sween
Enthusiast
yup 
Side by side SRT coupe & ZO6... (pic)
- Thread starter DSR207
- Start date
viper GTS-R
Enthusiast
Bah comparing the "modded" vette to a stock viper, here's a real comparison!
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Mopar426
Enthusiast
How can you call a Z06 a "Modded" Vette when it can from the facotry that way. So you would call the Coupe a "Modded" SRT since it has a roof??
Interesting...
viper GTS-R
Enthusiast
I call it "modded" for a reason. The street vipers were RT/10, GTS, ACR in that order. ACR being the special package, that's how I view the Z06.
Convertable/coupe/SP:
RT/10,GTS,ACR
C6 vert,C6 coupe,Z06
Therefore the Z06 should be compared to the ACR, if it comes out.
sween
Enthusiast
no. the viper competes with the Z06. if you were right the viper would compete with the regular covette which is false. they both have there pros and cons but in the magizanes its going to say the vettes better but it wont be. it would be more like a tie. the magizanes always say the vettes better or a tie. they like it better, they always loved the vette for decades. they dont like the viper because the viper stole its thunder. example they said the old ZO6 ties with the srt-10 convertable which is simply not true. so were ever they said the Z06 is going to kick the vipers ass is just not true. i think its more like a tie because the vette has the 0-60 and the 1/4 mile but the viper has the skipad and the brakes. so never say the Z06 is going to kill the viper because its not. im tired of all this bullsh!t going on.
DSR207
Enthusiast
What's a VETTE to VIPER transformation feels like ? See for your self
Mopar426
Enthusiast
i think its more like a tie because the vette has the 0-60 and the 1/4 mile but the viper has the skipad and the brakes. so never say the Z06 is going to kill the viper because its not. im tired of all this bullsh!t going on.
What are you basing your facts on? Not calling you a liar by any means just stating there are no published times for either car at this point. To say one is better than the other as far as performance is merely personal opinion.
I guess I'm not one to bench race.
sween
Enthusiast
im basing it on estimatsions. who knows i can be wrong. we will find out in september when they come out
Bwright
Enthusiast
Actually, the opposite is true. Motor Trend SAID it was the Z06 and Road and Track and Autoweek THOUGHT it was the Blue Devil based entirely on what some eyewitnesses were said to have heard. Since you are a Viper owner I am surprised that you would buy into what someone heard as when the Viper was introduced, and for reasons now well understood, it sounded to the uninformed ear as if it only had 5 cylinders. On the C6 Z06, to pass increasingly stringent drive-by noise regulations, GM introduced a bi-modal muffler featuring a vacuum-actuated outlet valve which controls exhaust noise during low load operation but opens fully at 3,500 rpm for maximum power. The operation of this bi-modal muffler system causes the car’s exhaust note to change significantly when under power such that it can easily be mistaken for something else.
But let’s put aside these facts for one second. I’m curious about something; in the Corvette Magazine quote you referenced earlier on this thread it was noted that GM continued to deny the very existence of the "Blue Devil." Despite this you believe they would quote you its exact Nurburgring lap times to two decimal places? Well yes, of course. And for the next trick the Air Force will quote you the exact Mach speed of the purported Aurora spy plane that they continue to deny exists as a replacement for the SR-71.
Really?
OK, well, be a sport and let Walter Rorhl and Porsche know just how naïve they are as their stock 456hp 996 GT2 lapped the ring in 7:46, four seconds off the time of the lighter and more powerful 505hp Z06. Be sure to provide Porsche with technical details of just how you have calculated that a stock 505hp car cannot do what they came very close to doing with 49 fewer horses in a heavier car with narrower tires and worse aero. If you would be so kind as to share the wisdom of your technical analysis with the rest of us we would appreciate it. In light of the known facts of the 996 GT2, I for one would be quite interested in seeing exactly how you arrived at your conclusion. The only naiveté here is those who think sheer horsepower is the solution to great track times. BTW, don't go to Janmagnussen.com. Trust me.
Lee00blacksilverGTS
Enthusiast
Actually, the opposite is true. Motor Trend SAID it was the Z06 and Road and Track and Autoweek THOUGHT it was the Blue Devil based entirely on what some eyewitnesses were said to have heard. Since you are a Viper owner I am surprised that you would buy into what someone heard as when the Viper was introduced, and for reasons now well understood, it sounded to the uninformed ear as if it only had 5 cylinders. On the C6 Z06, to pass increasingly stringent drive-by noise regulations, GM introduced a bi-modal muffler featuring a vacuum-actuated outlet valve which controls exhaust noise during low load operation but opens fully at 3,500 rpm for maximum power. The operation of this bi-modal muffler system causes the car’s exhaust note to change significantly when under power such that it can easily be mistaken for something else.
But let’s put aside these facts for one second. I’m curious about something; in the Corvette Magazine quote you referenced earlier on this thread it was noted that GM continued to deny the very existence of the "Blue Devil." Despite this you believe they would quote you its exact Nurburgring lap times to two decimal places? Well yes, of course. And for the next trick the Air Force will quote you the exact Mach speed of the purported Aurora spy plane that they continue to deny exists as a replacement for the SR-71.
Really?
The only naiveté here is those who think sheer horsepower is the solution to great track times. BTW, don't go to Janmagnussen.com. Trust me.
Quote
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your first point....Motor Trend ASSUMED it was the Z06. Corvette magazine, Road and Track and Autoweek (3 to 1 by the way) ANALYZED it as the Blue Devil.
Your second point......What was your second point? That you know a lot about the muffler system? Anything you know the magazines know also, and they analyzed what it was based on their knowledge, which body of knowledge is probably somewhat larger than yours.
Your third point.... Regarding their admission of the existance of the Blue Devil. They now admit it exists, and I don't read the Vette quote that way. And how else could they be denying it wasn't the blue devil?
Your fourth point....Regarding the GT2. That cars time was EXACTLY the reaon I made the comment about the lap time. I will now ammend the comment for clarity.
"Anyone who believes a stock, FRONT ENGINE, MASS PRODUCED CAR, SELLING FOR UNDER 75K CAN LAP WITHIN 4 SECONDS OF A FULLY PREPARED MID ENGINE RACE CAR COSTING 500K IS NAIVE"
Your last point.... I went to the web site, I can read it, can you?
From your knowledge of the car it is clear you researched it and probably have one on order. You would love to believe it could be that fast. The actual PRODUCTION car has never turned a wheel in a test. The nonsense about the Ring is just that...PR nonsense, two weeks testing tires, you believe it ran with the stock tires? Why test? The race team and the driver from the winning Le Mans effort two weeks before. And 3 out of 4 magazines say it was the Blue Devil... with the bible....Corvette magazine saying it just could not be a stock Z06 based on the lap times. Keep believing what you want but you've got what I call Bow Tie myopia.
Hirohawa
Enthusiast
http://www.janmagnussen.com/news.asp?NewsID=1124386515
Guess the LeMans winning driver is wrong also. GM probably didn't want him to know he was actually testing the Blue Devil. It all makes sense now.
A two month old Autoweek is correct but the guy who drove the thing is wrong. Makes perfect sense.
Guess the LeMans winning driver is wrong also. GM probably didn't want him to know he was actually testing the Blue Devil. It all makes sense now.
A two month old Autoweek is correct but the guy who drove the thing is wrong. Makes perfect sense.
sween
Enthusiast
yup
DSR207
Enthusiast
Hirohawa, the rumor, if that's what it is, didn't start here, just do a search, you will find the subject "blue devil in the ring" all over the net. I guess it's a conspiracy against GM...BTW, what did you want the driver to say he was driving ? A FORD GT ? No one said it wasn't a Z06, they simply said it sounded supercharged, and the numbers backed that claim. And then, just by coincidence, GM started talking about plans for a supercharged Z06, that just happens to be again, just by pure coincidence, blue, dubbed blue devil. Like you said, it all makes perfect sense now I guess we will all know the truth soon
I guess we will all know the truth soon Viperfreak2
Enthusiast
GM paid Magnussen.
GimmeTheSpeed
Enthusiast
I could care less what GM does to their Vettes... I'd never leave a Viper for a Vette.
you have your Vette guys and you have your Viper guys... then somewhere in the middle you have the Sheep.... the Sheep will flock to wherever the buzz is... and it happens to be the Vettes time to shine with their new toy... may they enjoy it while it lasts.... hopefully in the near future we'll see the Coupe that we've all been waiting for come to life... then magically the sheep will return... meanwhile, I'll be driving my Viper causing traffic to slow.. peoples jaws to drop... and everybody with a camera phone snapping pictures like they've seen a UFO... a trip to the gas station in the Viper is a vacation
you have your Vette guys and you have your Viper guys... then somewhere in the middle you have the Sheep.... the Sheep will flock to wherever the buzz is... and it happens to be the Vettes time to shine with their new toy... may they enjoy it while it lasts.... hopefully in the near future we'll see the Coupe that we've all been waiting for come to life... then magically the sheep will return... meanwhile, I'll be driving my Viper causing traffic to slow.. peoples jaws to drop... and everybody with a camera phone snapping pictures like they've seen a UFO... a trip to the gas station in the Viper is a vacation
Bwright
Enthusiast
Ah yes, Road and Track’s analysis: "How do we know? Anyone who HEARD it said the sound could only come from a supercharger." Motor Trend’s assumption? An interview with driver Jan Magnussen and GM’s staff. Motor Trend went so far as to put "Z06 hot laps the Ring" on the top edge of their cover. They also commented that they had actually driven the car and that their "First Drive" story would appear next month. Perhaps you should look up the definition of assumed.
Actually you would, again, be surprised at how incorrect your assumption is. I am the chief auto analyst for a $7BN hedge fund. As such you would be surprised at just how much more than those guys I know based on who I routinely speak directly with and who I can call immediately to confirm things they report based on hearsay and supposition. Case in point, I took the liberty of spending ten minutes checking the direct sources of your belief to sound out the apparent confusion on the car. The vehicle tested was a pre-production 505hp Z06 in final spec trim on treaded tires. The only difference of passing note was racing seats to better hold Jan in place. The car was tested by other drivers in advance of Jan's arrival to ensure that the suspension settings would be perfect for his run. The settings were then to be applied to the production cars.
Well, let’s see, your quote from Corvette Magazine on page two of this thread: "A spy shooter has put Chevy's continuing denials of a super vette in doubt." By the way, show me where GM has explicitly said anywhere that the Blue Devil actually exists. Not that they are planning something mind you, but they have built it and are testing it. Make sure that your demonstrated quote is not from a third party source who is speculating based on what they think.
Mid-engined?! $500K . LOL. NOW I GET IT. You have your cars completely confused. The…GT 2 …is…not…a….fully…prepared…race…car. The now discontinued rear-engined GT 2 was a U.S. legal 996 Turbo X50 without the AWD system and a smidge of extra boost.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=100&page_number=1
Reading is fundamental. So is knowing the facts of the cars one speaks of. Let me guess, you were thinking of the Carrera GT? That car is mid-engined and costs $440,000. It also holds the Nurburgring lap record for a U.S. legal production car at 7:32 (Horst Von Saurma at the controls) a definitive 10 seconds away from the Z06. Again, facts - the $179,900 GT2 with only 456hp, more weight, worse aero, less grip and a higher center of gravity set a 7:46. With that set of facts do you still think a four second improvement over the GT2 is so difficult? Perhaps the third time you amend your comment will be the charm.
Translation:
http://www.z06vette.com/forums/showthread.php?p=939436#post939436
From your knowledge of the car it is clear you researched it and probably have one on order. You would love to believe it could be that fast. The actual PRODUCTION car has never turned a wheel in a test. The nonsense about the Ring is just that...PR nonsense, two weeks testing tires, you believe it ran with the stock tires? Why test? The race team and the driver from the winning Le Mans effort two weeks before. And 3 out of 4 magazines say it was the Blue Devil... with the bible....Corvette magazine saying it just could not be a stock Z06 based on the lap times. Keep believing what you want but you've got what I call Bow Tie myopia.
LOL. I am going to remember you said that. Again, I made the phone calls and I know for a fact that two of the key publications you referenced with such confidence told me less than 12 hours ago that they have now discovered that they were completely wrong. For obvious reasons I cannot quote names but you will see in less than one week.
Hirohawa
Enthusiast
It's funny how badly people here are in denial. Head in the sand is being polite.
The fact is that this is the Z06 official time at the ring, besting amongst others a $320K Lambo Murcielago and a $450K SLR Merc. I think the target for the Z06 was set beyond just the Viper, and 1/4 mile times - and I think it has been achieved. To me the fact that the Z is faster than a $180,000 Porsche GT2 around a track is more significant than any 0-60 or ET on the 1320.
What is the real shame is that the SRT Convertible and the new Coupe have no ring times to even compare with. DC needs to get the Viper program back into Lemans racing against the C6Rs and recommit to holding the performance title over the Ford GT and the Z06.
Ford and GM have both stepped up over the last two years. DC must step up, or I fear the Viper will go the way of the Barracuda.
The fact is that this is the Z06 official time at the ring, besting amongst others a $320K Lambo Murcielago and a $450K SLR Merc. I think the target for the Z06 was set beyond just the Viper, and 1/4 mile times - and I think it has been achieved. To me the fact that the Z is faster than a $180,000 Porsche GT2 around a track is more significant than any 0-60 or ET on the 1320.
What is the real shame is that the SRT Convertible and the new Coupe have no ring times to even compare with. DC needs to get the Viper program back into Lemans racing against the C6Rs and recommit to holding the performance title over the Ford GT and the Z06.
Ford and GM have both stepped up over the last two years. DC must step up, or I fear the Viper will go the way of the Barracuda.
Hirohawa
Enthusiast
Deleted. Misread something about the GT2.
sween
Enthusiast
if the dodge viper had ring times it would probly be close (if not faster) to the Z06 (if it isnt the Bluedevil). also chevy did alot of tuning to the z06 to get that time such as suspension.go ahead tell me how much im in denial
Hirohawa
Enthusiast
You're in denial.
Wifey's Viper
Enthusiast
A stock C6 recently scored better on a road course(http://www.roadandtrack.com/article...article_id=1949) than the Viper. The idea that the Viper would outperform a Z06 at the Ring is unlikely. The Viper gets more attention though.
But yes Sween, you are in denial.
But yes Sween, you are in denial.
Mopar426
Enthusiast
if the dodge viper had ring times it would probly be close (if not faster) to the Z06 (if it isnt the Bluedevil). also chevy did alot of tuning to the z06 to get that time such as suspension.go ahead tell me how much im in denial
Nothing wrong with thinking you own the best/fastest car ever to be built and can never be beaten is fine/narrowminded but fine. But denyng the mere fact that someone has finally cought and most likely pass the Viper in the performance sector is crazy. But there is also something called wishfull thinking and denial.
This "But IF" stuff is proof of that. IF my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle"
Until DC runs the SRT/coupe at the Ring it's heresay plain and simple. Until both cars are put on the same track head to head either car's performance numbers is just an estimate at best. Wait until the stats come out THEN there will be nothing left but the crying WHOEVER is slower.
sween
Enthusiast
yes i do have that article and yes the viper does lose to the C6. also look at the article again. they get alot of the perfomance numbers on the viper wrong. its only a little bit difference but its a difference. there quarter mile 12.1 vipers real quarter mile 11.8, there braking 0-60 112 the real braking 97ft (btw they say the vettes brakes are better which is wrong because the viper has the best current production brakes), there 0-60 4 the real 0-60 high 3s (ok that one isnt a big difference but you get the picture). if they got all of the performance right then the viper would of got a higher position.i know the vipers a harder car to drive while the vette is easier. another reason why the vette won. magizanes are always in favor of the vette they always have been and they always will.also when the z06, and the srt-10 coupe come out i bet almost every magizane is going to say the vets better because they all love the vette and its an easier car to drive and its cheaper. but i dont give a **** cause (if you havent noticed) i like the viper better and i always will and thats why i joined this forum.
VENOMAHOLIC
Enthusiast
I feel history will prove that the Viper will be the more desireable car over the Vette just because the V10 takes very well to mods. Notice that the C4 and C5 are at basement prices already. That being said, it doesn't help sales now of the Viper.
GM views the Corvette as its flagship model of American muscle and has a successful plan to keep it going till the end of GM. The Corvette even survived the 70's gas crisis. Dodge created the Viper as an image car that turned into a flagship model that loaned styling trends to the whole line. The over the top V10 and unique styling was unparalleled for a long time and was seen by the gen public as outrageous and exciting. DC buys Dodge and instantly the Viper is no longer the flagship but a Mercedes is.
The SRT 10 comes out with it's new styling that is a little far from the original concept that was the proven recipe for excitement in appearence. The engine and performance upgrades couldn't offset the new look which has always been controversial even on this forum. This effect is being compounded by the obvious similarity to the C6 corvette. The new Z06 with 500hp and a much lighter chassis now is digging at the Viper performance.
I bought a Viper myself because I like the feel of having the fastest and most outrageous vehicle for under $100k and everybody who sees it on the street knows it.
In my mind the Gen IV Viper is the key to long term survival. DC needs to regain the over the top combo of performance and styling. Horsepower alone will not do it but it has to be over the top by todays standards. (650 or more) Since retro is in maybe they can reclaim the look of the 89' concept car more. If DC dosen't get it right then the Viper will be discontinued since it is no longer a flagship or even an image car in their mind. If this happens, collector value on any V10 would go through the roof just because it will always be better than any production V8.
GM views the Corvette as its flagship model of American muscle and has a successful plan to keep it going till the end of GM. The Corvette even survived the 70's gas crisis. Dodge created the Viper as an image car that turned into a flagship model that loaned styling trends to the whole line. The over the top V10 and unique styling was unparalleled for a long time and was seen by the gen public as outrageous and exciting. DC buys Dodge and instantly the Viper is no longer the flagship but a Mercedes is.
The SRT 10 comes out with it's new styling that is a little far from the original concept that was the proven recipe for excitement in appearence. The engine and performance upgrades couldn't offset the new look which has always been controversial even on this forum. This effect is being compounded by the obvious similarity to the C6 corvette. The new Z06 with 500hp and a much lighter chassis now is digging at the Viper performance.
I bought a Viper myself because I like the feel of having the fastest and most outrageous vehicle for under $100k and everybody who sees it on the street knows it.
In my mind the Gen IV Viper is the key to long term survival. DC needs to regain the over the top combo of performance and styling. Horsepower alone will not do it but it has to be over the top by todays standards. (650 or more) Since retro is in maybe they can reclaim the look of the 89' concept car more. If DC dosen't get it right then the Viper will be discontinued since it is no longer a flagship or even an image car in their mind. If this happens, collector value on any V10 would go through the roof just because it will always be better than any production V8.
Mopar426
Enthusiast
Persoanlly the V10 is nothing short of impressive, no debating that at all. But to say "it will ALWAYS be better than any V8" is crazy. If the Viper and the V10 go out of production other makes will still thrive such as the Vette, Mustang, etc. Cars and engines evolve, technology advances making beter, more powerful, more efficient engines. True more displacement is key to making power but keep in mind the V10 is basicly a 360ci + 2 cylinders, in other words the pistons are somewhat small compared to the "Big Block V8's" of the 60's. While a 426 Hemi or a 427 Big Block Chevy has 2 less cylinders it has bigger pistons, bigger valve heads that flow better. My point being just because a engine has more cylinders doesn't mean it can't be eclipsed in power.
If the Viper line fails (which I pray it doesn't) values will steadily increase.
Fast Freddy
Enthusiast
the 488 cubic inch V-10 engine that resides in all gen 1 and gen 2 vipers is a 390 cubic inch V-8 with 2 more cylinders added 
VENOMAHOLIC
Enthusiast
I understand and respect that V8 engines are putting out substantial hp/cubic inch nowadays and will improve in the future. GM also makes monster crate engines but engines that size will probably never be put in a production car, maybe trucks.
Given the same mods as a V8 at least up to 454ci, the V10 will show more improvement mod for mod all else being equal. Now and in the future engines like the Hemi have so many computer controls and even variable displacement that disables cylinders. They are too complex for the average hotrodder and even tuner companies. I have been amazed by the hp numbers coming from twin turbos Viper owners. (well over 1000) Just look at DSR207's post and see 678 hp and 659TQ at the wheels with a supercharger.
Try to get numbers like that from any production V8 and expect catastrophic failure if not immediatley, then soon after use and nothing in the forseeable future could. The 06 Z06 engine does get 500hp but GM needed to upgrade to titanium piston rods. The engine is maxed out almost at production and a Twin turbo will not get hp like a V10. Imagine what a V10 could pull with titanium in the engine.
Given the same mods as a V8 at least up to 454ci, the V10 will show more improvement mod for mod all else being equal. Now and in the future engines like the Hemi have so many computer controls and even variable displacement that disables cylinders. They are too complex for the average hotrodder and even tuner companies. I have been amazed by the hp numbers coming from twin turbos Viper owners. (well over 1000) Just look at DSR207's post and see 678 hp and 659TQ at the wheels with a supercharger.
Try to get numbers like that from any production V8 and expect catastrophic failure if not immediatley, then soon after use and nothing in the forseeable future could. The 06 Z06 engine does get 500hp but GM needed to upgrade to titanium piston rods. The engine is maxed out almost at production and a Twin turbo will not get hp like a V10. Imagine what a V10 could pull with titanium in the engine.
Mopar426
Enthusiast
On the contrary Lingenfelter has been Twin Turboing LS1's for several years now and to date has them running in the low 8's. This is on the C5R(LS7/C6 Z06 long block). To say a V8 can't make/handle the power is a falicy. But as a large cubic inch owner majority of the time cubic inches = Power.
http://www.lingenfelter.com/press.htm#
DSR207
Enthusiast
This is interesting, from another forum:
"Again, I'm not questioning the awesomeness of the C6 let alone the Z06 as there's easily no car anywhere near its pricerange that can touch it in factory performance or potential.
All I'm saying is that I'm a bit at odds with a Z06 beating a car like the McLaren F1. The McLaren has 141 More HP, same torque and weighs anywhere between 400 and 700Lbs less than the Z06. The F1, with a de-rated engine and relatively unmolested chassis (unlike the C6 vs. the C6R) won LeMans in 1997.
I'm not saying it's impossible for a heavier, less powerful front engined car to beat the extremely focused F1, just that it seems odd and I'm surprised more people here are just accepting it as the truth. "
source
"Again, I'm not questioning the awesomeness of the C6 let alone the Z06 as there's easily no car anywhere near its pricerange that can touch it in factory performance or potential.
All I'm saying is that I'm a bit at odds with a Z06 beating a car like the McLaren F1. The McLaren has 141 More HP, same torque and weighs anywhere between 400 and 700Lbs less than the Z06. The F1, with a de-rated engine and relatively unmolested chassis (unlike the C6 vs. the C6R) won LeMans in 1997.
I'm not saying it's impossible for a heavier, less powerful front engined car to beat the extremely focused F1, just that it seems odd and I'm surprised more people here are just accepting it as the truth. "
source
Mopar426
Enthusiast
McLaren F1 and Corvette should not be mentioned in the same sentence! LOL
Gearing and "area under the curve" comes into play. Look at how many 900hp Supras run 11's at the track or how many MUCH more powerful Viper lost to the LPE Vette at the shootouts.
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