DodgeViper01
Enthusiast
That was the first thing I was thinking. No one gives items away just because they like you!!
SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES
- Thread starter bigmike32172
- Start date
That was the first thing I was thinking. No one gives items away just because they like you!!
DodgeViper01
Enthusiast
This car was for sale before the announcement and no one jumped on it?????? I find that a little hard to believe. Was it one of those secret; only a few people know is for sale type of offerings?
Y2K5SRT
Enthusiast
Bob - Apology accepted and let's move on.
Flash - Expect an e-mail from VCA HQ and/or your regional presidents. We will let you know the day the license is issued and tickets available. We will also post that information here along with a link to the entry form. We don't expect tickets to be available for long!
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Flash - Expect an e-mail from VCA HQ and/or your regional presidents. We will let you know the day the license is issued and tickets available. We will also post that information here along with a link to the entry form. We don't expect tickets to be available for long!
Andrew/USPWR
Enthusiast
I'll buy a ticket but, I was hoping for an 08 Gen III ACR announcement.
Y2K5SRT
Enthusiast
Geez, I completely missed this one. Tiger, welcome to Dead Horse. Please grab a stick of your choice and start beating.
BELIEVE IT. Again (and again and again) - I can't tell you WHERE they advertised it, but I will find out as it seems to be such an incredibly important (and moot) issue. I do know they were originally asking $175K on it and didn't get even a nibble. And I know they advertised it elsewhere. I will find out where so you can set your mind at ease and then start hitting yourself in the forehead for having missed that particular opportunity. I know I am.
Y2K5SRT
Enthusiast
Hey, aren't you getting a little ahead of yourself?
One raffle at a time my friend. Why do you think we waited until the 15th to do the official announcement? Raffle truck was drawn on the 14th...
JohnnyBravo
Enthusiast
The car is clearly hideous and over valued. Nobody should be caught dead driving this car, nor should they be duped into the horrendous potential tax liability.
I suggest NOBODY buy any raffle tickets.
Except me.
Honestly, if I wanted someone to crap on every cool thing that I liked in this world, I would have gotten married. I, for one, am willing to roll the dice on the tax liability for a chance to have a one-off work of automotive art like this. And for those of you who don't like it, I won't let you ride in it.
I suggest NOBODY buy any raffle tickets.
Except me.
Honestly, if I wanted someone to crap on every cool thing that I liked in this world, I would have gotten married. I, for one, am willing to roll the dice on the tax liability for a chance to have a one-off work of automotive art like this. And for those of you who don't like it, I won't let you ride in it.
big-n-italian
Enthusiast
you do realize that you have to be a VCA member to buy a ticket, right?
i am not trying to be a smartass, but i noticed that it says "enthusiast" under your username, and there is no mention anywhere that you own a viper. if you arent a VCA member, you better become one quickly!!
I think you'd crap yourself big time if the VCA states $120k and
the IRS decided to charge you for $750,000 - that would mean you
owe $262,000 in taxes. Do you really think this would bring
$300,000 at BJ (read: $262,000 in FED taxes and $38,000 in BJ
seller fees?)
But I learned a thing or two about how the IRS feels about raffle
vehicles.
Reality is though that the IRS will only charge you about $50,000
AT MOST for the taxes on this vehicle as part of the win.
They're not going to be concerned with R&D fees associated as the
company probably already has accepted that as part of their earned
income. But that's only if you decide to keep it.
What the IRS will be concerned with is if you win the car and then
flip it for a profit. Expect to pay 38% of whatever the profit
difference is. Don't be eyeing this car as an immediate cash cow -
any money you make from it will be taxed to the fullest extent of the
law.
SylvanSRT
Enthusiast
here are some pics from Woodward Dream Cruise '06
btw dont worry about rain when your out for a drive just put a piece of plastic over the intake trumpets.
btw dont worry about rain when your out for a drive just put a piece of plastic over the intake trumpets.
RoadiJeff
Viper Owner
<sigh> Its pureness has already been tarnished by rain. I am no longer interested.
Andrew/USPWR
Enthusiast
I guess it would ruin it and paint all the white to Slate and polish the wheels. You guy better hope I don't win.
DodgeViper01
Enthusiast
Geez, I completely missed this one. Tiger, welcome to Dead Horse. Please grab a stick of your choice and start beating.
BELIEVE IT. Again (and again and again) - I can't tell you WHERE they advertised it, but I will find out as it seems to be such an incredibly important (and moot) issue. I do know they were originally asking $175K on it and didn't get even a nibble. And I know they advertised it elsewhere. I will find out where so you can set your mind at ease and then start hitting yourself in the forehead for having missed that particular opportunity. I know I am.
Give me a stick and I will be happy to commence the beating!!
On another note - are sitckers going to magically appear on this
one like they did with the VOI9 raffle?
one like they did with the VOI9 raffle?
DodgeViper01
Enthusiast
haha! Hey, you never know. VCA has to make advertising dollars somewhere.
santo
Viper Owner
Does anyone know if there is any difference if someone wins outside of the USA like Canada or other countries? I always wondered and have not entered a draw because of it. This one, I may take a chance with but if I win, it seems that I'd have to sell my Viper ;-)
Bob, any ideas?
Santo
Bob, any ideas?
Santo
JohnnyBravo
Enthusiast
you do realize that you have to be a VCA member to buy a ticket, right?
i am not trying to be a smartass, but i noticed that it says "enthusiast" under your username, and there is no mention anywhere that you own a viper. if you arent a VCA member, you better become one quickly!!
I have been a dues paying VCA member for at least 2 years now. I've got all the cool little badges to prove it.
I entered all of my information (including my VCA membership number and VIN number), on this site but it never changes my title or unlocks the member features. Chris Marshall was going to look into that for me. And you should know I own a Viper, because Joe Donovan is the one that tuned it.
I couldn't participate in your "guess the HP" thread because I probably knew your cars dyno numbers before you did. 1998 Viper GTS, Roe Supercharged 10.43 @ 137 on drag radials
big-n-italian
Enthusiast
i remember you now johnny!
drop lee an email to get your status changed. he should be able to hook you up.
drop lee an email to get your status changed. he should be able to hook you up.
pattymelt3605
Enthusiast
When I win it it will cost me $29,302 in taxes. 
V10SpeedLuvr
Enthusiast
So do we have to pay taxes on $750,000?? Was this vehicle offered for sale beforehand? If so, where? Why did it not sell before? When can I buy tickets? Can I have the intake swapped to an OEM intake so I can drive it in the rain or do the occasional mud bogging in it? JK! Sorry Chris--just doing my best to be a pain in the butt
Seriously, This has to be the coolest raffle car of all-time! Thanks VCA for giving us members a chance to win it!
(realistically, not all VCA members have a chance to win. Actually none of ya'll do. I cut a deal with Chris to cut and rake his lawn for the next 4,000 years if he'd rig the contest so I could win)
Seriously, This has to be the coolest raffle car of all-time! Thanks VCA for giving us members a chance to win it!
(realistically, not all VCA members have a chance to win. Actually none of ya'll do. I cut a deal with Chris to cut and rake his lawn for the next 4,000 years if he'd rig the contest so I could win)
1. "All applicable taxes, license and fees are the responsibility of the winner based on the retail value of the prize. Federal law requires the deposit of 25% of such value to be applied toward the winner’s tax liability before the prize can be released." Thus, assuming a value of $120,000.00, the winner has to come up with $30,000.00 to obtain the release of the car from the VCA. Then the winner would have to pay any applicable sales tax, titling fees and registration fees separately. The $30,000 dollars is not the total tax. It would depend on the tax bracket of the winner. Assuming maximum bracket, the federal income tax could be as much as $42,000.00. If someone had no other taxable income ( For instance they are living on non AMT municipal bond income ), the $120K would be taxed at a lower rate. Of course this does not count any additional state or local income other tangible personal property taxes that might apply.
2. As to Canada, the road to the answer is a little complicated. There is a US/Canadian income tax treaty. It contains a provision to avoid double taxation. An analysis would need to be done to determine whether a raffle prize win is covered by the treaty. Also, although the income ( raffle prize ) is US source income, it is not periodic and you are not engaged in a trade or business in the US by buying raffle tickets, so a little analysis would need to be done to see whether it is properly taxable in the US. Assuming that it is, you should receive a foreign tax credit against any Canadian tax due on the win, if any, for any US taxes paid.. ( I am assuming that the FMV of the prize from an extraterritorial ( US ) raffle win is taxable in Canada. I am also assuming that Canada has a foreign tax credit similar to that found in the Internal Revenue Code. You should check with your Canadian accountant for the precise and correct answers.) Lastly, Assuming the treaty applies to a raffle win, you would analyze the situation under the treaty to see if the result improves. I know, before you say it, the complexity seems ridiculous but the concept of national sovereignty and the meshing of two different and independent tax systems leads to the complexity.
3. The bottom line is that if someone does not have at least $35,000.00 or so laying around doing nothing plus the cost of the raffle tickets, they should probably stay out of the raffle. It is a fantastic vehicle. Thank goodness the folks at ASC did not have a clue as to how to market it. If they had posted it in our classified section, it would have probably been gone in a couple of days. If they had, in addition, moderator permitting, posted it in both the GTS and SRT forums with a minimum bid, a bidding war would have probably immediately commenced. Their loss, the VCA's gain.
2. As to Canada, the road to the answer is a little complicated. There is a US/Canadian income tax treaty. It contains a provision to avoid double taxation. An analysis would need to be done to determine whether a raffle prize win is covered by the treaty. Also, although the income ( raffle prize ) is US source income, it is not periodic and you are not engaged in a trade or business in the US by buying raffle tickets, so a little analysis would need to be done to see whether it is properly taxable in the US. Assuming that it is, you should receive a foreign tax credit against any Canadian tax due on the win, if any, for any US taxes paid.. ( I am assuming that the FMV of the prize from an extraterritorial ( US ) raffle win is taxable in Canada. I am also assuming that Canada has a foreign tax credit similar to that found in the Internal Revenue Code. You should check with your Canadian accountant for the precise and correct answers.) Lastly, Assuming the treaty applies to a raffle win, you would analyze the situation under the treaty to see if the result improves. I know, before you say it, the complexity seems ridiculous but the concept of national sovereignty and the meshing of two different and independent tax systems leads to the complexity.
3. The bottom line is that if someone does not have at least $35,000.00 or so laying around doing nothing plus the cost of the raffle tickets, they should probably stay out of the raffle. It is a fantastic vehicle. Thank goodness the folks at ASC did not have a clue as to how to market it. If they had posted it in our classified section, it would have probably been gone in a couple of days. If they had, in addition, moderator permitting, posted it in both the GTS and SRT forums with a minimum bid, a bidding war would have probably immediately commenced. Their loss, the VCA's gain.
bigmike32172
Viper Owner
Well from looking at the pics of it being in the rain, I'm not interested. Plus it looks like Martin Lawrence already owns it! 
Jay Herbert
Enthusiast
This car is absolutely spectacular in person, the pearl white paint (a Harley Davidson color by the way) is perfect. The unpainted/cleared carbon fiber is very complimentary to the pearl, and the car does not look "black and white" in person.
But the coolest part? Those stacks, they are intended to mimic the McClaren Can-Am Cars intakes, and they do. Intake stacks and side pipes, it just does not get any better. It is fantastic that the VCA was able to obtain such a tremendous car for a raffle. When it was brought up at the Presidents meeting that this car might be available for a raffle car, I think they thought someone was pulling their leg. for our current officers pulling it off.
But the coolest part? Those stacks, they are intended to mimic the McClaren Can-Am Cars intakes, and they do. Intake stacks and side pipes, it just does not get any better. It is fantastic that the VCA was able to obtain such a tremendous car for a raffle. When it was brought up at the Presidents meeting that this car might be available for a raffle car, I think they thought someone was pulling their leg.
for our current officers pulling it off.
My brother and sister VCA members and friends
Stop beating up our wonderful and extra hard working treasurer!
Seriously, we much appreciate the fantastic response the Diamondback has received as our next raffle cars and despite Chris's VERY PATIENT answers to all the notes and inquiries, I would like to just add a few more comments.
Having been personally involved in the selection of roughly the last 7 raffle vehicles I must say that with the possible exceptions of the 1 of 1 Comp Coupe raffle car and the GT 2 from years back, the Diamondback might be the most exclusive and rare animal we have yet procured for our members. It is simply OVERWHELMING! I believe the tax issue has been beat to death, but I would simply add that the VAST majority of our members would be very content to deal with any taxes once this car is parked in their garage! (and as has been said, if it bothers you, by all means don't buy a ticket and you can sleep at night knowing you will NEVER have the Diamondback to deal with)
Just a couple of additional observations regarding some of the posted info, (and I must say, why are some people always, always inclined to be negative in any way possible?) REMEMBER THE DIAMONDBACK RAFFLE IS BEING CONDUCTED ONLY TO FUND OUR CLUB FOR THE MEMBERSHIP. WHEN THE PRIZE CAN BE SOMETHING OF THIS LEVEL OF RARITY, WE CAN'T IMAGINE HOW ANY MEMBER COULD BE CRITICAL OF THIS EFFORT. NO ONE IS COMPELLED TO BUY A SINGLE TICKET, BUT NOT DOING SO PREVENTS YOUR CHANCE OF EVER OWNING A ONCE IN A LIFETIME VIPER AND AT WORST RESULTS IN YOUR HELPING YOUR CLUB! I should also note that in our recent National Board/Regional Presidents meeting in Detroit, your new National Officers were repeatedly requested to come up with new and more exclusive raffle cars. Candidly, I think the Diamondback is one helluva start!
One last item. A couple of posters seem unsatisfied as to how the VCA was able to procure this valuable car. Chris has patiently outlined the cost and some of the process, but I think one additional clarification is needed. The Diamondback was made available at the substantially reduced cost after negotiation with our friends at ASC (who for several years have applied the fantastic paint jobs on our production vipers!)and after ASC internally decided that the Diamondback could be best preserved by the VCA, who are all about vipers all the time. As some may know, many prototypes like this end up crushed or hidden in some out of sight collection, never to be seen again. ASC wanted this car to continue to be the center of Viper discussions for many years in the future; thus they gave us a fantastic price, but more important gave it to us on terms we are customarily able to meet. And yes, we did explore the Barrett Jackson alternative, but concluded that our auction would provide more certainty in return, and MOST IMPORTANT WOULD REMAIN (at least initially) WITHIN THE VIPER NATION. We further reasoned that if a future killing can be made at auction, why not allow our membership to have that opportunity rather than a non VCA member? Lastly, anyone can see that ASC gets a lot more publicity from this valuable car reciruclating within the most passionate group of sportscar owners on this planet, OUR VCA!!
Hope this information will be helpful AND BUY TICKETS AND HELP YOUR CLUB OUT!!!
My only regret about the Diamondback is that WE NATIONAL OFFICERS CANNOT BUY A TICKET!!! AHHH, THE FRUSTRATION OF LOW HANGING FRUIT....
Your frustrated but happy National President,
Bob Carroll
Stop beating up our wonderful and extra hard working treasurer!
Seriously, we much appreciate the fantastic response the Diamondback has received as our next raffle cars and despite Chris's VERY PATIENT answers to all the notes and inquiries, I would like to just add a few more comments.
Having been personally involved in the selection of roughly the last 7 raffle vehicles I must say that with the possible exceptions of the 1 of 1 Comp Coupe raffle car and the GT 2 from years back, the Diamondback might be the most exclusive and rare animal we have yet procured for our members. It is simply OVERWHELMING! I believe the tax issue has been beat to death, but I would simply add that the VAST majority of our members would be very content to deal with any taxes once this car is parked in their garage! (and as has been said, if it bothers you, by all means don't buy a ticket and you can sleep at night knowing you will NEVER have the Diamondback to deal with)
Just a couple of additional observations regarding some of the posted info, (and I must say, why are some people always, always inclined to be negative in any way possible?) REMEMBER THE DIAMONDBACK RAFFLE IS BEING CONDUCTED ONLY TO FUND OUR CLUB FOR THE MEMBERSHIP. WHEN THE PRIZE CAN BE SOMETHING OF THIS LEVEL OF RARITY, WE CAN'T IMAGINE HOW ANY MEMBER COULD BE CRITICAL OF THIS EFFORT. NO ONE IS COMPELLED TO BUY A SINGLE TICKET, BUT NOT DOING SO PREVENTS YOUR CHANCE OF EVER OWNING A ONCE IN A LIFETIME VIPER AND AT WORST RESULTS IN YOUR HELPING YOUR CLUB! I should also note that in our recent National Board/Regional Presidents meeting in Detroit, your new National Officers were repeatedly requested to come up with new and more exclusive raffle cars. Candidly, I think the Diamondback is one helluva start!
One last item. A couple of posters seem unsatisfied as to how the VCA was able to procure this valuable car. Chris has patiently outlined the cost and some of the process, but I think one additional clarification is needed. The Diamondback was made available at the substantially reduced cost after negotiation with our friends at ASC (who for several years have applied the fantastic paint jobs on our production vipers!)and after ASC internally decided that the Diamondback could be best preserved by the VCA, who are all about vipers all the time. As some may know, many prototypes like this end up crushed or hidden in some out of sight collection, never to be seen again. ASC wanted this car to continue to be the center of Viper discussions for many years in the future; thus they gave us a fantastic price, but more important gave it to us on terms we are customarily able to meet. And yes, we did explore the Barrett Jackson alternative, but concluded that our auction would provide more certainty in return, and MOST IMPORTANT WOULD REMAIN (at least initially) WITHIN THE VIPER NATION. We further reasoned that if a future killing can be made at auction, why not allow our membership to have that opportunity rather than a non VCA member? Lastly, anyone can see that ASC gets a lot more publicity from this valuable car reciruclating within the most passionate group of sportscar owners on this planet, OUR VCA!!
Hope this information will be helpful AND BUY TICKETS AND HELP YOUR CLUB OUT!!!
My only regret about the Diamondback is that WE NATIONAL OFFICERS CANNOT BUY A TICKET!!! AHHH, THE FRUSTRATION OF LOW HANGING FRUIT....
Your frustrated but happy National President,
Bob Carroll
Y2KSRT did an excellent job of reducing the concern over the valuation issue and establishing an evidentiary record for valuation. You may have just snatched defeat from victory with your assertion of a special discounted price given to the VCA by ASC. Y2KSRT said that the car was offered to the public at 175K by ASC and they could not sell it at that price. So do you want to reconsider your statement about a special price to the VCA? It is not fair to the membership for you to leave the uncertainty on the table. It is also not fair to Y2KSRT - the National Treasurer. Which is it? ASC was glad to finally sell it or the VCA got a special price? As I said above, data transparency is a good thing. Please clear this up. I think that this issue is a material fact with respect to the solicitation of the purchase of raffle tickets. Thank you in advance for providing clarification.
Bob
Bob
Flash1034
Enthusiast
Here, Here!
Is the horse dead yet?
Friends, and Bob P.
Let me again add some clarification to what I just posted. Please note that while nowhere in my post did I assert that the VCA alone or exclusively, was given "a special discounted price" or a "special price"; Indeed, I never used those phrases at all. Accuracy, like data transparency is also a good thing. However,to be "fair" upon rereading my language, I guess some ambiguity may remain as I stated the vehicle was made available at a "substantially reduced cost after negotiation". I certainly never stated such offer was exclusive to the VCA as Bob P's note may have mistakenly concluded. My fault for some lack of precision. Nonetheless, to eliminate any residual uncertainty or ambiguity I can offer some additional details which I trust will be helpful:
The VCA was not the EXCLUSIVE OR SOLE SOLICITOR OF THE DIAMONDBACK. We were informed that ASC offered the vehicle(and other ASC vehicles I might add) and was having discussions with several parties regarding the vehicle. ASC alone determined the final value and asking price for the vehicle. When we learned of its availability we pounced knowing its exclusivity and desireability, let alone the quality aspects of a OEM Viper vendor/contractor. Be very clear, that if we had passed on the Diamondback, others were ready to acquire it for the ASC offered price. The key to our "negotiation" did not revolve around the established price of 120K, but around whether ASC could work within the established VCA raffle protocols. The fact that ASC felt that the Diamondback would have the best home among Viper fanatics was a real plus for our club as we have never had the resources to buy such a vehicle "up front" as we must always await the outcome of a successful raffle to generate the resources to pay for same. Hope this clears up any residual issues regarding valuation. Bob P. after working your volunteer National Officers so hard tonight we expect you will be buying at least 10 tickets, correct? Thanks again.
Bob Carroll
Friends, and Bob P.
Let me again add some clarification to what I just posted. Please note that while nowhere in my post did I assert that the VCA alone or exclusively, was given "a special discounted price" or a "special price"; Indeed, I never used those phrases at all. Accuracy, like data transparency is also a good thing. However,to be "fair" upon rereading my language, I guess some ambiguity may remain as I stated the vehicle was made available at a "substantially reduced cost after negotiation". I certainly never stated such offer was exclusive to the VCA as Bob P's note may have mistakenly concluded. My fault for some lack of precision. Nonetheless, to eliminate any residual uncertainty or ambiguity I can offer some additional details which I trust will be helpful:
The VCA was not the EXCLUSIVE OR SOLE SOLICITOR OF THE DIAMONDBACK. We were informed that ASC offered the vehicle(and other ASC vehicles I might add) and was having discussions with several parties regarding the vehicle. ASC alone determined the final value and asking price for the vehicle. When we learned of its availability we pounced knowing its exclusivity and desireability, let alone the quality aspects of a OEM Viper vendor/contractor. Be very clear, that if we had passed on the Diamondback, others were ready to acquire it for the ASC offered price. The key to our "negotiation" did not revolve around the established price of 120K, but around whether ASC could work within the established VCA raffle protocols. The fact that ASC felt that the Diamondback would have the best home among Viper fanatics was a real plus for our club as we have never had the resources to buy such a vehicle "up front" as we must always await the outcome of a successful raffle to generate the resources to pay for same. Hope this clears up any residual issues regarding valuation. Bob P. after working your volunteer National Officers so hard tonight we expect you will be buying at least 10 tickets, correct? Thanks again.
Bob Carroll
NoRice
Viper Owner
Actually I was not using the method you described in the assumption of what the value of the car would be, as that would be flawed as you described. The car is a one off car, but it certainly can be compared to numerous other cars that are like it Bob. It was a car built for show by an aftermarket company for DC. It would be compared to other show cars that were built for show either for auto shows, SEMA, etc. Just because it is the only ASC Diamondback Viper does not make it any more difficult to appraise than any other one off show car. An appriaser will just research previous sales of show cars and will be able to come to a very reasonable opinion of value. There currently is a one off 3D Mustang that won top honors at last years SEMA show being offered at $120k. There was a SEMA award winning showcar Supra that was sold not too long ago for $80k. These are just the last 2 sales of one off show cars that I can remember, but I am sure an appriaser in this field will have numerous comparable sales to use in valuing this car and would come to a value fairly easily. The method decribed above would be the same method the IRS would use in finding the value of the car.
As for the value of the raffle tickets you are correct, however I was basing my number off the discount given when purchasing 3 tickets. If I can buy 3 tickets at $100 each, I would assume I could buy all 2500 tickets at $100 each for a total of $250k.
On another note, I am curious when you are out and about and meet new people do they immediately guess that you are lawyer?
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