sad news...viper plant shuttered until end June.
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Flying Viper
Enthusiast
Paul, Bob and 05 Com, All nice responses, you guys do have nice cars, its just not the look I'm looking for and I wanted Bob to know my point of view as to not buying one. ( Its not a money thing like he says)I do look forward to the next design and hope sales boom.
Stay well and hope to meet you all at VOI13 (you can let me drive your cars at speed)
Stay well and hope to meet you all at VOI13 (you can let me drive your cars at speed)
Paul Hawker
Enthusiast
Flying Viper.
Thinks everybody understands.
I have a sneaky feeling that SRT is hard at work, right now, developing further generations of our beloved Vipers. Most likely they will look a little different, but handle even better, go even faster, become even more desirable, and continue to improve. We will continue to buy and love them, while always having our eyes up on the horizon...waiting impatiently for what they will come up with next.
Thinks everybody understands.
I have a sneaky feeling that SRT is hard at work, right now, developing further generations of our beloved Vipers. Most likely they will look a little different, but handle even better, go even faster, become even more desirable, and continue to improve. We will continue to buy and love them, while always having our eyes up on the horizon...waiting impatiently for what they will come up with next.
FLL-B/W-GTS
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Hope your correct..The current car is way behind to other HP cars in it price range... Ie: Hundreds unsold on lots...
ViperSmith
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Yeah, many less than the 991S
BlueLIGHTNING
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I have owned 3 generations of the viper. Obviously most here drive cushy daily drivers when you can't drive a viper as a daily driver. All my life pretty much been driving a 1 ton plus heavy duty work truck where air conditioning wasn't even a option first 18 years. Getting into any Gen viper feels like a Mercedes to me. I like at my gen 2 vs gen 5, personally I like the design of the gen 2 better. Since my daily driving background makes even the GEN2 interior nice compared to my daily driver, the nice new GEN 5 interior and better track handling is not enough to make me switch over. Now had they gone with Volado design viper or similar that would be a game changer!!! Yes if your daily driver is Lincoln towncar the gen 5 feels better than the rest but to me only a radical design would interest me and I feel many previous owners are in the same boat. Viper has always been outrageous, gen 3 kinda lost that but gen 4 ACR brought that back, we need something outrageous again!!!
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BlueLIGHTNING
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IMO Gen 5 viper should have been Gen 3 viper design. That would have been the right evolutionary path and todays GEN 5 should have been something beyond what the design is today.
05Commemorative
Enthusiast
You keep saying this, but then have zero facts to back it up... (referring to "way behind to other HP cars in it price range") Can you share what you are talking about?
05Commemorative
Enthusiast
I am not sure if you have driven one or not, but I will tell you after purchasing mine, it makes my Gen3 seem like an antique. Seriously, the difference (even though based upon essentially the same frame and suspension) is staggering. I loved the Gen3 design, always appreciated the Gen2 design as well, but must say, in person, this new one is no comparison. It is a big leap visually, quality, electronics and driving wise, but I will only say you must spend some time driving and seeing in person to fully appreciate.
BlueLIGHTNING
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I have been up close to GEN 5 and so far my fav is launch edition b/w. Funny I was able to test drive both GEN3 and GEN4 before buying both. They were in the showroom and anyone could sit in them. Now they are all roped off and so I never even bothered to ask for a test drive. Chrysler should take a lesson from Victory Motorcycles "Test ride one and you will buy one" is their slogan. I did and I bought one same day of test ride.
05Commemorative
Enthusiast
I agree with you. btw, I purchased a Launch Edition to go with my 05 Commemorative Edition (opposite colors). It was a pain, but I did get them to let me drive one and it made a huge difference. Remember, I was only looking for a conv and did not think I would get a coupe. The car is that good, it will sell itself.
fuelman
VCA Venom Member
In 1992 the Viper became a true American Super Car following the GT40 and Cobra427, every generation has improved on the prior, the Gen 5 has solidified the Viper's place on the 21st century stage of super cars. If you drive one you will see.....
FinalEd357
Viper Owner
Butts in seats = new owners. If it is feasible, I believe very few people would not pull the trigger after driving.
So which cars have more horsepower? Of cars currently on sale that are not these new "sport hybrids" - the answer is 3 - out of all the other sports cars made. Lets have a look.
The Lamborghini Aventador has 690 hp - the ridiculous part is that Lamborghini designed an all-new engine for this car and only gained 20 hp vs the outgoing engine (pitiful!). Plus, back in the Gen2 heyday Lamborghini was 80 hp above the Viper. So the Viper community has closed that gap - an improvement. Plus, this car has an inferior power-to-weight ratio.
The Ferrari F12 has 730 hp - this car is an outlier and benefited from the R&D that went into LaFerrari. It also needs that much power because it has a 4000 LBS CURB WEIGHT (4003 to be exact). And it costs $400K - not a Viper competitor, just like the 599 wasn't. Back in the hallowed early 2000s - the 575M made 65 more hp than the Gen2 (thats 14.4% more power - whats 1.144 x 640? It's 732, thats interesting). So the HP gap vs Ferrari is the same that it has been.
Mustang GT500 - when the GT500 premiered it made as much power as the Gen3 - I don't remember that making prior VCA posters insecure. Now that it is essentially out of production and made 3% more rated power. So if the Viper made 3% more power - it would no longer be "underpowered"?
ZR1 - out of production and has less HP. Less is less.
McLaren just redesigned the 12C (into the 650S) because of poor sales performance - other cars are sitting on lots too.
The base SRT with TrackPack has a power-to-weight ratio of 5.1lbs/hp. Thats the same as the SportBike in the original Gen2 vs SportBike comparo from the 1996 Car & Driver comparison. What other car in production has a P/W ratio like that (maybe the 650S when they start selling them)? Not the cars mentioned above - they are in the high 5s.
To me, the biggest disappointment of 2014 is the "new" 991 Turbo S. It has a trivial bump in HP and is NO faster than the 997. At a cost of crappier steering, more weight, and continued inferiority in the race track. The only reason to buy it is too keep up with the Jones' - not because you want to enjoy driving. Several different magazines have commented that it's performance is stagnant compared to the 997 - why is it so much more expensive? Because Porsche earns a 23% profit margin on every car it's sells and they appreciate your continued donation.
Lets stick with the facts, I'm tired of people remembering the past through rose colored glasses.
Enough ranting - but had to be said.
-Nick
FLL-B/W-GTS
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The new 991 Turbo S is improved in every way then the 997 Turbo S.Had 997 TS for 2 years and now have new 991 TS..While it may run the same or the 991 a bit faster then the 997,they both will run 10.60s to 10.90s all day long, every time(Bone Stock)...Best time for 14 TS is 10.62 @ 128.. Needless to say that is 4 or 5 car ahead of a Gen.5 at the end of the quarter,even with the best driver(Big Win).As for track,the TS will run with the TA Viper if ya put some Michelin Sport Cups 2 easily..
Vipers are cool/good,but current Porsches are at a whole different level for the customers and at the professional races...It is what it is... but your correct,Big $$$$$...
Vipers are cool/good,but current Porsches are at a whole different level for the customers and at the professional races...It is what it is... but your correct,Big $$$$$...
FLL-B/W-GTS
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By the way,before ya start defending the Viper. I am a huge Viper fan and have owned 3 of them for 17 years and and will buy a new one as soon as the either unlock that computer,DCT or add big HP...The current car has just not progressed enough from my previous Gen.4.
Enough internet racing,heading to the Test and Tune to do the real stuff....
Enough internet racing,heading to the Test and Tune to do the real stuff....
The stock Porsche turbo will not run with a TA on a road course. Fast? Yes. TA fast? No. And, if you put sport cups on the TA instead of the PZeros it would be even faster. The ACR tires were/ are much stickier than the PZeros.
Additional facts to note are that the Porsche is 2 inches longer, heavier, costs quite a bit more, and the maintainance and repair on it are off the charts expensive. It is also more expensive to insure.
Visually, there is no comparison at all. The Porsche has gotten too big and bloated and is an uninspired design. The Viper is a work of art.
Between the McClaren and the Porsche, if I had to choose one, I would take the McClaren even though it is more money.
Additional facts to note are that the Porsche is 2 inches longer, heavier, costs quite a bit more, and the maintainance and repair on it are off the charts expensive. It is also more expensive to insure.
Visually, there is no comparison at all. The Porsche has gotten too big and bloated and is an uninspired design. The Viper is a work of art.
Between the McClaren and the Porsche, if I had to choose one, I would take the McClaren even though it is more money.
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Its all dealer dependent .If your in the NY metro area and SERIOUS about a Gen 5 i will get you a test drive in a black on black or red (graphite stripe )just shoot me a PM a few hours before hand .The dealer in question historically ranks in the top 5 of total Viper sales
This is my point - the 991 is improved in every way except performance...so why is the leap from GenIV to GenV not enough when everything is improved INCLUDING performance? Sounds like hypocrisy....at least through the keyboard.
I have yet to see a Porsche Turbo put down a good time on a racetrack compared to either a Viper or a Z06, they always seem to lag by several seconds and its not just tires. It is a Grand Tourer that happens to be fast in a straight line, the GT3 is the real track car and is definitely faster on the racetrack.
It's fine to like the Porsche better, cars are purely about preference and the numbers are usually rather meaningless once you are behind the wheel. And I can understand why some would like the Porsche Turbo better, its an easy and comfortable car. It is also very consistent because the driver is not part of the equation. I've seen video of launch control and the car even self steers - holds a perfectly straight line during acceleration (it's on Roadandtrack.com). I just don't want a car where I am reduced to penalty weight instead of the Driver and I am willing to accept a slower 1/4 mile ET time in exchange for it (luckily the Vipers trapspeed is a bit faster than the Porsche's).
My intention is not to defend the Viper, more to infuse facts into the discussion. Empiric, unsupported statements bug me. Especially when they directly contradict facts.
But seriously, enjoy the car, just please be honest about the reason for your choices.
One question though, what are you doing at test and tune in a Porsche Turbo? Seems pretty easy to master the launch control sequence, is there anything else to learn?
-Nick
05Commemorative
Enthusiast
Might want to read some of the latest magazines where a Camaro z28 outperformed the 911 TS on the track. I guess says good things for the Z28, but ... Also, it is an AWD car, correct? I always think silly to look at a 1/4 time when comparing a AWD to rear drive car. End of day, both great cars, but the uber point was the new 911TS is a better car than its prior model, but not on a numbers sheet as far as performance. The new Viper is somewhat similar, much better improved car than before, but I get confused why so many think the computer should be opened up when it really hasn't been for the Gen4... Please tell me you have atleast driven one as I don't think the prior 3 you owned really has much relation to what the latest is. You would probably think the same for the 997 vs 991 comparison, right?
Had a '09 Carrera 'S' (PDK w/sports chrono) and the launch control did make for some very consistant 1/4 mile times. However, the basic design dated back DECADES! Porsche has mastered the art of 'incremental improvements' in the 911.(even the new vette now). I agree with you Nick, why don't these rules apply to the Gen V Viper?? The Gen V is better in every way imaginable than previous gens. In some areas way better! But the Porsche and vette get a free pas but the gen V doesn't??
VENOM V
Enthusiast
x 1,000,000.
Nick, thank you for accurately articulating what many of us have known and felt strongly. Those of us that actually OWN, have DRIVEN, and have TRACKED the Gen V know the truth. In my Viper, I have yet to track against a Porsche that could keep up with it. And I'm by no means a top driver, I've been tracking for a little over a year now but the Viper makes up for my lack of experience. In fact, the last two times I tracked my Camaro at Buttonwillow, I met up with a friend that has a GT3. After I beat him by a solid second, he asked me politely not to bring my Viper because he knew he would not stand a chance. Next time he brought R compound tires as that's what I had been running, and my fastest lap time was still a full second faster than his best. He loves his Porsche, but it's just not as fast as it should be for the $$$ he forked out. Granted, my Camaro is modified and his GT3 is stock, but I have a third of the money in my Camaro than he has in his Porsche and my Camaro weighs close to 3900 pounds. And my Viper was 2 seconds faster per lap than my Camaro last I ran there. That was during a cold spell, and I couldn't get enough heat in my Viper's tires, yet it was still a full 3 seconds faster than my friend's Porsche was on a more ideal day. The GT3 is their track car, faster on the track than the Turbo S. No competition. The GT3 RS is even better, their top track car. Just look at the lap times at Laguna Seca, that says it all. Looking at Motor Trend's testing, Randy Pobst behind the wheel of all cars: Viper TA 1:33.62, Porsche GT3 RS 1:36.77, Porsche 911 Turbo 1:42.51. These are not the latest generation Porsches as they have yet to be tested, partly because the GT3s kept going up in flames ( as you may know, Porsche halted production until they can fix it). I like Porsches, but at $199K for a reasonably optioned Turbo S that can't even keep up with my Camaro on the road course, let alone my Viper, I'll pass thank you.FLL-B/W-GTS
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Yes,I have driven the Gen.5s,it is improved over the Gen.4.Again,I like Vipers ,but the main issues I have ,is the locked computer and I would like a option of a DCT...As for the 991 TS,again the reason I bumped up is it is much better in everyway what the 997 TS.I am actually pleased that it runs the same times as a 997 TS stock(10.70/80s).I mean how much faster can a new car go with a warranty??Yes, correct,the TS is no track dog like a TA Viper,but for a all around performance car ,it holds pretty well...
Remember, my intentions is for the Viper is for it to improve and survive and for SRT to give us customers and potential customers what we want, NOT to bash the Viper...
I see the issues with SRT management as the problem, not the car it self. If they do not correct this situation, their will be not more new Vipers in a couple years. That is real..
Vipers companion on a race track is not a Porsche 911 Turbo S,it will be that new C7 Z07 coming out..
Remember, my intentions is for the Viper is for it to improve and survive and for SRT to give us customers and potential customers what we want, NOT to bash the Viper...
I see the issues with SRT management as the problem, not the car it self. If they do not correct this situation, their will be not more new Vipers in a couple years. That is real..
Vipers companion on a race track is not a Porsche 911 Turbo S,it will be that new C7 Z07 coming out..
Had one of our local car club meets today to benefit the women's shelter. A new member drove up in a Lexus LFA. Talked to him for about 30 minutes and he told me he tried to buy a new Viper. Said he walked in the dealership, told the salesman he was interested and would be paying cash....and was not allowed to test drive it because it had rained the previous day. He got pissed and walked out. The guy was interested, had f'ing cash, and the stupid salesman dropped the ball.
My buddys at the mags have been preaching to me for years your exact points In the price range the Gen 5 is in that buyer would much rather have an all around street car (top line build quality ,tech features )Market research data flat out says less in the 100 k price range less than 7% of all buyers will ever take their car to a roadcourse because they are afraid of wrecking it That means of all the Gen 5s sold to date less than 70 will EVER see a track .Most ******** Viper roadracers go right for the Gen 2 with the salvaged title instead of destroying a 100k car.
LOL a friend of mine years ago had to have a 360 Stradile (lightweight this made for the track ect )He paid 206k and ClAIMED he was going to track the thing ect because thats what Ferrarri made it for .That claim lasted approx 2 laps around a roadcourse as his 200k roadracer was pelted with track debre Its fun to internet race but in a real world senerio it just doesnt work out that way .In 98 VCA NJ went to Pocono for a track day.One of our members brought his new Lambo Diablo SV and in the heat of the moment hit reverse instead of 4th gear at over 100mph .No one was hurt thank God but the tranny was over 30k and since it happened at the track he had to pay for a majority of it out of pocket
TrackAire
Enthusiast
If we take out the status symbol of the cars make/manufacturer and go strictly by performance, I think you're right, the C7 Z06 will be the top dog, even at the strip.
"I am actually pleased that it runs the same times as a 997 TS stock(10.70/80s).I mean how much faster can a new car go with a warranty??"
How much faster can a car go.....the new C7 Z06 with auto trans will run the 1/4 mile faster than the 991 Turbo S car, even though it has all wheel drive. And, if the Z-28 is any indication of what the handling will be like, I don't know what the hell is going to touch it on the road course regardless of the price. A lot of consumers will put up with terrible service, weak dealership experiences, "USA made cars", etc if it is a world ******.
The problem is everybody looks at the single lap time of a vehicle that magazines and the press report. Regardless of the rumors I'm hearing that the C7 Z06 will be able to handle 20 minute track sessions in high temp conditions, I'll believe it when I see it when it comes to heat soak. But the magazines don't report or test cars based on 20 minutes of full on track time in the heat. I don't know about the current model GT-R, but 4 or 5 laps at Spring Mountain and the trans gets hot. Can the Porsche DCT handle those types of ******** runs? How many times can the Porsche trans handle "launch control" drag starts in a row? Will the oil temps stay in check? How do the brakes handle these 20-25 minute sessions that most of us run when doing track day events? Electronic diffs and rear steering may be a downfall when they get over worked especially since most stability and traction control is provided by the brakes countering the horsepower. It will be interesting to see what these new cars do in the hands of guys that open track since we are way harder on cars than anything the magazines seem to do. There is no way on the street that a car can even come close to what it is subjected to on the track.
Lets hope they open the purse a little to allow SRT to battle the C7 Z06.
How are you George .I too heard the exact same thing from what i understand the motor (direct injection ) with a pulley and tune easily hits the 750 plus mark and passes Chevys driveability and durability tests at that power level .As you said few will care about the Z06 shortcomings if the car can be had in the 80k range
