that many companies are "active" in this sort of game and use it as a tool to limit the opponent's effective ads.

Techron: it is one of the original polyether fuel additive chemistries and is old, robust technology that works well but is expensive relative to the newer versions. It is convenient for the aftermarket because a low concentration cleans carburetors, more cleans injectors, even higher amount clean valves, and the full dose cleans combustion chambers as well. An aftermarket company can buy one product and use different dose rates and have a complete product line. The risk in any of these is that the molecules are larger than fuel and when entering the combustion chamber, tends to land on the cylinder wall. It then gets wiped into the oil sump and because the boiling point is high (it will never evaporate from the sump), will simply accumulate. Too much of this in the oil will eventually lead to bearing corrosion, and I think Techron used to put on the label not to use more than 1-2 bottles. A quick Google search shows Yamaha RingFree is for two-strokes. That makes more sense, since there is no oil sump for the additive to accumulate in. It should therefore work well and be safe to use.

Aftermarket: Carroll Shelby et. al. can get away with a lot because there is no technical set of specifications, performance levels, or regulatory body for aftermarket products. Engine oils have API, ACEA, SAE and so on. Gear oils and transmission fluids do as well. Gasoline performance tests exist also for how well they clean fuel system parts. But with highly concentrated additive treatments added on top of a gasoline or on top of an oil (both of which presumably already do "something") and using tests that were designed to measure something else, you can see things get out of hand quickly. That is why the OEMs generally don't like them (even though they occasionally have their own.) Also, the FTC only steps in after the consumer is harmed, so it takes a major issue like the original Slick 50 that actually was detrimental to engine life.

Your mechanic: A smart and observant fellow.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Great info

thanks Tom

 

[slaughterj]

Thanks for the *** info!

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

Why are you guys worried about running an API rated oil? Why not run an oil that isn't endorsed by the API but is *better formulated for a high performance engine*?

The Rotella is API rated, but not for a Viper. A Viper that runs on gasoline and has shorter oil change intervals doesn't need all the detergent that's in a diesel oil. The extra Zinc in Rotella does you little good with all that detergent in there.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Why are you guys worried about running an API rated oil? Why not run an oil that isn't endorsed by the API but is *better formulated for a high performance engine*?

The Rotella is API rated, but not for a Viper. A Viper that runs on gasoline and has shorter oil change intervals doesn't need all the detergent that's in a diesel oil. The extra Zinc in Rotella does you little good with all that detergent in there.

Ans #1: in the example being discussed the issue isn't whether the oil is API licensed or not, it is that one can't trust this marketer's claims purporting to show their oil is better. And it begs the question of how do you know if any oil is better? At least with an API licensed oil the consumer has greater assurances because there is a technical body that peer reviewed the performance tests and passing limits, a regulating system that checks on whether everyone is following the rules, and a field sampling program to test what is actually sold. (e.g. Walmart was in the news for selling out of spec gear oil.)

Ans #2: Rotella is rated API CI-4 and other diesel claims. It is also rated API SL and other gasoline claims. Technically these commercial oils are "universal oils" since they not only are used for diesels, but the rest of a commercial fleet's operations which includes gasoline, certain hydraulic and some transmission applications also. They are truly highly formulated oils.

The "extra" zinc is only the level that gasoline engine oils used to enjoy only a few API categories ago. The level in diesel oils is not "high" and has only been decreased in gasoline engine oils because the OEMs feel it harms the longevity of catalytic converters.

I will respectfully disagree that a high performance gasoline engine can't take advantage of detergents. Detergent additives' prime role is keeping high temperature metals free from deposits - specifically rings and ring lands. In turbo diesels, piston top temperatures are high and if the oil allows these deposits the rings get stuck and quickly lead to scuffing or bore polishing, followed by high oil consumption and power loss. Maybe not every Viper is a race car, but a few trips to a Mexican road race course will likely raise piston temperatures and stress the oil.

Your comment about how zinc does little good with all that detergent implies you believe there a competition for metal sites between the detergents and the anti-wear additive (and friction modifiers). In a properly formulated oil this is not a problem. In fact, as an engine builder, I am sure you are aware of the now-common problem during break-in with a flat tappet engine and today's oils - cam failures are common. The "cure" has been to use the cam manufacturer's break in oil additive or a diesel oil! Once builders realized it was the reduced ZDDP causing the problem, companies like Joe Gibbs Racing oil have been selling a specific break-in oil.

Another major difference between gasoline and diesel use is the amount of soot that gets into diesel oil. The formulation therefore includes higher dispersant amounts, which keep the soot suspended prevent the oil from thickening, and forming sludge in low flow areas. I am sure most piston-heads on this board have seen sludge in their gasoline engine, so it argues that more dispersant (via a diesel oil) is useful. Even Dodge is moving to more diesel like oils - the Mobil 1 0W-40 now used in Vipers is formulated for use in the european passenger car diesels.

Perhaps one last argument I get is that diesel oils are "high ash" which is another way of saying "high detergent." These larger sized detergent molecules are captured on the particulate filter used to measure soot in the exhaust. As emissions from diesels are reduced, the ash level has been reduced and "ashless" technology is used more.

Overall a diesel oil may be overkill. If so, then a synthetic base oil is also overkill. However, when the engine starts to stretch the service requirements far into one direction, whether it be high operating temperatures, high levels of oil contamination, or high wear conditions... or all of them simulataneously, a diesel (universal) oil will provide all the vitamins the engine needs, with complete confidence and with no downside.