Should the Viper ever have Traction control and/ or any other Gadgets?

[ledfoot]

Yikes.. Xanadu,I was J/K....(no bongloads for me) Glad you turned your life around.....Dave

 

[BadVenm]

My 04 SRT-10 is very much more civilized than the 1st Viper to roll off the line.

Dirk, no flame, I respect your opinion. But in my opinion your quote says it all.

If we wanted civilized, why did anyone ever buy the Gen I's to begin with. The Viper would have died with the Gen I's. Civilized is not what made the Viper a world famous car.

Raw, untamed, crude, overpowered, down right hard and scary to drive are the attributes that made the Viper the name plate to own if you wanted the best in the world.

Those who wanted civilized never bought a Viper, they stuck with civilized, a corvette.

I don't mind technology updates as long as they are optional and can be turned off.

But I sure as hell don't want a Viper that feels like I'm driving a corvette.

If the Viper goes from being scary to drive to anyone can drive, it's lost one of its first and biggest claims to fame.

Just one man's personal opinion.

 

[xanadu]

My 04 SRT-10 is very much more civilized than the 1st Viper to roll off the line.

Dirk, no flame, I respect your opinion. But in my opinion your quote says it all.

If we wanted civilized, why did anyone ever buy the Gen I's to begin with. The Viper would have died with the Gen I's. Civilized is not what made the Viper a world famous car.

Raw, untamed, crude, overpowered, down right hard and scary to drive are the attributes that made the Viper the name plate to own if you wanted the best in the world.

Those who wanted civilized never bought a Viper, they stuck with civilized, a corvette.

I don't mind technology updates as long as they are optional and can be turned off.

But I sure as hell don't want a Viper that feels like I'm driving a corvette.

If the Viper goes from being scary to drive to anyone can drive, it's lost one of its first and biggest claims to fame.

Just one man's personal opinion.

I respect your opinion too Bud. To me it sometimes seems like excuses to justify why DC is still behind part of the game in overall engineering. But raw, untamed and crude are not the optimum words to use when trying to sell something, especially to new consumers. That might be great words to sell another new model Viper to a past or current Viper owner, but not to the guy/gal who expects the latest and greatest in engineering. Something that is scary to drive can be good when specifically meaning the power and performance available from the machine. But something "hard to drive" could also be something that's hampering the driver's ability to use the power of the vehicle/engine to its ultimate value. For example, a dozen years ago, F1 regulations were becoming more and more strict in terms of engines, especially. The engineers in F1 began to look for other ways in making the cars faster around the track, besides aerodynamics, since the engines were so regulated. This led to the development of electronic management applications in different areas of the vehicle to increase the ability of the vehicle itself to perform at its maximum potential. These "gadgets" do not take the driver away from the car, these "gadgets" increase the overall performance capabilities of the car and only add to its "maximum potential". Take this new E-Diff from Ferrari for example. No matter what you think you can do better by being "the man" (no disrespect) in almighty control (no disrespect), of everything, even down to manually raising and lowering your window, you are not going to be able to manipulate the car in such a way to increase the traction to its maximum, making you the faster driver. Same thing with traction control and launch control. If anything, these Vipers could greatly use launch control because of the power and tire compound. It's almost like so many are willing to cut off their nose to spite their face. These little "electronic gadgets" don't hurt your driving experience, they enhance your driving experience. And you could always have the choice to drive the earlier model Vipers for that non-enhanced feeling whenever so desired. Which is more important though; having something so hard to handle and control because its "raw, crude and hard to drive", or something that its total performance package matches its engine output, allowing it to be many, many seconds faster around the track? I would rather have something that I'm working a just little less at keeping on the track through a corner and achieving 5 seconds less time with greater speed (and more speed equals more smiles) than stressing and fighting to not loose it all. Do you really think that the guys in their "gadget" assisted Ferrari's, Lambo's and Porsches' are really thinking about those gadgets when looking at the Vipers in the rear view mirrors? Of course not. They are smiling because the speedo they see is always several ticks higher. All that's really important is who wins, not who had to struggle the most and has hypertension from the added stress factor. I don't buy the "my car doesn't have those e-lectronic gadgets which make me more manly than you", either.

I've been sitting back for a while, watching, giving my thoughts occationally, listening, and trying to learn some about the Viper and what owners are saying and doing. I do not own one. My priorities right now are business, home, church, family, other equity, early retirement, etc. so I use this pre-purchase time to my advantage. I think the SRT-10 is a very mean, yet **** ride. It offers many performance numbers like the higher priced machines. That I do like. Living in Jacksonville and not having a local Ferrari or Lamborghini dealer I don't like. I don't want to transport or drive to Atlanta, Orlando or Lauderdale just for an oil change. Plus, being in Jax makes for almost a daily drive in these cars; miles add up fast. This brings me back to the Viper as a possible "best choice". The ultimate Viper, in my opinion, would have these performance enhancing options along with the powerplant. Notice I said "options". Nothing is better than having options.

I said it before, and I'll say it again, DC, in my opinion, better not be concerned with only selling to current Viper owners, but instead to all sport car consumers, or they will kill the Viper off. There are not enough current viper owners who will continue to buy each year's new model to keep this thing alive. I'm sure DC is honored by the loyalty of its owners, but that's not what will keep this car from becoming hisssstory.

So what is it that really scares the current Viper owners with this type of technology? I promise you, change is sometimes very sweet! Oh, especially when it keeps you competitive.

Peace, Kindness, Politeness and God Bless You All.

II Chronicles 7:12 &14

And the Lord appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him . . . . If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then I will hear from Heaven, and will forgive them their sin, and will heal their land.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Xanadu, you don't understand. Maybe someday....

It's not all about being fastest! We want a connection between car and driver. A '60s model 427 Cobra is the ultimate! It was raw, crude and untamed.

I would not have this car for a daily driver, but for fun only. Will an F430 beat it around a track? Maybe. I could even roll the windows up and have the AC on and the radio cranked to drown out the 'noise'.

We don't want high tech, we want raw (yes, Viper owners). If I want engineering and toys I'd buy a Mercedes SL55. There's a reason it weighs 4200+lbs! No emotion.

If the Viper died tomorrow, I'd be sad. BUT if it kept going and turned into a Mercedes, Corvette or Porsche I'd be sadder. Ferraris are still ok, just going a little overboard on the gadgets. IMHO

 

[xanadu]

Xanadu, you don't understand. Maybe someday....

We don't want high tech, we want raw (yes, Viper owners). If I want engineering and toys I'd buy a Mercedes SL55. There's a reason it weighs 4200+lbs! No emotion.

If the Viper died tomorrow, I'd be sad. BUT if it kept going and turned into a Mercedes, Corvette or Porsche I'd be sadder.

I guess I don't Freak. No big deal . . . to me at least. I think I do understand that many of you want that same "old style" Viper feel. I can grasp that concept. It's kinda like, well maybe anyway, the Harley guys who will only ride the old models because they want to feel the engine rattle their guts apart, smell the burning oil when they stop at a light, or have a reason to break it all down in the garage again, as opposed to the new Harleys with rubber mounted engines smoothing out the ride, no more oil spots on the garage floor and riding all season without even a tune up. Old enthusiasts want to fight oil leaks and broken parts, new purchasers want reliability with better performance and higher HP numbers.

By using the "we" word, and expecting DC to listen to only the "we" people, the Viper is as good as doomed. Those write ups from the test driving journalists are only going to get more and more worse for the Viper, IF it does not keep up with today's technology and engineering. Would you please at least agree on that? Just try to be open-minded as I'm trying to be as best I can too.

BTW, isn't it nice that we can have a debate together without the slamming and nasty language and making the other feel like an idiot? There's never any need for that mess. It's almost like we may both be Republicans

Okay, I'm back . . . What I'm trying to get at, is all this massive BHP is not going to matter in the end. When a driver cannot control it and its off the track in every turn, those journalists here and all around the world will kill it, and new consumer sales will indeed die. That will end the Viper. Loyalty is beautiful, but it doesn't keep business. Bigger and more business keeps business. And the best way to earn more business, is to keep the write ups making your product worthy of spending a dime on. Cookie cutter being or not, I think this Z06 is going to hurt Viper sales. I, trying to be outsidely objective here, as an owner of neither, see this happening. Don't let your passion and loyalty blind you. I did that with my ex g/f and she took me for $100,000. Those journalists will not write on loyalty sake, they will write on what gives the fastest heart rate and excitement. To me excitement will end quickly after I've lost her off the track several times while watching even a cheaper costing C6 Z06 drive by me again with another wave "hello", err, "goodbye".

As for the Mercedes SL55, even in AMG package, you are not comparing apples to apples. That is also built for elegance and luxury. Heavier weighted vehicles typically ride smoother and more gently on the roads. That's what Mercedes, Bentley, RR, AM are pretty much about. Those performance enhancing engineering features, such as aluminum frames just for 1 example, and such as traction control, for another example, did not add 1,000 lbs to the C6 Z06, or the Lamborghini Gallardo, or the Ferrari 360 Modena or CS models, F430, 575M, or even the 612 Scaglietti 2+2. What GM has done is taken the valuable knowledge derived from racing the Vette and being involved in the ********* racing world to develop a better driving machine, whether compared to an older Vette or to a Viper. The added performance enhancing "gadgets" would have never made it to a Vette or any other car if they actually did not really "enhance it's performance". Which brings me back to the fact, that if DC keeps everything the same ole same ole, there probably will not be anything past a Gen IV at best. You just cannot expect ONLY the current Viper owners to keep the sales alive down the road.

Here's another E-lectronic gadget that would be a major enhancement . . . The ZeroShift transmission. No extra weight and the ability to shift gears at full 100% throttle, DUDE! That would take the current SRT-10 down to 3.5 sec 0 - 60 or even better I bet, and shave seconds off lap times. Not to forget too how the journalists have claimed this feeling of upshifting at 100% throttle feels totally out of this world!!!

But, here's my deal, I do understand your passion, your purity, and above all, your loyalty. I really do. I can see your side of things, even though I don't totally understand it like you do, I can still relate somewhat.

Just don't be so quick to cut off your nose to spite your face, or you could end up getting what you really didn't want to see.

One more thing, don't think that technology and engineering will turn a Viper into a Vette, Merc or anything else. I don't expect to start body building and turning into Ah-Nold or being in the Chamber of Commerce will make me a Senator someday. But what technology and engineering will do is to keep the Viper competitive against all the rest, and I'm telling all the HP nuts out there, unless you are only going in a straight line all the time, which seems pretty boring, all the HP in the world will not make the Viper the best, but only the biggest in output. Just goes back to my p-p analogy again. Sorry. True though.

Peace Guys and Gals.

 

[xanadu]

Dang you El Freako! You changed your post after I did your quote! Caught ya there Pal.

Maybe you think Ferrari goes overboard with the E-gadgets, but they are adament about keeping their cars in line with the knowledge gained from F1 racing. That's half of the reason for racing, the other reason being marketing. When Enzo was alive, it was much more for the passion of racing, but those days are gone. It's strictly about business, quality and performance now. Did you read the article above about the new F430? The writer stated there was a CD player, but he never turned it on. Why? NOTHING, PERIOD, in 99% of sports auto enthusiasts sounds better than the note from a Ferrari exhaust. I like the V10 of the Viper, but I've never heard of someone being so ***-hum about the scream of a Ferrari V8 or V12 at 7,800 RPM's and climbing that they chose to roll up the windows and listen to some Billy Joel because its was a bore to the Viper (if I even was taking you correctly).

I also understand, really, about that much of the "we" who "want a connection between car and driver". But keep in mind, in my opinion, if DC chooses to only hear those "we" people such as yourself, it will kill the Viper sooner than later.

As for many of the other manufacturers who are not neccessarily in the F1 system, they are still using the same engineers as are the F1 teams. Lamborghini and Ferrari and McLaren Mercedes and Aston Martin and Audi . . . they all have their spys, they are occationally trading off engineers and the technology gets passed around. Plus, technology like SMG's and aluminum, titanium, carbon fiber, ceramics . . . some of this stuff is so old news. We know that DC knows about SMG's with the creation of the ME12. Those manufacturers are not stopping at anything to create better and better cars in every area of its engineering. Adding 100 or 150 more HP to the Viper isn't going to make it better. The majority of sports car enthusiasts are not just wanting something to take them "really fast" in a straight line. If that's all that matters, ehh, you might as well get an old Barracuda. Doesn't have any "gadgets" either. Those manufacturers, as many others, including GM, Nissan, etc. are building for performance sake, and not for purists sake.

I'm not trying to burst anyone's bubble on what makes for the best Viper to come, old school mechanics or new found technology, but if the Viper does not stay with the times, you'll just not see much more of the Viper line.

 

[BadVenm]

I respect your opinion too Bud.

Its Ryck, not Bud, Bud.

I would rather have something that I'm working a just little less at keeping on the track than stressing and fighting to not loose it all.

If you do not want to work at driving its no fun. I can get in a roller coaster and go fast, but if I'm not driving its no fun.

(and more speed equals equals more smiles)

NOT.

Sometimes its about putting along at 40 mph all by yourself, not another car in sight, dropping down one gear, dumping the clutch, stomping the gas, the tires breaking lose, the rear end of the Viper coming around sideways just a little, input some counter steering, jamming back into a higher gear, still mashing the gas, still roasting the tires, still sliding sideways just a little bit but now to the other side because the counter steering pulled you back but just a hair too much, now you're approaching 80 mph, you're running out of room before the turn comes up, you brake, you down shift, you mash the gas, you break the tires lose again, but this time because its the only way you can make the turn, you enter a four wheel drift, when you make the turn you mash the gas again and cap off around 80 mph and slow down. Then you check your underwear to see if it needs changed. Once you find that out, you start laughing your ass off until you cry. (been there done that! will do it a bunch more! )

It does not require much speed at all to have fun and make big smiles!

Do you really think that the guys in their "gadget" assisted Ferrari's, Lambo's and Porsches' are really thinking about those gadgets when looking at the Vipers in the rear view mirrors? Of course not.

Good question, next time I'm out with our local F-40, 288 GTO, 355 Spyder, 360 Spyder, and Lambo Gallardo owners that we drive around with, I'll hit the brakes and slow down long enough so they catch up and I'll ask them if they like their "gadgets." Not one of them can run like a Viper, they are all more style, less performance. The gallardo is getting close, but in real life, not paper specs, 0 to 100, the Viper eats their lunch.

hypertension from the added stress factor.

That's not hypertension, nor stress, this is called adrenaline. We want more of it, lots more of it! Get out of that corvette and try some on for once.

I don't buy the "my car doesn't have those e-lectronic gadgets which make me more manly than you", either.

I don't buy it either. I sure never made that statement, nor implied it. I just do not want a computer to control my enjoyment factor. If I wanted a computer to do all the driving, I'd have bought 3 corvettes, not 3 Vipers.

Now, as I stated before, I wouldn't mind tech advances, I just do not want them to control the car at all times. If there's an on/off button, I'm all good with it. And yes, I will use it, just not all the time.

 

[xanadu]

I respect your opinion too Bud.

Its Ryck, not Bud, Bud.

It's not Bud? Sorry Pal.

I would rather have something that I'm working a just little less at keeping on the track than stressing and fighting to not loose it all.

If you do not want to work at driving its no fun. I can get in a roller coaster and go fast, but if I'm not driving its no fun.

So Pal, you think that there is no work in driving around Sebring at a faster speed than my 84 yr old grandma? Do you think traction control, etc. is some sort of auto-pilot? Oh wait, I forgot. There's drifting. While the Vette's (and I really don't care for Vette's btw) are continuing to dominate in racing, LeMans and other racing events, there will be Vipers doing the drifting dance because a few purists could not imagine driving with any technology. Few years down the road, Viper owners will see their model end because the purists and/or SRT wouldn't accept modern engineering. Makes even better sense why DC doesn't work at getting back into racing the Viper when there's "drifting". They had a great thing years ago with impressive LeMans victories and some others, but that's old reminiscing. Besides, what's the fun in winning when you can "mash the gas and slide sideways".

(and more speed equals equals more smiles)

NOT.

Sometimes its about putting along at 40 mph all by yourself, not another car in sight, dropping down one gear, dumping the clutch, stomping the gas, the tires breaking lose, the rear end of the Viper coming around sideways just a little, input some counter steering, jamming back into a higher gear, still mashing the gas, still roasting the tires, still sliding sideways just a little bit but now to the other side because the counter steering pulled you back but just a hair too much, now you're approaching 80 mph, you're running out of room before the turn comes up, you brake, you down shift, you mash the gas, you break the tires lose again, but this time because its the only way you can make the turn, you enter a four wheel drift, when you make the turn you mash the gas again and cap off around 80 mph and slow down. Then you check your underwear to see if it needs changed. Once you find that out, you start laughing your ass off until you cry. (been there done that! will do it a bunch more! )

It does not require much speed at all to have fun and make big smiles!

Do you really think that the guys in their "gadget" assisted Ferrari's, Lambo's and Porsches' are really thinking about those gadgets when looking at the Vipers in the rear view mirrors? Of course not.

Good question, next time I'm out with our local F-40, 288 GTO, 355 Spyder, 360 Spyder, and Lambo Gallardo owners that we drive around with, I'll hit the brakes and slow down long enough so they catch up and I'll ask them if they like their "gadgets." Not one of them can run like a Viper, they are all more style, less performance. The gallardo is getting close, but in real life, not paper specs, 0 to 100, the Viper eats their lunch.

Viper eats their lunch? Mmm, maybe in that straight line that so many Viper owners only know or care about. By the way, is it really fair, well, maybe for you it is Pal, to compare a FIFTEEN YEAR OLD F-40, a TWENTY ONE YEAR OLD 288 GTO, a TEN YEAR OLD 355 Spyder and a SIX YEAR OLD 360 Spyder (and the Spyders were slower too). Of course the Gallardo is close. A bit newer than the others don't you think Pal?

hypertension from the added stress factor.

That's not hypertension, nor stress, this is called adrenaline. We want more of it, lots more of it! Get out of that corvette and try some on for once.

I don't care for the look of the Vette and the fact that it is cookie cut everywhere. But the truth is, the Vette will take the checkered on the track. I guess you think that nothing but a Viper can offer adrenaline, but I hope that your adrenaline will suffice because there won't be any trophies to hold. DC/SRT apparently knows this as well.

I don't buy the "my car doesn't have those e-lectronic gadgets which make me more manly than you", either.

I don't buy it either. I sure never made that statement, nor implied it. I just do not want a computer to control my enjoyment factor. If I wanted a computer to do all the driving, I'd have bought 3 corvettes, not 3 Vipers.

Cool, you'll probably also end up with nothing later than a Gen IV Viper unless SRT makes some modern changes. But don't worry, you'll always have the Viper that you wanted.

Now, as I stated before, I wouldn't mind tech advances, I just do not want them to control the car at all times. If there's an on/off button, I'm all good with it. And yes, I will use it, just not all the time.

On/off switches are good for all, because they offer <font color="red">options</font>. I hope that you will understand that I'm only trying to offer constructive criticism, not Viper bashing. I really like the Viper, but I see its doom looming on the horizon very easily too. Not everyone will agree with my thoughts, but lets all assume that no one wants the Viper to be retired either, right?.

Oh, and about the "I don't buy the <font color="yellow">"my car doesn't have those e-lectronic gadgets which make me more manly than you", either</font> statement, that was not referring directly to you. I started the post off trying to be polite directly to you Sir. The rest was a general observation on my behalf, not directed specifically to you or at you. I try to not cut people specifically, especially publically of all times. I tried to be polite, and a generally nice friendly guy, but I guess my friendliness just was not taken, Pal.

Peace, Kindness, Politeness and God Bless You All.

II Chronicles 7:12 &amp;14

And the Lord appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him . . . . If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then I will hear from Heaven, and will forgive them their sin, and will heal their land.

 

[xanadu]

BTW, before anyone wants to flame me, I do know about Tommy Archer's racing accomplishments.

Peace, Kindness, Politeness and God Bless You All.

 

[Janni]

Welcome to the "new generation" of Viper owner. See above post.

If this is the new target market, it'll kill the Viper faster than anything BadVenm or Viperfreak are looking for....

 

[redsrt03]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I want an accelerator pedal that opens the throttle when depressed. I want brake calipers that only apply pressure when the brake pedal is depressed."

Yeah, and I want real glass that lacerates when it breaks, none of that "*****" safety glass.







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I contributed my opinion to the thread question.

I did not address all safety devices, just the ones related to controlling accelerating forces. Relax dude.

Yo Man, I am way laxed. I was just having some fun with words (didn't you see the thumbs up?). Personally, my only complaint with the SRT is with its reliability. I don't mind that the damn thing will kill you, if you give it half a chance. I just get POd when an $85K car has the reliability of of a $15K Harley. Other than that, live hard, drive fast, and &lt;censored&gt; 'em all!


Like they said at BUD/S 110, "You don't have to like it, you just have to do it!"

 

[BadVenm]

Hello, McFly!!??

This post has never been about racing accomplishments. Like you said, if you know about the Archers, Mumford, Woodhouse, McCanns, then you know the Viper wins races against everything else from any manufacture.

This post is not about the Viper being some kind of end all be all supercar. The Viper is not the end all be all of cars. It's just one of a handful of really cool cars. But one that drives and feels more like a real racecar than any of the other cool ones. (which BTW, when my Viper is twenty one years old, it will still kick the living daylights out of F-cars, P-cars, and L-cars - straight or curves)

What this is about, is what will traction control do to the fun factor of street driving. It looks like most agree, if it is nondefeatable, it will ruin the fun factor. If it is a on/off button defeatable type, most have no problem with it. And that goes with any fun, weekend car, not just the Viper.

You think you know anything about what it takes to lap a car around Sebring, or lap a car at 198 mph around anything? You're barking up the wrong tree posing snotty short sided questions about being behind the wheel of a racecar. Been there - done that, made a living doing it.

Which by the way, in professional racing circles traction control has always been considered cheating and unethical in about every form of racing known to man. Other than Fake 1, I mean Formula 1, which is about the only form of road racing I do not like. Traction control, downforce, huge tires, computer controlled cars, no driver input, no passing, a monkey could drive those cars.

Traction control is a street tool only, it has no place in racing. And an undefeatable traction control system has no place in any car I own.

 

[AG98RT10]

What this is about, is what will traction control do to the fun factor of street driving. It looks like most agree, if it is nondefeatable, it will ruin the fun factor. If it is a on/off button defeatable type, most have no problem with it. And that goes with any fun, weekend car, not just the Viper.

Traction control is a street tool only, it has no place in racing. And an undefeatable traction control system has no place in any car I own.

Good points. I don't see how anyone can deny that fully defeatable traction/handling control is needed on Vipers. The "pros" can always turn it off (and I mean DC should make it FULLY defeatable). But the people who just managed to acquire one of these fantastic machines may be saved from their "newbieness." (And I'm not sure how much "fun" I should be having on the street, anyway. Maybe there are a few seasoned pros out there who can power slide at 80 around utility poles and other vehicles, but I know enough to know I'm not one of them!)

Gotta remember the Viper is a STREET car. Street driving needs a button that the driver has to push consciously (Vettes you have to hold it down for three seconds, IIRC) that acknowledges "Hey, I'm taking full control (and responsibility) for my inputs to this beast! I'm awake and alert and ready to accept the consequences for my actions." You might argue that's what you should always say whenever you turn an ignition key, but there is a knowledge gap between what a new owner would like to think his/her capabilities are, and the reality of their ability to handle a beast like a Viper.

I speak from experience - my own and others. A fellow in the next town wrecked his new snake within a couple of weeks of getting it - rolled it up on a hiway ramp - just having fun and easily could have killed two people, but was lucky (that time). I lost the rear end (and somehow caught it again) making a shift to third at about 80 mph when I'd had the car maybe a month... Yes, it was stupid - cold night and tires a little hard - but the point is these cars will lose it with little or NO warning, something owning a Vette for several years did NOTHING to prepare me for (and yes, I switched off active handling at times).

I'm doing what I can to get track time and learn more about the car's (and my) limits - but this takes time. Meanwhile, I try to keep it reasonable, especially on the street. It's very easy to get carried away by the sheer exuberance of that climbing tach. And this is not to say that active handling will save every fool from his folly, but it does at least improve their odds a bit.

Defeatable handling controls are a must in high performance street autos. Let's hope DC wisens up before it's too late. Hate to see these great machines balled up...there aren't that many of them!

 

[xanadu]

Hello, McFly!!??
This post has never been about racing accomplishments. Like you said, if you know about the Archers, Mumford, Woodhouse, McCanns, then you know the Viper wins races against everything else from any manufacture.

This post is not about the Viper being some kind of end all be all supercar. The Viper is not the end all be all of cars. It's just one of a handful of really cool cars. But one that drives and feels more like a real racecar than any of the other cool ones. (which BTW, when my Viper is twenty one years old, it will still kick the living daylights out of F-cars, P-cars, and L-cars - straight or curves)

What this is about, is what will traction control do to the fun factor of street driving. It looks like most agree, if it is nondefeatable, it will ruin the fun factor. If it is a on/off button defeatable type, most have no problem with it. And that goes with any fun, weekend car, not just the Viper.

You think you know anything about what it takes to lap a car around Sebring, or lap a car at 198 mph around anything? You're barking up the wrong tree posing snotty short sided questions about being behind the wheel of a racecar. Been there - done that, made a living doing it.

Which by the way, in professional racing circles traction control has always been considered cheating and unethical in about every form of racing known to man. Other than Fake 1, I mean Formula 1, which is about the only form of road racing I do not like. Traction control, downforce, huge tires, computer controlled cars, no driver input, no passing, a monkey could drive those cars.

Traction control is a street tool only, it has no place in racing. And an undefeatable traction control system has no place in any car I own.

I know about these guys in racing, but where are they? What races are they winning, other than Archer, who as best I could find and heard of, actually only won 1 race (Portland)? Granted, he did do well, in his one series (Speed TV GT). But where are the Vipers in Trans Am Series? Oh, you do have Ross Murray in SCCA Trans Am, trying to win against the absolute dominating Jaguars. Where are the Vipers in ALMS? Umm, absent. Where are the Vipers in FIA GT? Well, there are a couple in there, getting their butts wiped with Ferrari 550M's, Lister Storms, Saleen S7's, and in 2004 some Murcielago's too. Where are the Vipers at LeMans? Last year, MIA. 2003, well, you did have a couple of Viper teams, Larbre Competition at least doing a decent job with a 16th overall (with an SMG gearbox as well, oh, wait, SMG, that's an evil electronic gadget), but still behind several other GT's and GTS', like Corvettes, Ferraris and some GTS Porsches. Oh, BTW, Larbre has left the Viper for a Ferrari 550M.

Now, as for Fake 1, ha ha ha. I like that. Check the history books on F1 and CART/IRL. Time after time after time after time, F1 drivers have <font color="red">retired</font> from F1 racing to come and drive CART/IRL (mainly), Rally, FIA, ALMS, etc.. They get some age behind them, loose the nerve and youthful skill they once had, and hang up F1 to race in the other leagues where they can be competitive again. Only once can I remember ANYONE ever doing a slightly decent job from coming CART/IRL to F1, and that was Montoya. And he really hasn't been much at all these last couple of years. Oh, you might want to check the dollars these guys are getting paid too. Who are the highest paid drivers in the world? BY FAR? F1, Pal. Have you even seen what the steering wheel looks like on an F1 car? Those guys have 100 different configurations to set during a race. Do you realize that at the speeds and incredible acceleration they are achieving that just the 1 single missed gearshift at the very most optimum moment would cause them to loose the distance of 2-3 hundred yards? "No driver input and no passing . . . and monkeys" . . . You really don't know the first single thing about F1 now do you? These drivers, err, "monkeys" are making $20 million to over $50 million per season to race, JUST FROM THEIR TEAM! Schumacher is making over $120 MILLION a year, A YEAR, and you think that's MONKEY feed, right? Ha! I'm sure they take naps too while they are driving for those chicken feed salaries. <font color="red">Them big ole tires make it easier than Dale Jarrett's circle rac-sun any day too.</font> <font color="brown">~Spit~</font> The reason it seems like there is no passing, is because the tracks are enormously huge, but then, these cars are reaching unreal speeds in no space and time at all. Heck, a 2003 F1 Ferrari beat a freaking Fighter Jet in 1 out of 3 races for acceleration (<font color="red">http://espn.go.com/rpm/f1/2003/1211/1683710.html?partnersite=espn</font>). The tracks are huge, the cars are extremely fast accelerating or decellerating, cornering, maneuvering, &amp; the pit stops are so critical that 1 second in a race with either 2 OR 3 stops could be the difference between first place and 10th place. Through an F1 race, with the track size, the pits stops at different times, and to a large degree the individual team's competitive abilities whether in aerodynamics, suspension set up, engine build, driver talent, pit crew abilities and so on, these things can all add up to seemingly make the cars greatly spread out, when generally, the top 4 to 6 or 8 are within milliseconds at the checkered. When the 4th place driver is taking the last turn in the race at 40 or 50 mph, is 3 football fields back from the winner taking the checkered at 185 mph, and that 4th place driver makes up that distance in a half second . . . there's nothing fake about it. How old was Emerson when he retired from CART? In his 50's I think. To make it past 35 in F1 is a miricle, then you just retire and maybe get bored, so maybe then drive some CART/IRL with a few old F1 guys and the rest who could never keep up in F1.

So really, how many F1 races have you followed, and how many seasons have been watched? How much do you really understand about F1 yourself, as opposed to just following along with what the chewin' club tells you? In every single time that I've heard a NASCAR driver speak of F1, they have nothing but complete awe! I don't know how many times I've heard a NASCAR/CART/IRL driver say that they would love to drive an F1 car. Some might chew a bit and be from the very back woods of Carolina, but they all know F1 isn't fake and from there its obviously all down hill.

As for my stance on "electronic gadgets", NOT just traction control . . . make traction control available but 100% defeatable. Make SMG's an option. Learn how systems like E-Diff work, which no driver can physically manipulate better themselves, and apply them to all Vipers.

Peace, Out.

ps, What are you, psychic? I don't think todays Viper 20 years from now will do anything to that days Mitsubishi Eclipse , much less than a Ferrari, etc. Jeez, today's Viper is faster and better than a Gen I, correct? Sounds like this new C6 Z06 is going to be quicker too, correct? I'd stop thinking about today's Viper 20 years down the road and be thinking more about today's Viper this year, cause the only thing Viper is going to be the "King" of is a few more HP, but HP will not give you really much to brag about, except HP. Just makes ya feel like your more endowed I suspect. Jeez. Whatever. Also keep in mind, the mind set of Ferrari has never been to be "the fastest" production cars. It's more about technology and performance derived from F1, winning in F1, and selling history. Ferrari has its wins set with not always being the fastest car on the track in a straight line, but the best overall. Ferrari has one of the world's best resale values. Some like the California 250 GT can pull down $1.5 to 2 million. Enzo's with thousands of miles on them are still fetching over $800,000. So are 288 GTO's and F-40's in the $400,000 plus range. Heck, a POC Mondial with 20,000 miles will still get $50,000 and I think it only sold for $60,000. I've seen Vipers dropping as much as 20% (I believe that's about right) with just 2,000 miles on them. Anyway, if Vipers are still around in 5 years, it too will be an improvement, speed wise at least I assume, over whatever you have now (stock for stock of course).

 

[xanadu]

Good points. I don't see how anyone can deny that fully defeatable traction/handling control is needed on Vipers. The "pros" can always turn it off (and I mean DC should make it FULLY defeatable). But the people who just managed to acquire one of these fantastic machines may be saved from their "newbieness." (And I'm not sure how much "fun" I should be having on the street, anyway. Maybe there are a few seasoned pros out there who can power slide at 80 around utility poles and other vehicles, but I know enough to know I'm not one of them!)

Gotta remember the Viper is a STREET car. Street driving needs a button that the driver has to push consciously (Vettes you have to hold it down for three seconds, IIRC) that acknowledges "Hey, I'm taking full control (and responsibility) for my inputs to this beast! I'm awake and alert and ready to accept the consequences for my actions." You might argue that's what you should always say whenever you turn an ignition key, but there is a knowledge gap between what a new owner would like to think his/her capabilities are, and the reality of their ability to handle a beast like a Viper.

I speak from experience - my own and others. A fellow in the next town wrecked his new snake within a couple of weeks of getting it - rolled it up on a hiway ramp - just having fun and easily could have killed two people, but was lucky (that time). I lost the rear end (and somehow caught it again) making a shift to third at about 80 mph when I'd had the car maybe a month... Yes, it was stupid - cold night and tires a little hard - but the point is these cars will lose it with little or NO warning, something owning a Vette for several years did NOTHING to prepare me for (and yes, I switched off active handling at times).

I'm doing what I can to get track time and learn more about the car's (and my) limits - but this takes time. Meanwhile, I try to keep it reasonable, especially on the street. It's very easy to get carried away by the sheer exuberance of that climbing tach. And this is not to say that active handling will save every fool from his folly, but it does at least improve their odds a bit.

Defeatable handling controls are a must in high performance street autos. Let's hope DC wisens up before it's too late. Hate to see these great machines balled up...there aren't that many of them!

AG98RT10 . . . Totally Agree!


God Bless.

Dang, that was my shortest post ever!

 

[Bwright]

Xanadu,

There is a mountain of empirical evidence to strongly and easily support your POV. You are in fact solidly correct in your suggestions and your observations. However, around here you are going to find that common sense is rarely common and emotion is in far greater supply than facts. Listening to some of the feeble nonsensical arguments in favor of "keeping the Viper real" if you will by holding obviously beneficial technology back reminds me that few people in fact get the car business or have taken the time to learn the facts about the topic at hand. Listening to them is a lot like listening to someone preach that the F/A-22 Raptor is not a true air superiority fighter because it does not conform to the technical standards of a WWI era Sopwith Camel

BTW, congratulations on turning your life around.

 

[Early93Viper]

Xanadu,

There is a mountain of empirical evidence to strongly and easily support your POV. You are in fact solidly correct in your suggestions and your observations. However, around here you are going to find that common sense is rarely common and emotion is in far greater supply than facts. Listening to some of the feeble nonsensical arguments in favor of "keeping the Viper real" if you will by holding obviously beneficial technology back reminds me that few people in fact get the car business or have taken the time to learn the facts about the topic at hand. Listening to them is a lot like listening to someone preach that the F/A-22 Raptor is not a true air superiority fighter because it does not conform to the technical standards of a WWI era Sopwith Camel

BTW, congratulations on turning your life around.

But that’s why you buy a Viper for the emotion. You can't justify buying a Viper for any other reason. Anyone who has a Viper bought it for just that the emotion, the specific emotion: passion.

You could buy a regular car for a tenth of what you could a Viper. It would work just as well or better than a Viper. It could get you from point A to point B with trunk space to spare. This is just good "COMMON SENCE"

I am sorry buy when it comes to the Viper I will take the emotion f#ck the "common sense". Thank God Dodge said the same thing.

 

[Snakester]

The Viper can easily have the same amount of passion as it does today and still include airbags, ABS, and traction control.

You certainly don't want to lose any fun of the Viper to making it safer, but if there is no downside in driving enjoyment, and it helps save dozens (if not hundreds) of Vipers from being prematurely destroyed then why not?

 

[BadVenm]

Been out of town and away from the computer, so I couldn't see numb nuts, aka xanadu, nonsense reply.

HELLO, McFly... When did the amount of money a Fake 1 driver makes EVER have anything to do with if traction control should be on a street Viper? Why would a man of god care about money and materialist things any way? Any monkey could drive those computer controlled monsters. Yes, I too would love to drive one, I wouldn't want to race one.

It never fails to amaze me how all the "Born Agains", hey look at me I'm am a man of god, I sit in the front row of church idiots are the most hypocritical liars and thieves out in the general population.

Any respectful religious person I know would never spout the insulting garbage that you have, xanadu. You need to look in the mirror, you're not the image of god that born agains and Christians are supposed to be.

I thought the scripture was something like, "if hit on one cheek, turn the other," not "if the world does not conform to your way of thinking, strike out and try to make yourself look better than others???" Is god about making your self appear superior to others? Is god about making fun of others who's opinions differ from yours? Is that something new in religion? I must have missed out when they handed out the new bible that teaches to do unto others that which you do NOT want done onto you. I'm sure you've made brownie points with god in these posts.

Go back to whatever church, temple, or what ever it is you meditate in and act like you are living better through a cleaner lifestyle and by treating your fellow man with care and compassion just like god asks of you and that you have so whittingly shown on here.

Now, go ahead and spout some more born again insults that will show your superiority over the rest of us and show what a great born again you are. I'm sure the way you've acted in your posts is exactly how Jesus treated others when he was here walking among us. You are making a fine recuriting tool and example for all born agains and Christians to be proud of, pal.

Dirk and I (which is the post you jumped in the middle of) have had opposing points of view and we've been able to debate them with passion based on our own points of view without getting personal or insulting. You come in here, quote a post and turn it personal, I'm sure just the same way Jesus might have responded to someone opposed to his point of view might I add. I'm not even sure if you own any sports car, let alone a Viper. Which begs the question do you know what the hell you are talking about, not in the book smart way, anyone can read car and driver, but real life experiance way, being behind the wheel of one of these beasts and knowing what it will and will not do and how it will respond to your input, where is the edge, when will I lose it crash and die kind of way. Learn to debate and voice opinions without getting your feelings hurt and turning things personal. I'm mad at myself for lowering myself to your level, I typically do not let meaningless smack get under my skin. I'm done wasting my keyboard on your intellectual Christian like and inspiring pearls of wisdom.

Now as for the topic...Does the Viper need to have nav systems, elect seats, finger print door locks, turning head lights, heads up display, heated seats, heated mirrors and the like??? No, its wasted space, added weight, that stuff will not help sell more Vipers. Its money spent on things that could have been spent updating the drive train....say a Hemi V-10 for example.

Techonlogy is fine, say defeatble traction control for example, but leave the choice to use it up to the driver.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Xanadu,

There is a mountain of empirical evidence to strongly and easily support your POV. You are in fact solidly correct in your suggestions and your observations. However, around here you are going to find that common sense is rarely common and emotion is in far greater supply than facts. Listening to some of the feeble nonsensical arguments in favor of "keeping the Viper real" if you will by holding obviously beneficial technology back reminds me that few people in fact get the car business or have taken the time to learn the facts about the topic at hand. Listening to them is a lot like listening to someone preach that the F/A-22 Raptor is not a true air superiority fighter because it does not conform to the technical standards of a WWI era Sopwith Camel

BTW, congratulations on turning your life around.

Looks like another person with a 100% opposite opinion about what the Viper is and/or should be. EVERY CAR HAS A MISSION. It's up to the guys who work at major auto manufacturers to decide what the car is going to be, AND how much they compromise their ideals to meet budgets or other people in the companies DIFFERENT ideas about what the car should be.

Bob Lutz obviously said NO COMPROMISE in designing the new Z06. I like the car, but it has a different mission than the Viper. Bob says give it every high tech advantage. So do the Porsche Carrera guys and the Ferrari F430 guys. The Viper guys (same Lutz) said build an emotional car. NOT AN F-22, Not an F-16, not even an F-15(old). BUILD A WWII fighter! Something a real pilot can fly with feeling.

It's not feeble to argue the point Bwright. You (in past posts) seem to really believe there's a better Viper to be built. That car in my opinion would stay as true to it's mission (simple, powerful, number 1) as possible, since no one else out there seems to be trying to do it. It may fail, time marches on and someday we'll all ride in cars, no more drivers needed. Sad.

I'd really like to fly a P-51 Mustang (or even a Sopwith Camel), the sounds and smells. The passion and history. Knowing it took a real man with guts to tame the beast, or die. An F-22 might fly itself. Like a video game with G-forces. No doubt both thrilling rides. I hope people keep the old planes flying forever. I also hope we still have a choice in which kind of car is available 20 years from now.

Empirical Data and POV in the same sentence. Your ED is BS to ME.

 

[Rocket65C]

what's the fun in winning when you can "mash the gas and slide sideways".

Now that's funny.

Traction control with an On/Off switch-definitely an option I would chose.

 

[dirk989]

I also would love to fly a Camel (or a SPAD or a Fokker tri-plane) just for pure fun. I wouldn't think about using the Camel or even the P-51 for real life transportation though. Or anything more than a hobby/joyride.

I have the same logic with cars. The more primitive they are, the more they have to be used for joyrides or hobbies rather than actual transportation. If you keep putting more and more hp in a car you can argue, "mine is bigger than yours", but you end up with a car that is nearly un-drivable for any kind of regular use. I understand that some of those who bought early Vipers did so because of the rawness. I also believe that some of them bought the early Vipers not BECAUSE of the rawness, but IN SPITE of the rawness. Few people would want a stripped bare beast to drive Viper as their usual mode of transportation. A nice toy, but if you are going to 'drive' it, you'll probably want windows and a roof. If you are going 30 miles on a Sunny day then the fear of swapping ends and/or dying could be exciting. However, if you are driving it to work on a daily basis or bringing your kid home from school or even taking a 100 mile trip, then that fear is no longer the fun kind of fear.

BadVenm, I respect your viewpoint. I understand that a lot of you want a more raw Viper. I believe a lot of people want a more refined Viper. Either way, the Viper is an incredible car. I doubt that DC will give it to us both ways though.

My point was, that for several reasons, DC will be putting the gadgets on. Some people will like and some won't. I just expect that is the way it is going to be.

I like having the 'Viperness' that I can use nearly everyday and not just on weekends or in good weather. I'll accept some gadgets and SOME refinement so I can drive my Viper year round. A little safety or driveability won't make a Viper into a Camry or even a Vette.

Dirk

 

[xanadu]

Been out of town and away from the computer, so I couldn't see numb nuts, aka xanadu, nonsense reply.

HELLO, McFly... When did the amount of money a Fake 1 driver makes EVER have anything to do with if traction control should be on a street Viper? Why would a man of god care about money and materialist things any way? Any monkey could drive those computer controlled monsters. Yes, I too would love to drive one, I wouldn't want to race one.

It never fails to amaze me how all the "Born Agains", hey look at me I'm am a man of god, I sit in the front row of church idiots are the most hypocritical liars and thieves out in the general population.

Any respectful religious person I know would never spout the insulting garbage that you have, xanadu. You need to look in the mirror, you're not the image of god that born agains and Christians are supposed to be.

I thought the scripture was something like, "if hit on one cheek, turn the other," not "if the world does not conform to your way of thinking, strike out and try to make yourself look better than others???" Is god about making your self appear superior to others? Is god about making fun of others who's opinions differ from yours? Is that something new in religion? I must have missed out when they handed out the new bible that teaches to do unto others that which you do NOT want done onto you. I'm sure you've made brownie points with god in these posts.

Go back to whatever church, temple, or what ever it is you meditate in and act like you are living better through a cleaner lifestyle and by treating your fellow man with care and compassion just like god asks of you and that you have so whittingly shown on here.

Now, go ahead and spout some more born again insults that will show your superiority over the rest of us and show what a great born again you are. I'm sure the way you've acted in your posts is exactly how Jesus treated others when he was here walking among us. You are making a fine recuriting tool and example for all born agains and Christians to be proud of, pal.

Dirk and I (which is the post you jumped in the middle of) have had opposing points of view and we've been able to debate them with passion based on our own points of view without getting personal or insulting. You come in here, quote a post and turn it personal, I'm sure just the same way Jesus might have responded to someone opposed to his point of view might I add. I'm not even sure if you own any sports car, let alone a Viper. Which begs the question do you know what the hell you are talking about, not in the book smart way, anyone can read car and driver, but real life experiance way, being behind the wheel of one of these beasts and knowing what it will and will not do and how it will respond to your input, where is the edge, when will I lose it crash and die kind of way. Learn to debate and voice opinions without getting your feelings hurt and turning things personal. I'm mad at myself for lowering myself to your level, I typically do not let meaningless smack get under my skin. I'm done wasting my keyboard on your intellectual Christian like and inspiring pearls of wisdom.

Now as for the topic...Does the Viper need to have nav systems, elect seats, finger print door locks, turning head lights, heads up display, heated seats, heated mirrors and the like??? No, its wasted space, added weight, that stuff will not help sell more Vipers. Its money spent on things that could have been spent updating the drive train....say a Hemi V-10 for example.

Techonlogy is fine, say defeatble traction control for example, but leave the choice to use it up to the driver.

<font color="green">PLEASE NOTE: THIS POST IS NON VIPER RELATED. IF YOU ONLY WANT VIPER RELATED, PLEASE SKIP THIS POST AND MOVE TO THE NEXT ONE. THANK YOU.</font>


Numb Nuts McFly here.

Mr. Venom,

What did I do to make you so angry at me? When did I ever insult you on such a personal level? Was it when I called you Bud? Was it when I called you Pal? I called you Bud because I was just trying to be friendly on here, like saying "Hey Dude", "Hey Man", "Hey Friend", "Hey Buddy". "Hey Pal" was just another way of me trying to lighten things up and be friendly without being condescending to you or anyone.

I told you specifically that I had started that first post off with a quote from you, but that the post mainly was not directed to you at all, but was a general analysis on my behalf. I'm sorry that I used your quote in full, or even in part, as it came across as the entire post of mine was directed to you in your eyes, and maybe others as well. Either way, I am sorry that you took it as such. As I have said, I stated once before that it was not directed specifically to you.

I don't know what it is that you are accusing me of doing so wrongly against you. I am sorry if I sounded condescending towards you with questions about your knowledge of Formula 1. That was not meant to be an insult. If it was taken that way, then again, I am sorry.

The reason why I asked if you knew how much the F1 drivers were making is simply because you claimed that they have no input in the driving of these cars. If there was no driver input, and if they were just auto-pilot vehicles, then why would they pay them so much, more than any other professional driver series out there, when they could pay bananas with monkeys as drivers? Last I ever saw and heard, Michael Schumacher is actually the highest paid athlete in the world paid by an employer. I was NOT trying to insult or be condescending to you by asking how much you knew about F1. Those drivers actually have more input in the cars setup than in any other form of racing BECAUSE of all of the high technology features that are there. Each driver drives his car differently, and everything is fine tuned to each persons preference, including traction control levels just for one. You just can't be a monkey to drive F1 because it takes not only being the best driver in the world to operate the highest performing cars in the world competitively, but it practically takes a PhD in Engineering and Physics to understand the complexity of the cars and how to set them up to best suit [your] driving tastes. Of course each team has MIT's number of engineers and physicists there to work with the drivers, but still it takes quite the intelligence to understand how they function and how to use this engineering to its best value.

Now, what I always expect is to be disrespected for my Christianity. So I'm not surprised that you jumped on that. Christians understand this and accept this as part of standing out publically for our beliefs, and quite honestly, the rewards of being a Christian would out weigh the personal attacks of 100 trillion people. I know where my eternity lies, and trust me, eternity is a forever word. It's never ending. My eternity matters more to me than anything, including the attacks that sometimes occur from people. I am not a "man of God" as you have stated. I am a "child of God". He is my Father in Heaven. I am a Christian, but I am also a human as are all Christians, and none of the Christians that I have associated with ever put ourselves as being better than anyone else, Christian or not. We <font color="red">all</font> fall short of the glory of God as the Bible says. Christians are not perfect, contrary to the belief of some that Christians see themselves as such. We absolutely are not. If anything, we tend to persecute ourselves more than non-Christians do because we know right from wrong and a Christian has that guilt of doing something wrong which we know only hurts us as people. That simply says, that yes, Christians do still sin, and we do still make wrongful mistakes that we shouldn't make, when we know better. It's impossible for anyone to not have sin in their lives, and the Christians I am around all believe this because we know that we ourselves are NOT perfect. What we are is born again by the blood of Jesus Christ, who died on the cross to save us from our sins so that we could have acceptance into Heaven for eternity. Sin cannot enter in Heaven, because it is a pure place, but the blood of Christ covers our sins, and makes us pure upon our day of judgment, whether that day is our own personal death, or whether that day is the second coming of Christ. The Bible says that <font color="red">"he who has the Son shall have everlasting life, but he who does not have the Son shall not have everlasting life." </font>This is part of what we Christians call "The Romans Road". The book of Romans gives many verses about becoming a Christian and what it means to be a Christian.

It may be interesting to note that the book of Romans was written by Paul, who most Christians believe was the greatest evangelist in history, as well as the greatest author of the Bible. Paul was originally known as Saul, and as Saul, was one of Christ's greatest persecutors, before becoming a believer in Him. Saul was evil and hated Christ with terrible passion. Then Saul's life turned around, his name was changed to Paul and as Paul he wrote the bulk of the New Testament and what he wrote was unbelievably powerful, at least to Christians that is.

But in <font color="red">Romans 6:23 it says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." </font>When I ultimately realized what this meant, eternal life, I kind of knew that I had been afraid of what would really be out there beyond death. As crazy as some may see this, I did once have an after life death experience many years ago, in 1996. I was suffering from massive depression, and was drinking heavily. I came home from work, which at the time I was living with my Mom and sister after moving back from San Antonio and having been fired from a job out there. My sister had some xanax and offered me two to help me sleep, so I took them. I knew that my Mom had ******, and took 2 or 3 of those as well. Then I sat down in front of the TV, reclined back and downed 6 twenty ounce cans of beer in less than 45 minutes. A few minutes later, I was sitting there, thinking to myself, "your heart is slowing down", "your heart is slowing down", and it was. I then remember thinking, "your not breathing, your not breathing, your not breathing, your not breathing" and I had stopped breathing. Then I was standing there, in front of myself, looking down at myself in that chair, all reclined out with the lights from the TV flashing off of myself in the darkness. That's all I saw, but maybe that's all I was supposed to see, maybe that's all I NEEDED to see to know that there is life after death. What I remember, is being there for about 15, maybe 20 seconds, and then I remember thinking, as if I had not been thinking at all, ANYTHING at all before then, but thinking, "Breathe". I took in a deep breath, and I was there again, sitting back in the chair and seeing the TV in front of me. That's really all I can remember, and I guess I passed out then, because I woke up the next morning still in the chair. You know, I'm really risking some great humiliation for sharing this with all of you who read it, but humiliation means nothing if just one person who reads this will believe me, and know what it means to become a Christian. That is worth anything to me. So when I see this verse, <font color="red">Romans 6:23</font>, I know without any doubt whatsoever, that I will be with Christ some day in Heaven, that these words are true, and that life after death is real. What matters is where will life be, after death?

I have briefly shared before that my life has changed recently. Some of you were pretty kind to me in return, and I really thank you for your kind words and sentiments. The words from those people were very sweet, so again, thank you. But just under a year ago, my life way crumbling fast, real fast. I was doing drugs occationally, like *** and *******. On Valentine's night last year, in under 1 hour, I did 10 lines of premium ******* in the best hotel in Ponte Vedra Beach, with people who I should not have ever been around. No, not the kind of people you might think. These were some of the very elite of Jacksonville. Having a bit of hypertension myself, I'm not sure how I even survived that night. I was drinking badly too back then, and had been for over a year. It started off over a year earlier with a couple shots a night and ending up the last two months at about a half to a full bottle (depending on the size of the bottle, 750 ml to 1.5 or 1.75 lts) of Goldschlager's or Black Label ***, or on occasion The MaCallan's. I was miserable. I felt lonely, without actually being alone. Here I was the CEO of a nationwide corporation and I felt like I had no meaning in life, no purpose to it. I was searching for something to make me happy, but could not find it. I had turned to everything immoral for pleasure, but nothing was making me feel happiness, or peace, or joy. My ex g/f was a perfect 9.5 (on Hot or Not) in most eyes; absolutely gorgeous. Turned every head where ever we went. Some would call her a nyphomaniac too, and not even that, or the parties, or the drugs or the money was making me a peace in my heart and soul. I finally had gotten stomped into the ground as I see it, by God, who basically said to me, in His way, <font color="red">"I've had enough with you Scott Wade. I've had enough, and either you change your life around now, or I'm going to just take you out." </font> My ex had left me 2 weeks earlier for a man she had met on a swingers web site. I was having DT's and panic attacks on a Saturday night, because I had forgotten that I had drank all the liquor in the house the night before and the stores were all closed. I freaked out, alone, all alone. I had a loaded Sig P229 that was even calling out to me in the bedroom. But I remembered, for some strange reason, what my Mom had told me some months earlier; "Read Psalms". I felt like I had nothing else to loose at that point. I found my Bible in the closet, found Psalms and began to read. Within 2 chapters, I was sobbing. About an hour and a half later, after several chapters and pages, I was on the floor, sitting in the dark, leaning against my sofa, crying and not able to stop. I knew what I was missing in life; Christ. I knew what I was doing wrong in my life. Everything that I thought would make me happy, was actually destroying me, physically, but also emotionally and spiritually and mentally. Drugs, sex, partying, women, money . . . non of it would make my heart know what real, true happiness is, but I had at least found what would make me happy, and after claiming to have been a Christian for 21 years already, after having gone through a Christian based school most of my childhood, after having been raised in a Christian church all of my childhood, I should have already known what the answer was, but I was deceived into thinking the same things that most people think. I was wrong, I was way way wrong. As I sat there crying, I started to scream out at God, I mean SCREAM out. I was crying totally out of control, having lost all sense of emotional stability and balance. I remember screaming things like, "What is wrong with my life? Why is everything falling apart around me? I know that I am doing wrong things. I know it God. If I turn my life around for You, will You help me get through this?" That last question, I just felt the answer to right away. I knew the answer as if someone were there telling it to me personally. I remember saying something like, "I will give You my life Lord. I have had enough. I will give You my life. Please be with me, please help me through this." You know, <font color="red">Romans 10:9 and 10 says, "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"</font>. That was pretty much what I had done. I felt the most incredible feeling I have ever felt in my life. I cannot begin to describe it. I felt the most powerful, complete feeling of peace, and knew that "everything was going to be alright". For the first time in years, I felt happy, but this time, it was a happiness greater than any I had ever known. It was beyond my own understanding. It was as if <font color="red">Romans 5:1</font> were being slammed into my heart and soul kind of like at the end of Indy Jones Holy Grail movie when they open the grail and the spirits come flying out and passing through the soldiers. <font color="red">Romans 5:1 says, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." </font>I had that peace. I found it. It was finally with me and I knew it like nothing I had ever known before. The only way we can come to God, is through His Son, and the blood His Son shed on the cross for all of us. I went through His Son, I knew in my heart that Jesus had been sent here to die for me, and for you, and for everyone who would believe in Him. I had found God, and I had found peace with Him and through His Son I had found eternal life. I knew that I had found everlasting, eternal life, knowing especially myself that life does exist after death, because Jesus spoke Himself, as written in <font color="red">John 6:47, which says, "Most assuredly, I say unto you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life." </font>I know that I had found God, and know God as being a child of His, because <font color="red">I John 5:11 &amp; 12 says, "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and that life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." And then, I John 5:13 says, "These things I have written unto you that believe in the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." </font>It was the most beautiful experience I had ever felt before. I know that not everyone has the same kind of "salvation" experience. Some are powerful, some are not so much. But when its real, there is peace. There is warmth, their is overwhelming joy and a feeling of love like no other. I believe that my experience was so powerful and beautiful beyond imagine to me because I had been absolutely crushed, and was at the emotional bottom where there was no were else to go . . . . but to God, and He was there, waiting for me.

I know that there is a purpose in my life now, and every day I want to make a difference in someone else's life through my life. I don't always do, but I want to. I'm not perfect, and can still make an ass (donkey) out of myself too. Sometimes I still get down, sometimes I still have something hurt me or I find a depressing day, and nothing is more wonderful than a friend who calls you up, checks on you, tells you they love you, gives you encouragement, says a Bible verse or two to lift your spirits up and then prays for you right there on the phone.

Since then in April 2004, I have come to question, "Was this my personal salvation and not back when I was 13 like I had though before?" I don't know. I don't think it was back at 13. I believe that this was really it. I felt my life change in 100 different, wonderful ways. I felt different about things and saw things differently. I felt alive inside. I knew that I had a purpose that was eventually going to change maybe just a few people lives.

That life changing experience all happen in April of 2004. I, being no different than any other Christian, have days where I slide back and do things wrong, sometimes very wrong and I just kick myself for it and say, "Dude, How could you have done that?". Other days, I am strong in Christ. What I have learned through this is that reading my Bible somehow keeps my strength and Christian righteousness stronger than when I go for a spell without reading my Bible. I even stop praying as much, or even at all, when I stop reading my Bible. It really is a source of strength. I know that there are Christians out there though, who as you said, "are hypocrites". I know that. But calling a Christian a hypocrite is easy to do when you are under the assumption that all Christians do is claim to be perfect and sinless. We don't claim that, not at all. There are hypocrites in Christianity, but instead of thinking as a whole of us as hypocrites, think of us as just being human, and being human makes us all sinners and wrong on a daily basis. There is no way, NO WAY that any Christian can make it one day without committing a sin, without doing something wrong that we shouldn't do. It's just not possible to have 1 day that's perfect without sin. Does that makes us hypocrites? No, it makes us just as human as anyone else. There have been some who have professed to be Christians and used their presence to gain things, including wealth, by using the name of Christ. A few televangelists of course did this. They were wrong. They were using and conning real people who trusted them, including mostly, Christians. Sadly, where ever there is money to be made, there will be a con-artist. But just don't think that Christians are all hypocrites, we are just human and imperfect and do wrong things and made mistakes and have sin in our lives when we know better and should act better. Personally, I don't know of one "Born Again's" who is such an extreme liar or thief. I honestly don't. I know of one (my father) who claimed to be a Christian and is an extreme liar among other terrible things, but I doubt his claim of being a Christian. I don't even know what his stance on that is anymore. We all lie, Christian or not. Stealing, I guess that's possible too, but I have a hard time believing that anyone who would steal could be sure of their salvation as well. They might claim it, but it doesn't make it so.

My church is one of the largest churches in the country, in fact in 3 weeks we are having our annual Pastor's Conference with 6,000 pastors from all over the world coming to hear the very best of the best pastors there are preach. Our church has 28,000 members and the church can seat, legally, 10,000 people. But my church had a Deacon of all people, caught and convicted a few years ago of child molestation. Now, I guess I see that as being a hypocrite, a pretty big one at that. In fact, my own preacher even calls us hypocrites every now and then in sermons when he gets all fired up about something, so I shouldn't be fighting it so much I guess. Just because we go to church or sing in the choir or become a missionary or a deacon does not make us perfect or all righteous in the eyes of God. There are some professing as Christians out there who are doing very bad things, but not all of us are like the very, very few. Honestly, I suppose I got my feelings hurt about the hypocrite thing. My point I am trying to make is that there are hypocrites, and then there are Christians who are just human and still commit sin ever single day like everyone else does. The Christians that I am surrounded by today, I believe 99% of them are the best people there are (compared to those I surrounded myself with before). They would do anything for pretty much anybody if they could. I would too. But we are soooo not perfect. Soooo not special or any better than anyone else is. I'm feeling a bit sad these last couple of weeks, because of some personal matters, and also because last year I had hoped to have enough finances generated through my company to purchase 80,000 to 120,000 Bibles and pass them out this week with a few thousand others in downtown Jax with the Superbowl activities going on. I couldn't pull it together financially. The adult singles groups at my church are however planning this weekend to be out passing out 10,000 tracks and trying to witness to people. But there are good people and bad people in every church. Sometimes, as with my own father I believe, people go to church as a front, and claim to be a Christian as a front before other people. Like I said, I see my father as being that way now that I know him better than I did as a child. He was in church for many years with us as a family. Things I know about him today make me doubt his salvation completely. I don't believe at all that he is a Christian, but he told people he was and tried to outwardly seem like he was. He does not any longer, which doesn't surprise me now. I think that sometimes people have things in their lives that they are tormented with, and personally ashamed of, and try to overcome some of their own guilty conscious by attending church and/or claiming to be a Christian; maybe hoping people will see them as better than what they really feel inside of themselves. It maybe makes them feel better about themselves in one sense, but deep inside, they still know the truth, and it still eats them up with a guilty conscious. So sometimes there are those who talk the talk but do not walk the walk as they should if they really are Christians. That is entirely different though from someone who is a Christian and genuinely wants to be as good a person as they can, and be as close to the Lord as they can, but still fail through being human and commit sin.

If all you have ever known is just bad people as Christians, then I'm very sorry that it has been your experience. If there is someone you know here in the Jax area who you trust, who is not a Christian, and you can get this person to come to my church with me for 1 month, I think maybe they would report back to you a story that you would see as enlightening and sweet and beautiful. I can also invite you to watch the same sermons I hear and see every week. You can go to www.fbcjax.com and on Wednesday nights, Sunday mornings and Sunday nights, the sermons are broadcasted live over the internet, and by streaming video they can be watched.

Just in our service last night, the sermon was entitled, "When Wealth Destroys", so its ironic that you say that Christians are not supposed to be interested in money or anything materialistic. This is very false. Christians SHOULD be concerned with money. But what we are taught is that we should use a portion of our wealth to the glory of God and in today's times, we can use this in ways like supporting missionaries abroad, reaching out to others through material pieces or such as First Baptist Jacksonville a television and internet ministry, or giving to relief support such as the tsunami catastrophe, or giving to the local missions or establishing a local mission. This past Christmas, our church baked 40,000 homemade cookies between the church members only, and gave them to a group of men, from our church, who then take these homemade cookies to the prison (usually maximum security Raiford) and give them to the men there along with Cokes and Sprites. Prisoners said that it was the only time of the year they can get a coke to drink. They also use the time to witness of course, and this last Christmas we had a huge multitude of prisoners accept Christ as Savior. Listening to some of the stories from our church men who go is just heart touching. The main person who leads our men in, one of our associate pastors, told the congregation that when they get there, they are all told not to stand too close to the cells, especially solitary confinement, because sometimes the prisoners will spit at them. The associate pastor told us that none of the men who were there let that stop them from getting close. They were there because they cared about these men. People baked cookies for the worst of the worst because they cared about these men. But the Bible does not say, as Dr. Vines pointed out last night, that money is evil or bad to have as a Christian. What the Bible says about money is this, from <font color="red">I Timothy</font> (written by Paul to Timothy) <font color="red">6:10, "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."</font> Basically, it says, "for the LOVE of money" will cause some people to fall away from God because of being greedy, and this will cause them much pain in the end when they realize what they have done. Money is fine, wealth is fine, riches are fine, but don't put the "love" of money and the greediness that money can cause before God. God does not have a problem with making us wealthy or seeing us find wealth, but when we put wealth before Him, for instance, if I spent all of my money on myself and did not tithe 10% as the Bible says, or if I spent my Sundays working JUST because I wanted a new Viper when all of my needs were already perfectly met, these would be wrong. If I had to work on Sundays to support my children and keep food on the table and a roof over head, that is not wrong in doing. But when you put money or materialistic things BEFORE God, then it becomes wrong and that's is were the Christian belief is. My corporate attorney is Bill Brant of Brant, Abraham, Reiter and McCormick, the principle stockholder of one of the premier corporate tax law firms in Florida. He's also a member of First Baptist. Generally he works late every night and I believe misses many Wednesday night services, but its apart of his job that he sometimes must miss a service. What he does in return for the church is immeasurable. His wife is the children's play coordinator and for years has used her incredible talents to put together the most awesome children's plays you could imagine, especially for a church. These kids she trains and coaches are all church kids, and 3 times a year there is a massive production put on by the kids, and I mean MASSIVE. She devotes hundreds of hours into these plays and the kids and the overall production. She's the wife of a top Florida attorney, she doesn't need to do anything, but she does it voluntarily. So you see, there is nothing wrong with money, there is nothing wrong with having a 10 million dollar St. John's River home, but when you start putting these things before God, then it becomes a sin in His eyes.

I am sorry that you found something I said to be insulting. I didn't mean to be at all. I sometimes try to be funny and it comes across wrong in writing I guess. Maybe had we been sitting together you would have seen my humor and kidder in me. The Bible says to turn the other cheek, but I did nothing that I know of to be of insult or condescending in nature. If I did, then I apologize for that too, but I honestly don't know of doing such thing. I stated some things in trying to debate, not be of insult. If it came across this way, again, I am sorry. I don't need to apologize to you, but I do because I want to and because I really am sorry if that's how it came across. I will never, ever say that I'm going to be perfect in every way just because I am a Christian and proud to say so to anyone, because I will never be perfect. I will say wrong things to people. I will do wrong things. I will be tempted like anyone else is and sometimes I'm going to fall into that temptation, unfortunately. Christians don't want too, but Christians still do. We're still human.

I'm not better than anyone, and never said I was. I'm definitely not superior to anyone either. I might be different than some because I am a Christian, but that in itself does not make me better, more special or close to superior in any way. I'm no different than anyone else is. Just like the Bible says, "For we are all short of the glory of God."

If it seemed like I was making fun of you or anyone, please know that I didn't mean it that way, I really didn't. I'm not trying to score brownie points with God either, it just doesn't work that way. The creator of everything there is cannot be fooled, and I'm not about to think that I can do that, especially to Him.

Best Regards,

scott

 

[Cris]

Enough is enough. Scratch the last post. If I want to hear a sermon I will go to church.

And please Xanadu, please do not assert that all christians are the same. I sure as hell am not like you and would never spout off religous effects on a car web site. To do so is not in good taste.

 

[xanadu]

I warned about the last post. You didn't need to read it.

 

[xanadu]

Enough is enough. Scratch the last post. If I want to hear a sermon I will go to church.

And please Xanadu, please do not assert that all christians are the same. I sure as hell am not like you and would never spout off religous effects on a car web site. To do so is not in good taste.

And people also don't need to be publically out to humiliate people (MROB for example) on a car web site either, regardless of what they have done. I don't know if you really are a Christian or not, I would think if you were you would have capitolized the c in Christians and would possibly have refrained from using foul language as well. The Bible says to spread the word, and so I do. I have not been out preaching to anyone, but I stood my ground in the last post as a Christian after being attacked for my Christianity. For that I have no apologies. My corporate web site is even used to spread the word much more so that a simple Bible verse and a "God Bless You" and for that I am proud again. If a Bible verse and a "God bless You" is such an offense, maybe there are deeper reasons for you to feel so offended.

 

[Cris]

Guess the use or non-use of a capital letter defines me. Now who is trying to humiliate?

I disagree with the "spread the word" campaign. Whether it be here or at my front door. Everyone the world over has the right to practice their own religion, or to practice nothing at all. Period. Without someone's condescending remarks. And yes, your preaching that anyone that does not have the same beliefs and voice as you publicly is not worthy of "everlasting life," reeks of bias and prejudice.

I happen to be Christian (note the capital) but I do not believe I have the right to tell you or anyone else what they should believe in. Period. Be it muslim, jew, hindu, etc.

So either stop your condescending approach of spreading religion and keep this site car, preferably Viper, related. Other wise go join another more appropriate site.

 

[xanadu]

<font color="green"> NOT VIPER RELATED. IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO READ SOMETHING NOT VIPER RELATED, THEN PLEASE BE ADVISED TO MOVE ON TO THE NEXT POST.</font>

Guess the use or non-use of a capital letter defines me. Now who is trying to humiliate?

I disagree with the "spread the word" campaign. Whether it be here or at my front door. Everyone the world over has the right to practice their own religion, or to practice nothing at all. Period. Without someone's condescending remarks. And yes, your preaching that anyone that does not have the same beliefs and voice as you publicly is not worthy of "everlasting life," reeks of bias and prejudice.

I happen to be Christian (note the capital) but I do not believe I have the right to tell you or anyone else what they should believe in. Period. Be it muslim, jew, hindu, etc.

So either stop your condescending approach of spreading religion and keep this site car, preferably Viper, related. Other wise go join another more appropriate site.

Just because I called you on the caps thing does not mean I am trying to humilate you. You are stretching for something to use to attack me with. I simply could not imagine someone who is a Christian not capitolizing the c in Christian, that's all. That is simply because of the respect that Christians give to Christ our Savior.

I'm sorry that you disagree with the "spread the word program". If you would like, I'll spend a while to find you some verses from the Bible which specifically state "share the word in all corners of the world". There are several of them. Very, very few people ever find Christ by just picking up the Bible. They are led to Christ by someone else. My pastor recently said, "Imagine what the person who led Billy Graham to the Lord must think about doing that?" There are verses which not only say that the word is to be spread by the teachers of the many (pastors etc.), but also by the people themselves. So I do. The attack against me was from something as small as a single Bible verse and a well wishing. I also never said that people cannot practice whatever they choose to do, or not do. What I said was about MY experience, MY testimony and MY belief. I shared that and never once said that people had to believe in what I said or practice in what I believe. It was never implied at all. And there was certainly nothing at all that was condescending, either. There is no bias or prejudice in anything I have said. If you consider that bias or prejudice then you are stating that the Bible is such, not me. I am going by what the Bible says, and it is up to any man to choose what he believes in, or does not believe in. What I said, in a sense, was that no man is worthy of everlasting life, EXCEPT through the blood of Jesus Christ, according the the Bible, and my belief in the Bible. I have not taken the right upon myself to tell anyone how they should live or what they should believe in, as you claim. I have only given my own personal belief, my testimony about where I had come from, and what my life had been changed into, and what any man chooses to believe is up to them, but I have only shared my passion for Christ and what the Bible tells. Whether you personally choose to accept my belief is up to you, as is for any person as well, but I am not forcing it to be accepted by anyone; I am merely sharing what the Bible tells me, and just maybe could tell you too.

Do you as a Christian not believe in the Bible?

I have no condescending approach to spreading religion. I have a message to share with anyone willing to listen. I get persecuted for this, but I still stand my ground, and still believe, and still know what it's about. People can choose anything they wish, or nothing at all, but sharing my beliefs does not make me condescending towards anyone, Muslim, Jew or anything. I have spoken to Muslims and **** and Hundus through work before, and none found my views offensive, and I did not find there views offensive either. They can share their belief, I will share mine. I took an attack on my Christianity to use as an opportunity to share my testimony. Not to proclaim that all should follow me. Follow where your heart tells you too, or don't even follow anything at all if you choose. But I will share, and to those who listen, and to those who want to know, I will tell as much I can, so that they too will come to know Christ.

God Bless.

 

[Cris]

I hear there are more deserving souls on the Gen I/II forum and at viper_alley.com (remove the underline and watch out!) Ta ta

 

[Warfang]

I hear there are more deserving souls on the Gen I/II forum and at viper_alley.com (remove the underline and watch out!) Ta ta

makes me want to remove the underline