She's not getting slower, they're getting faster...

[Sean 96 McViper]

She\'s not getting slower, they\'re getting faster...

Hi everyone, first official nice day around here in a while so I put the my 96' RT/10 back on the road today. So, I took her to work and at lunch-time stretched her legs a little... I want to comment on how there are so many cars out there now with 325+ HP. I miss the days when a guy with a brand new Camaro could pass you going 10-20 MPH faster than you and all you had to do is stomp it to catch and pass him without any real difficulty. Today, I saw a Camaro coming up from behind, throttle wide open, so I let him pass me and then stomped it (I always thought it is cooler to come from behind and pull ahead), but instead of the usual easy pass I took a bit to catch him. I believe he had a new SS. (325 HP or so???) Today just about every manufacturer has a car that has over 325 HP. Sure I can pick on the ricers with the big-old tail pipes but that's just bullying, I want the out-and-out **********

of the "mussel-head" mobiles again. I know from a standing start I would still get the desired amount of margin of victory, but from a rolling start the utter ********** effect is gone. So, all that being said I think its time for an upgrade. My car is bone stock with smooth tubes, so anything will help. What is the best bang for my buck that is still warrantee friendly? I guess an extra 50 HP might give me that edge back?? Any comments??

-Sean

 

[MES]

Re: She\'s not getting slower, they\'re getting faster...

I was just thinking the same thing the other day. If you look back just 5 years ago there were not nearly as many quick cars around. The only cars you really need to watch out for are the LS1's (Camaro SS) aside from highly modified cars of course. They have the same engine as the Vette and put about 300 HP to the ground stock (very under rated). Considering you put about 350 to the ground, that's not a huge difference. A few exhaust mods on the Camaro and it gets closer. Most of the other high powered cars (300HP+) are heavy pigs (coups & Sedans) so you shouldn't have as much trouble with them. Next year the supercharged 390HP Cobra will be out, there is already reports of the prototypes running high 12's@110

The Gen I cars respond very favorably to exhaust upgrades (headers & cats) most seem to pick up 50 HP or so, but it also can get very loud. Might want to start with that.

 

[Matt M PA]

Re: She\'s not getting slower, they\'re getting faster...

Hi Sean...you may want to try the Snake-Oyl rear exhaust assembly (you have heard mine I think). It's gotta help.

 

[Tusc]

Re: She\'s not getting slower, they\'re getting faster...

Here is my $ .02 on the subject. I consider myself pretty well grounded and not TOO heavily biased when talking about any of these cars, so here goes.

I am REALLY curious to see what comes of the '03 Cobra. A car that light with the advertised power should be belting out low 12s with much better speeds than 110. My take on it is this, the current cobra 4v engine is rated at (and finally actually MAKES) 320hp. They are dropping the compression ratio about .5 and adding 8psi. With a rating of only 390hp out of that engine there are only two possibilities. Either Ford is under-rating their engines for the first time in a long time, or its just poorly designed. That being said, the car will be a garage tuner's dream. Steup up the rocker ratio, swap a slightly different cam, port/polish the eaton blower, change the pulley. Total investment of about $1000 should probably net at least another 150hp out of the car. Whether that will be reliable or not remains to be seen. But I would say that with that power rating and the fact that NONE of them will stay stock for long, we will be seeing these Cobras give LS1s and a few Vipers a run for their money to be sure.

For the LS1 community, what an engine! It's an econo-power box and it utilizes a lot of the same "outdated" technology that the Vipers use with the pushrod, 2-valve design. The real key to this one is the head design. All the other changes from the previous gen 1 and gen 2 chevy small blocks don't mean a lick by comparison. When you look at the dyno numbers, all LS1s are exactly the same. When you correct for drivetrain loss it comes out that the LS1 actually makes about 365hp. The current 2002 LS6 by that logic is making about 425. Now, these are not quite in the Viper range by any means. But if you take the 450hp rating of a gen 2 V10 and break it down by hp/cylinder and multiply that out by 8 the V10 is about on par with the LS1. The V10 making 360hp on 8 cylinders and the LS1 making 365.

Agreed, we're talking apples to oranges here. But what I am trying to say is that technology and ability has caught up. Of course, DC is pushing the Viper further on ahead again with the new SRT-10 and its 500hp.

Back to the complaint about Z28s and Trans Ams giving Vipers a run for the money. Obviously we're talking straight-line. And in those terms the F-bodies and Corvettes can pick up some quick times for small change. Stock LS1 Z28s and SSs are running LOW 12s and high 11s with nothing more than a very streetable 2800 convertor, 3.73s, and BDG drag radials. No juice. No heads and cam or blower. Stock as-delivered engine in a full-weight daily driver. Kind of impressive. Even my stock except for cat-back Corvette managed a 12.95 @ 109.52 with me babying the clutch and launching from only 1300 rpm!

Of course, with blower kits galore, at least 4 different twin turbo offerings, various head and cam gurus out there for these cars there are some seriously fast LS1s out there. One of my friends has a 1999 WS-6 trans am that he ran with a bone-stock engine and an ATI 7psi kit with full exhaust and a 2800 Vigilante convertor through stock gears. He had it tuned and then took it to the track and clicked off a 1/4 of 11.21 @ ***.xx (don't remember the trap speed) on drag radials.

With $1800 in their hand, LS1 owners can buy head/cam packages that are 100% emissions legal that put out 470hp right now. For an $8,000 investment my friend Scott is building a 427 small block with heads and cam to take 15psi of boost. But that is a totally different realm.

So stock Vipers are still not easy prey, but they are getting closer to the sites. Of course, there is an easy solution to this. Spend $3700 and get some headers, cat-back, and a BTR nitrous-propane system and NEVER be touched by anyone ever again. The Viper's V10 has amazing potential for modifications. That is one thing I have learned while researching the cars. It doesn't take much to make insane #s because the V10 is already the equivalent of a heavily built late-model V8. So don't get down on the snake because it seems to be drooping a little bit with age, get some V10 ****** for a few grand and put yourself WAY out of reach of the normal pack.

 

[King GTS]

Re: She\'s not getting slower, they\'re getting faster...

Definitely time to Upgrade Sean.

 

[Jason-Middle Tennessee]

Re: She\'s not getting slower, they\'re getting faster...

I think the best thing to do is to read Trey's list above

Now on the more serious note give Jon B a call at 360-837-3937.

Have you upgraded your read end yet? If not try going to a 3.55 ratio. I think there about 600 bucks.
Also how about a SMALL shot of NOS?

Good Luck in your venture

 

[MES]

Re: She\'s not getting slower, they\'re getting faster...

Good post Brett, a couple of points.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am REALLY curious to see what comes of the '03 Cobra. A car that light with the advertised power should be belting out low 12s with much better speeds than 110.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The actual numbers are still kind of just speculation but the car is heavy 3,650 lbs. Ford had to use a iron block rather than aluminum because it was too weak. The additional weight of the iron block + supercharger has made the car very nose heavy. But that don't matter a hole lot in straight line which is all 99% of the buyers will care about. There was a recent sighting at a local drag strip of the 2003 Cobra test vehicle and it was running high 12's@110&111 with stock tires.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>With a rating of only 390hp out of that engine there are only two possibilities. Either Ford is under-rating their engines for the first time in a long time, or its just poorly designed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again just speculation but both seem likely. The HP is underrated (Ford didn't want to go through that overrated problem again like the 99's) and the 4V engine is a high revving motor which Ford has detuned so it don't rev as high and makes peak power at a lower RPM thus you get less HP gained than expected by adding the blower.

Regardless with just a pulley & chip it's going to give many stock Vipers a very good run.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Stock LS1 Z28s and SSs are running LOW 12s and high 11s with nothing more than a very streetable 2800 convertor, 3.73s, and BDG drag radials.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LS1's with an automatic seem to be the hot set up at the drag strip. They pull very low ET's for the few mods made. Of course this is not really a fair comparison out on the street. A lightly moded LS1 that runs 11's at the track will get torn up pretty good on the street by a stock Gen II Viper from anything other than a dead stop.

You can make any car fast. If I wanted a cheap 10, 9, or 8 sec car I would have one right now, but you know what? I wanted a Viper and guess what's in the garage

 

[Tusc]

Re: She\'s not getting slower, they\'re getting faster...

Yeah, I'm working on the whole budget 10sec street legal ride right now. If I ever want to go faster I'll just have to pulley up and adjust the suspension to compensate. In the mean time....Viper on!

 

[ZX12]

Re: She\'s not getting slower, they\'re getting faster...

Regarding the upcoming Cobra, someone on the Lightning boards knows an 'insider' from the SVT division, and mentioned that the crank horsepower numbers are closer to the 430 horsepower range...I'm not sure how accurate the info is, but that's what I read. Things will get interesting when it rolls out!

 

[Sean 96 McViper]

Re: She\'s not getting slower, they\'re getting faster...

Wow!
Thanks for the great comments. So if I go with high-flow cats and a Snake-Oyl rear exhaust assembly like Matt has (I have heard his car and I like it) what are we looking at in terms of HP gain?

-Sean

 

[MES]

Re: She\'s not getting slower, they\'re getting faster...

Headers & cats will get you power, the rear assembly is more for sound. I have 75 Vipers listed with mods and HP on my site below. Unfortunately not many Gen I cars are listed

 

[Sean 96 McViper]

Re: She\'s not getting slower, they\'re getting faster...

MES,
Thanks for info, your site is very informative. Is there any difference between the GTS and RT engine in 1996? I think they are both rated at 415 HP, but the GTS's with no mods seem to be putting out more power that the RT's with slight mods according to your site.

-Sean

 

[Bill 96 GTS]

Re: She\'s not getting slower, they\'re getting faster...

The 96 GTS is the true Gen II engine rated at 450HP. The RT10 is the GenI with a couple of changes to give the few extra HP.

 

[Matt M PA]

Re: She\'s not getting slower, they\'re getting faster...

Bill is right..the '96 RT really still has the earlier engine. In '97 they got the GTS engine. What gave it the extra 15 ponies was the elimination of the side pipes. The rear exit exhaust could be louder and still meet drive-by noise limits.