Run-flats, Run flats, where art thou Run-flats?

[qtr_mile]

I've had no luck finding a set of rear Michelin run-flats for my '03 Viper that have a manufacturing date inside of 2 years. And it is looking like Michelin is getting less interested in producing more of these tires even though someone posted that Michelin had committed to support the Viper run-flats thru 2012.

Last month I was told by Michelin's customer service that they had plans for manufacturing more run-flats by last week. I called back today for an update and was told that they currently have no plans to produce any thru July 1st. And there were no promises, hints, or probabilities as to when they will eventually get around to supplying their current 560 rear tire run-flat backlog.

So, I'm being forced into PS2's which for the most part is an improvement from all that I've read on this forum -- except when your sidewall is cut and you are left stranded in an area with no cell phone access. But it looks like I'll have to take that chance with PS2's but it will take some of the fun out of cross country trips when you have to worry about that kind of thing.

My front tires still have plenty of tread (mostly highway driving) but I wonder if the handling characteristics of the car will be degraded with new PS2's on the rear and half-worn run-flats on the front?

Any comments would be most appreciated on running that combination of tires.

P.S. I don't track or race the car-- just enjoy a spirited drives on less traveled back-country roads. I log about 4K miles per year in the Viper -- mostly highway. Just don't want to be surprised by unexpected handling characteristics which could permanently end my quest for any tires -- or anything else for that matter.

 

[MTGTS]

Get PS2's all around. The runflats ****!!!!!!

 

[JonB]

........................My front tires still have plenty of tread (mostly highway driving) but I wonder if the handling characteristics of the car will be degraded with new PS2's on the rear and half-worn run-flats on the front?

Any comments would be most appreciated on running that combination of tires.

You are wise to be concerned......the handling of the tires is quite different. The handling of the Viper with rear PS2 is actually degraded by the old front ZPs ! And it sends different signals to your SOTP receptors. You do NOT want the front to respond differently from the rear. Dangerous when a surprise happens, like a furry antlered friend, or a blue-haired neighbor lady......... DONT RISK IT.
Your insiders at Michelin will tell you the same......so will the experts at TireRack

 

[Racer Robbie]

Jon is quite correct. I can tell you from experience, and others can too, that the PS@ tires are the way to go. I also went on a cross country trip last year. I took along a tire repair kit, NAPA Part# 710-1637, and a Conti sealer and inflater kit that I bought for The Tire Rack. I have used the plugs and the inflater with great success.

 

[Vipermann]

This brings up good points.

First, Tirerack's website, says the R-Fs are a 'closeout.' Doesn't sound like more are being made.

Second, for those long, cross-country trips, how about a 6-lug spare tire option in the trunk. A narrow tire in the front diameter should work all the way around to get you to a nearby city with some tire replacement capabilities. I did this for another car that came with no spare - great piece of mind. Anyone know of a small 17-18 wheel that fits?

 

[Ken Lally]

Wow! What exactly is the life of the runflats if the tires still appear to be in good shape?

 

[RTTTTed]

I got 9,000mi. on mine before they helped me hydroplane and crash my GTS. I have 10,000mi. on my PS1s and the rears are toast.

Run craps = negative 100hp is my experience with them. Don't understand how the Gen3s can stop with those crappy tires on them.

I'm glad they are discontinueing them, expecially since they cost double. Buy a full set of PS2s for the price of 2 rears is what my tire guy told me.

Just bought a set of PS2s from JonB and expecting to get some real traction now. John said mileage should be about the same as the others.

As far as a spare tire. I have a 'like new' factory aluminium rim spare Viper tire from my '98 GTS. Don't think it was ever used. It comes with factory carpet cover and factory tool kit. I have the factory spare tire with my '01 Viper in my car as well, wouldn't travel without it. Hopefully, I'll never use it.

ViperClub Classifieds - spare tire with cover and tool kit - Powered by PhotoPost Classifieds

CHEAP! Plus shipping.

Ted

 

[Vipermann]

As far as a spare tire. I have a 'like new' factory aluminium rim spare Viper tire from my '98 GTS. Don't think it was ever used. It comes with factory carpet cover and factory tool kit.

ViperClub Classifieds - spare tire with cover and tool kit - Powered by PhotoPost Classifieds

CHEAP! Plus shipping.

Ted

I'll take it. PayPal? My zip is 78260. Send me a PM.


P.S. What are the ladies like up on Nimp_o Lake?

 

[RTTTTed]

PM sent. I'll check shipping price.

Ted

 

[qtr_mile]

Thank you all for all your comments. If I buy PS2's for the rear I'll get PS2's for the front also.

1. Price difference between run-flat and PS2:
I've not seen any significant price difference between the original equipment run-flat compared with the PS2. For example, tirerack.com currently lists the PS2 rear tire slightly higher than the original equipment run-flat which is no longer listed on their web site. The customer service guy at tirerack said the run-flats have NOT been listed as "discontinued" but they have no longer have an "expected delivery date" for receiving more -- which coincides with Michelin's statement of having no plans for producing the run-flat at least through July 1st. Michelin currently lists the run-flat tire as a "slow mover" but has not discontinued it. Also, the Michelin customer service guy said there are a couple of status grades between "slow mover" and "discontinued". So, there is still some hope -- just not very promising.

345/30ZR19 (RunFlat) ... $465 (tirerack website pricing 4/9/08)
345/30ZR19 C1 (Dodge Viper) PS2 ... $478.00 (tirerack website pricing today 5/29/08)

2. Spare tire:
Very nice that the '98 and '01 Viper trunks will hold a spare tire. I measured my '03 Viper's trunk. It is way too narrow to hold a spare tire. It will not even hold the extremely small spare tire of a '04 Mercedes SL55 (22.75" diameter x 6.5" wide) which stores deflated to save room. When deflated the side wall folds like an accordion with the tire extending only 2" outside the rim. It comes with an air pump to inflate it when needed. And it is not very heavy either. I was forced to use it in a mountain pass one rainy night (outside of any cell phone coverage) after nicking a rock on the highway about the size of a baseball. It made a 1" slit in the sidewall for an instantaneous deflation. Sure am glad I had a spare that night (if not run-flats).

I've read where Corvette has also opted for Michelin PS2's for the 620 hp ZR1 compared to the Goodyear run-flats which are standard for the Z06. I don't know about all the high performance cars but it seems like quite a few of them (perhaps the majority) only come with a can of sealant and maybe a good luck charm from the dealer. I just checked the 2008 Porsche 911 Turbo Cabriolet which comes with a can of sealant since it has no spare or run-flats either.

3. Run flat performance:
I've seen many negative comments about the Michelin run-flats being run-craps, etc. Many of these comments have been about the smoother ride and less tire noise with PS2's which is nice but won't do when the sidewall is cut in a mountain pass. When it comes to performance issues, I imagine that some of these comments are exaggerated. As some say "If it's worth repeating it's worth exaggerating." And I don't think it is fair to compare 5-year nearly worn out run-flats to a new set of PS2's which, of course, is what your forced to do if you get a new set of tires. The run-flat performance cannot be all that bad -- How else could the reported performance testing with run-flats be so excellent for the stock '03 Viper (e.g. 60-0 mph stopping distance of 100 feet and the slalom performance relative to other high performance cars including a Lamborghini Murcielago, Ferrari 575M Maranello, and Corvette Z06 Ref: June'03 MotorTrend feature article p. 62).

A comment that sticks in my mind is the following quote from one of the SRT engineers during the tech chat session recommending run-flats for '03-'06 Vipers whereas the PS2's are best for the '08 Viper. And I would guess he is mainly concerned about performance rather road noise or a smoother ride. He also mentions that here are two versions of the PS2 and to make sure you get the one for the Viper.

==================================================
Re: Question for Luke P. at Tire Rack re 2008 Viper Tires . . .
This information came from one of the SRT engineers during the tech chat session. He said that the Viper tires were better than the aftermarket PS2 tires.
He didn't say how they were different, just that they were better.

Here is the quote:
Originally Posted by srtengineers
We recommend staying witht the PS1 runflats on the '03-'06 car. The tuning is designed around those tires. The suspension on the '08 Viper has been reworked around the PS2 non-runflat. Also, the '08 Viper spec PS2 is NOT the same as the current aftermarket PS2 available from Michelin. The Viper version of the PS2 is way more kickass. BTW, Michelin plans on making the Viper spec PS1 runflat through 2012 for you guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcl4668
Luke --
==================================================

 

[RTTTTed]

When I bought my 98 GTS it came with new runcraps and the previous owner told me that since the runcraps the car had serious traction problems and wheel hop, which it didn't have with the old PS1s. When I crashed that one (I feel partly because of the runcraps) my 01 Viper came with PS1s and even though it had an extra 120rwhp and 150rwtq the car had MORE traction than the previous 598rwhp Viper. Both my GTSs had unused spare tires in the trunk. The only flat I had was with the runcraps, and I didn't even notice it was flat. The runcraps have HEAVY sidewalls and don't handle as well because of that.

Jon B sold me a set of PS2s and said they're a huge amount better than all the other tires available. Since he uses and sells tires - obviously he would know. Add to that all the great reports on the PS2s and I don't understand why you would even consider runcraps as comparable to any of the other tires. The Z06s used the runflats for only 1 year is what I was told, then the Z06s got good tires and started to beat the Viper. The Gen3 viper can't beat the Gen 2 at the drag strip because they didn't have the traction needed for their extra hp. As far as the noise goes ... what noise? Headers and Corsa track exhaust I don't hear tire noise unless I'm driving on rough pavement.

Ted

 

[qtr_mile]

Yes Ted, I totally agree -- the vast majority of the comments say the PS2's are much better. The only reason I'm considering run-flats is for that rare event when you have a blow out from something cutting your tire (such as happend to me) out of town and out of cell phone range (where the sealant-in-a-can won't work). That is the only time the run-flat has the clear advantage. Heck, just the reduced tendency for darting in and out of highway ruts (caused by the semi-trucks) would be enough to convert me to PS2's. And the reduced wheel hop that most people report is a benefit as well so say nothing of the smoother ride and reduced tire noise. Although I'll say that wheel hop for first couple of years was virtually nonexistent and one of the reasons why I said it was unfair to compare old run-flats to new PS2's. The wheel hop (on many high acceleration runs in 1st gear) is fairly common now that the tires are 5 years old - probably closer to six if I were to check out the manufactured date code.

I just ran across the following comment (below) from Jon B from last February where some folks report a performance improvement (contrary to the what the SRT engineer implied) using PS2's over run-flats. And I assume some of the quoted performance gains were for '03 - 06' Viper(s) and not an '08 Viper which is tuned for the PS2's.

Ed
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Quote:
This is so much 'kinder and gentler' to your shocks, springs, steering rack and pump, that its like running a marathon in Nike Airs vs Combat Boots

Everthing feels more 'nimble' and responsive as Voi-9 saw, and Pete will also see. As VOI say, TDS is vastly imprived (That Darty S***) Thanks to BOTH of yoo for your tire and wheel orders, sent with confidence to TATOR DODGE. (And RCL, sent to TLD).

Once you start tossing the car into some corners, the handing bonus is more evident. We have many customers report 2-second faster laps on short tracks vs runflats, and one guys claims SIX SECONDS faster at Sebring, a long-course venue, just due to PS2 vs Runflat.