Spun Out Last Night

[Tico]

Last night around 7:30 p.m. I was on my way home on Highway 528 East (returning from the movie theater) with my nine-year-old son. I was doing around 75 mph in the left hand lane and quickly came up on a brand new Dodge Durango that was in the right hand lane. The idiot crossed over into my lane and tapped his brakes (must have been a damn tourist), so to avoid getting my front end clipped I hit the brakes and turned the steering wheel slightly to the left. I immediately went into a spin (270º) and ended up in the grass between the West-bound and East-bound lanes facing in the opposite direction I was headed. Thank God the closest cars on my side of the highway were about a quarter mile back and that we didn't cross over into on-coming traffic.

My son was playing Grand Theft Auto on his PSP and when the car came to a complete stop he said, "oh snap, we should get 50 points for that spin".(LOL)

We laughed for a little bit (nervous laughter on my part) but in all honesty I almost had to reach for the extra pair of underwear I keep in the glove box.

For all of you that have taken professional driving courses - is this what should have happened from my reaction or did a temperature of 58ºF and run-flat tires have something to do with it?

 

[twinturbo3150]

I cant answer that, but glad to hear you and you son are ok

 

[VENOMAHOLIC]

Glad to hear you are both ok and car is undamaged. If somebody cut me off and there were just the 2 cars and rest of traffic a 1/4 mile back I would quick change to the lane on the left where the Durango came from basically dodging him. Passing on the left is against the law but an accident is worse and most cops would understand. Again glad you are both OK.

 

[SnakeEye]

Based on what you said happened, it seems quite plausible that in a panic reaction you may have cranked the steering wheel more quickly and severely in addition to applying more braking force than you recall to avoid the otherwise impending collision. The cool 58ºF temp with run-flats certainly didn't help the situation either. Despite your scare, glad to hear things worked out okay this time.

 

[Yellow32]

Check your cold pressure, should be at least 32, I bet it's a lot less than that. Run Flats do not have good traction at low tire pressure.

As an aside, I never trust the general public to do anything useful, I always slow down to maybe 10+ over the 'next guy' when overtaking on a similar road.

As for the 'slight' turn to the left, I would have done just the braking, straight ahead, you have the best brakes of just about any production car in the world. Given that nobody was 'on your butt', you could have easily slowed down to miss the impact...unless you were right beside him when he changed lanes.

-J

 

[opnwide]

No kidding, John. Even with antilock brakes, if enough of your traction is transferred up front due to braking.... and then you turn. Look out. Rear tires lose traction.
You gotta get to Viper Days.
My brother-in-law's friend just attended his first Viper Days and spun out. He pooped in his pants and swore he'd never go back. Now he's reconsidering because he realizes that he is learning and that this experience is making him a better driver on the street.

 

[Yellow32]

Excellent point Greg,

That turn and brake manuever can easily unsettle the back end as weight is transferred to the front and then you swap ends! In other words, he induced a bit of oversteer by what he did, application of some throttle at the right time could have averted the spin...or just brake in a straight line...

-J

 

[Viper 24]

I just finished up the SRT Track experience with Skip Barbers racing team, they did talk alot about weight transfer. Based on your description, hitting the breaks lightened up the backend sigfnicantly. The quick turn with the weight now distributed on the front caused the oversteer and broke the backend loose. Backing off the break some to more evenly distribute the weight might help in the recovery, otherwise the rule is to put both feet to the floor (clutch and break) - this will stop the car pretty quick.

I have spun my car, not at that speed but the feeling is the same - helpless. Glad to hear no one was hurt and from the sound of the landing the car did not incur much damage.

jm

 

[Viperdriver]

If you put you car on the track, you must install the Comp Coupe pan and pickup first or you'll blow the engine.

 

[Yellow32]

The comp coupe oil pan is a very important idea...but, you only lose oil pressure during heavily loaded left handers where you are really pushing the car. I put the comp coupe pan in after testing this and watching the oil pressure drop to dangerous levels.

I also understand that Motul has a racing oil that can help the motor during oil starvation events..help it from grenading that is.

Nevertheless, I too recommend the comp coupe oil pan (have one in my SRT-10).

-J

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Very glad you and your son are fine. Cars can be replaced people can not.

Very hard to say as the every situation is different.

But what you learn in programs like those offered by Skip Barber is vehicle dynamics. Which helps to explain the why and how of car control. Then practice braking, steering, etc. The other critical element is looking ahead of your car by 3-5 seconds. It is amazing how hard this concept is to practice and also amazing how much it improves safety and speed. One of the drills is a brake and turn maneuver. It is an accident avoidance drill.

My guess you would have had a much bettet chance to avoid the spin, with a few performance schools under the belt.

 

[DodgeViper01]

Glad to hear that you guys are okay. These cars are just monsters with lots of power. Unfortunately we just have to be very very careful.

 

[Black SRT]

In my previous non-ABS RT-10, hard braking would cause the rear end to jump right, in which case I would turn the steering wheel slightly clockwise in the direction of the spin. With ABS my SRT-10 brakes straight so no compensation is necessary. As stated previously, when you hard braked all your weight was forward with literally no weight on the rear wheels, so by turning the wheel left you were literally flinging the rear end in a hard counterclockwise direction.

 

[Andrew/USPWR]

Sounds like classic transfer of weight to the front tires, but glad to hear the happy ending. Always brake in a straight line and then make your turn, unless your up on trail braking. I know it's not quite that easy, especially when your carrying precious cargo. Glad you guys were not hurt.

I just finished the Skip Barber 3 day racing school at Sebring. FANTASTIC! Highly recommend it to anyone wanting to learn how the handle a race car or your own car bettter. Well worth the money. I’ve been tracking cars in driving events for about 14 years and this course gave me everything I could handle and more.

 

[Janni]

Check your cold pressure, should be at least 32, I bet it's a lot less than that. Run Flats do not have good traction at low tire pressure.

As an aside, I never trust the general public to do anything useful, I always slow down to maybe 10+ over the 'next guy' when overtaking on a similar road.

As for the 'slight' turn to the left, I would have done just the braking, straight ahead, you have the best brakes of just about any production car in the world. Given that nobody was 'on your butt', you could have easily slowed down to miss the impact...unless you were right beside him when he changed lanes.

-J

PERFECT!!!

That's why owners need to take these cars to the track - or understand exactly how competent this car is - and drive that way....

The car handles AMAZINGLY well, as long as it has the right inputs. Usually, you can't practice those inputs and the "reactionary" ones need to become second nature - and you do that by learning the proper response in a non-panic environment - i.e. on a closed course, nothing to hit, with a calm individual sitting beside you. You will be amazed what just comes back to you when you NEED it.

This car will stop faster than ANYTHING out there - including the idiot that pulled in front of you. As long as your reaction times are decent, you will have enough time to get on the binders and slow down faster than (s)he can. Adding the steering input did you in. If there was a clear lane beside you, or a shoulder, you could have braked slightly and then gotten back on the gas to not unsettle the car.

Driving on the highway is a great study in the mainstream driver ineptitude and the inability of most folks to look further ahead of them than their front bumper. We've all seen the folks that come flying up beside us, only to have to jam on the brakes because of a slow moving vehicle in their lane. They have absolutely no clue. Drive on the highway and always know where each the enxt closest vehicle is to you and what is your "escape route". Try to drive in decent traffic without hitting the brakes, plan your lane changes far enough in advance and see how many folks have to use theirs and then get back on the accelerator to change lanes. That's a great little game to play that improves your driving, keeps you focused, saves fuel and allows you to mock all the other lesser drivers...

The best thing about this car is it's ability to use it's many resources to AVOID an accident. Know the car and it's capabilities and I think many of these "I was run of the road" and "I was cut off and spun out" stories would go away.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Andrew agree with your view 100%!

The track experience can be very useful. It can also be overwhelming.

Their is no substitute for Performance Driver schools.

In a performance driving school you start with the basics. First Vehicle dynamics, tire limitations and tire limitations with braking and steering.

The actual driving starts with learning how to brake. Braking exercise accelerate then brake at a specific point(cone or light) with the goal to complete the stop within a specific area. With each run you get feed back from an instructor telling you how to improve. Seems simple but after many schools I can tell you that none to very few could brake within the specified area at the beginning of this exercise. Remember you use their cars so there is no concern about tire wear or flat spotting. This learning exercise is not part of an open track experience. Even if it were would you want to flat spot your tires? A set of Viper tires cost almost as much as a 2 day Performance Driving School.

Next exercise braking and turning are combined. So you take the braking knowledge gained and now start braking and make a lane change. Goat without make the lane change with hitting cones and to also stop within a specified area. Again immediate feed back is given on how to improve the maneuver. This exercise also is not part of an open track experience.

After these exercises some go to a skid pad(areas of wet and dry pavement) to learn how to recover from over steer and how to correct under steer. An instructor is with you providing feed back with every action (braking turning in, slide correction, pause and recovery) for improving car control. It is an amazing exercise, the first slide or spin seems like it happened is a millisecond, but in time and with practice the slide is felt early and the wheel correction is fast, you feel a pause what seems like a few seconds then quickly turn the wheel for the recovery portion. Many accidents are caused from the failure in the pause recover part of the maneuver. Again this not offered at an open track event.

Other exercises may include a ball and saucer exercise. This helps with being smooth during adding power, braking, and steering input.

At the end of the day you go to an autocross and apply your newly learned skills in a Viper.

All of this in their cars, tires, brakes and gas.

There is no substitute for a performance driving school.

Very early I learned that these schools are for novice drivers as we Professional drivers. In a Skip Barber Car Control Clinic there was a guy who during introductions said he raced cars and a week or two later he was no the Podium at the Rolex 24.

If you want to learn how to tame your Snake and improve your safety while maximizing your driving pleasure start by taking Skip Barber's performance driving schools.

The N.Calif. Region of the VCA will have a Viper Club Specific program (full day event with Viper seat time emphasized) which I will open up to all regions after our members get first shot at this event. Tentative date is March 23, 2006. Location Laguna Seca. Will get the cost(my est. is $650-700) from Skip Barber tomorrow. This event will fill fast so if you want to be put on a wait list let me know.

 

[Vipera Russelli]

Hard to say, but it could have easily been a snap-throttle oversteer. That is, if you were pushing/under load when you started the turn and then jumped off the throttle, the back end will simply fly out even before you touch the brakes. We did this intentional spin in Skippy class just to drive the lesson home. To avoid, at least get off the throttle (and better yet, on the brakes) before initiating the turn. Alternatively, turn without getting off the throttle, or at least do so very gradually while turning. The faster you're traveling, the smoother you have to be--you can **** the wheel at 25 mph with no spooky consequences, but the same move at 75 mph may send the car spinning. Honestly, you really have to go to the track and drive the car at its traction limit (which varies depending on how it's driven) until you get an actual feel for what's happening, when and why.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Good input from everybody, but none of us were there, so possibly it was just one of those unavoidable inncidents.

Sometime take that GenIII up to 80mph and then lay on the brakes as hard as you can a few times. Good experience. Everyone should do it. Better to experience it now than doing it for the first time in a panic situation like the inncident you had.

 

[Tico]

Thanks for all of the replies - obviously you all know what you're talking about.

However, some didn't understand or I wasn't able to explain myself correctly on what took place. This is a two lane highway in which I was in the left lane and the Durango was in the right lane (both going in the same direction). If I wouldn't have turned the wheel he would have clipped my front end and sent me into a spin anyhow, or even worse, forced me into on-coming traffic.

I am used to looking far ahead of my car as I rode motorcycles for many years - but this guy simply did something I never expected. Kind of like when you're right next to another car and the driver tries to change into your lane (because he's on a cell phone and not paying attention or something like that).

Problem we have here in Orlando is that most of the tourists renting cars are foreigners - and many from Latin America (where I am from) where a stop sign is treated like a yield sign (if nothing's coming floor it and don't lose your momentum).

Anyhow, thanks for all of the replies. There was no damage to my Viper whatsoever - only resulted in a small stain in my underwear.

You all stay safe and be careful out there (it's scary).

 

[InjectTheVenom]

And don't think fwd cars cant slide in cool temperatures either
Few weeks back I was on a roundabout with my car and was just about to exit (half way through the circle) when suddenly I slightly felt the back end getting away from me towards the right. I'm guessing it was caused by too quick steering, so I gently counter steered and let go of every pedal, result was that the back end came back in line.
I had a similar situation with my first car on that same roundabout which caused the car to slip sideways 90 degrees to the right for a few meters, so I can kinda relate to how you and your son must have felt.

 

[knuk]

Check your cold pressure, should be at least 32, I bet it's a lot less than that. Run Flats do not have good traction at low tire pressure.

As an aside, I never trust the general public to do anything useful, I always slow down to maybe 10+ over the 'next guy' when overtaking on a similar road.

As for the 'slight' turn to the left, I would have done just the braking, straight ahead, you have the best brakes of just about any production car in the world. Given that nobody was 'on your butt', you could have easily slowed down to miss the impact...unless you were right beside him when he changed lanes.

-J

32 psi? So why does the manufacturer suggest 29 psi?

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

29 PSI smoother ride.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Skip Barber School update. Cost is $795.00. Non-VCA price is $1050.00. This is a special corporate program for VCA members.

 

[Vipera Russelli]

Skip Barber School update. Cost is $795.00. Non-VCA price is $1050.00. This is a special corporate program for VCA members.

To what class are you referring? That's a far cry from the price for the three-day intro to racing school.

Sometime take that GenIII up to 80mph and then lay on the brakes as hard as you can a few times. Good experience. Everyone should do it. Better to experience it now than doing it for the first time in a panic situation like the inncident you had.

Great advise (and good for bedding those new brakes too)!

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

This is a one day special program for our Club.

 

[knuk]

29 PSI smoother ride.

So is 32 PSI safer? For every day driving (or for that matter all driving) should I up it to 32 from 29??
If I want a smoother ride I'll buy a Cadillac!

 

[WILDASP]

29 PSI smoother ride.

So is 32 PSI safer? For every day driving (or for that matter all driving) should I up it to 32 from 29??
If I want a smoother ride I'll buy a Cadillac!

I think DC suggests 29 for max street comfort/tire wear.Problem is,if you check pressures at 60-70 F and the temp drops without you rechecking the tire pressures,you could be running considerably less than 29psi.Personally,I try to keep mine at 29psi rear and 32-34psi front,but I also recheck any time there's much of a change in ambient temperature.A number of people here have recommended running an extra 4-5psi in the fronts to take out some of the understeer,and this does appear to work.

 

[Yellow32]

32 psi? So why does the manufacturer suggest 29 psi?

Mostly for tire wear, it's a nice generic number, far too low for rain driving, nice for warm weather driving, terrible for cold weather.

Plus, as mentioned a few msgs back, if the tire pressure is @ 29 pounds when you bought the car in May (and the ambient temps were likely above 60F) and you don't check it come cooler weather (let's say 40F morning temp), your tire pressure is going to be considerably lower because air expands when it is warmed up and contracts when chilled...so that 29 pounds might be 24 on a cold morning! If you always kept it at 29, that might be ok, but, it's too low for me. I keep my stock tires at 33-34 cold (cold meaning tire pressure first thing in the morning before you drive and heat up the tires). If you will be driving in a lot of rain, I would go for 35-37 to help the tire treads "stand up" which helps them channel water better. I just did this at Viper Days, worked great.

-J

 

[GR8_ASP]

Not sure if others have this issue but I lose pressure fairly quickly at times, with no tire damage. I can go a month without a drop in pressure and then I get a low tire warning (no I do not check every day) and sure enough I have a low tire. Refill and less than a week later it is low again. That can go for a month or so and then magically it is okay again. Has happened to both rear tires so far. All I can think of is the tire bead and thick sidewall affects.

And for those of you that think you can feel it while driving on the street I would bet you could not, until the pressure gets below 20 psi. I need a gage to find the low tire.

Damn runflats. Come on Kumho we need 19" tires.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

No problem with loss of pressure here.