Spun rod bearing at 3-4 pistons

[INSOMNIAC]

Scrapped that project. It was going to come out WAAAY to expensive to retain the A/C, and it would not have worked with Paxton cars... would have been a very difficult to market item.

Would you consider doing one off for my TT Viper?
PM me.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Thanks Daniel!

I am very impressed with your specific Viper knowledge!

Sounds like oil pressure might be OK for normal street driving but volume of oil would be insufficient under severe conditions.

Interesting observation on the swing arm pick-up; on the installed engine, in which direction will the arm move, driver's side (assuming LHD) or other side?

Maybe waiting for the 2008 model is the smarter path than try to fix what seems to be a seriously compromised situation on Gen3 engines.

Obviously, the factory knows this from experience as they must have honored a large amount of warranty claims from these built-in shortcomings (I am not quite ready to call them defects), and took the smart path by eliminating all of these issues with the 08 redesign.

Vypr Phil

Yep, you are correct. the oiling system "appears" to function correctly, until the worst of times- when it falls flat on its face. The pickup design only swings to the passenger side, not driver.

The 2008 will surely not have these issues with the new system. We have a leg up though in our 03-06 SRT's, as the 08 shares the same block. Hence, we are able to bolt the 2008 parts to our blocks, and create our own solution. There is however quite a bit of machining needed to make the 08 parts function on our cars due to cam sensor, coolent lines, etc, etc- thats where I come in, and packaging it with every nut, bolt, belt and peripheral part needed to make it work.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Would you consider doing one off for my TT Viper?
PM me.

(PM Box Full)

Sure, I dont see why not. I cant take on a project like that during my high-season however, I would have to wait until fall. I would need input from you as well so I know what will and wont work on your car.

I also advise you to hold off for now anyway, as this 2008 system may indeed be a bullet-proof godsend...we will know soon enough. Unless you specifically wanted the crankcase vacuum of the dry sump, there isnt much reason to go with it over the 2008 system... and even vacuum pumps could solve that if really needed.

Thoughts?.

 

[INSOMNIAC]

(PM Box Full)

Sure, I dont see why not. I cant take on a project like that during my high-season however, I would have to wait until fall. I would need input from you as well so I know what will and wont work on your car.

I also advise you to hold off for now anyway, as this 2008 system may indeed be a bullet-proof godsend...we will know soon enough. Unless you specifically wanted the crankcase vacuum of the dry sump, there isnt much reason to go with it over the 2008 system... and even vacuum pumps could solve that if really needed.

Thoughts?.

Emptied the PM box.

The reason I want the dry sump is on a 1200 RWHP TT Viper, sometimes the oil pressure drops on hard straight line accelerations if the tires mysteriously hook up. Long uphill turns are another problem. I have the comp coupe oil and it doesn’t do much for hard acceleration/braking, and long uphill/downhill.

I also need more crankcase vacuum. If the 2008 system will take care of all these, then I may settle for that but otherwise I will go with a dry sump to protect the $$$$ investment under the hood.

What other parts would have to be replaced for the 2008 oil system upgrade?

 

[Viper Specialty]

Emptied the PM box.

The reason I want the dry sump is on a 1200 RWHP TT Viper, sometimes the oil pressure drops on hard straight line accelerations if the tires mysteriously hook up. Long uphill turns are another problem. I have the comp coupe oil and it doesn’t do much for hard acceleration/braking, and long uphill/downhill.

I also need more crankcase vacuum. If the 2008 system will take care of all these, then I may settle for that but otherwise I will go with a dry sump to protect the $$$$ investment under the hood.

What other parts would have to be replaced for the 2008 oil system upgrade?

What you are experiencing is the primary downfall of the CC oil system- the pickup is moved to the front of the pan- BAD for big power cars! Oil pressure loss during accell is EXTREMELY bad. I had redesigned the CC oil system last year for this exact problem- it appears that great minds think alike, cause now DC did the EXACT same mods I did with the new '08 system. (Could this have anything to do with what I posted on the board back then...? one will never know...)

The 2008 parts should cure all of those, accept for the crankcase vacuum. A small electric/mechanical vacuum pump would be the answer for that.

The main components to be changed are:
-Timing Cover
-Oil Pan
-Oil Pickup
-Alternator (Bonus- new Alt is higher output)

There are MANY more, but they are all tid-bits compared to those.

 

[Flash1034]

1. A comp Coupe System will help, but it has two huge downfalls: It only swings ONE direction, and the swingarm is positioned FAR forward in the pan- a big problem if you have big power. Starvation can occur under acceleration.

2. Yes, the oiling system issues on the SRT are aggravated by High-RPM.

3. The main issues is that the galleries in the system are too small (higher vacuum during pickup) the relief valve dumps right into the inlet (introducing compressued gas bubbles which expand under vacuum), and the gerotor design is wide, with too little vane volume, causing a long distance with little inlet area, which is needed to fill the vanes while the gerotor sweeps- causing vacuum even in the gerotor vanes themselves.

The new design has MUCH larger oil galleries, it has a new style relief valve, and the galleries are designed to expel air before it goes through the relief and back into the inlet. the pump is also a large volume, but the rotors are narrower, allowing easier gerotor filling.

When I installed the CC Oil Pan in my 06, the oil pickup articulated in both lateral directions (Left and Right). My car has been flawless. FYI

Flash

 

[Viper Specialty]

When I installed the CC Oil Pan in my 06, the oil pickup articulated in both lateral directions (Left and Right). My car has been flawless. FYI

Flash

There must be a peice missing, because unless it is modified, it runs right into the side of the pan within a few degrees of going left- pointlessly. There are two stops designed to keep its movement down to about 30 degrees so it doesnt hit things in the pan. Only if it is modified, shortened, and moved will it be able to swing beyond those positions enough to matter.

 

[Boxer12]

Why not just use a baffle like they did with the LeMans cars?

 

[GTS Dean]

Scrapped that project. It was going to come out WAAAY to expensive to retain the A/C, and it would not have worked with Paxton cars... would have been a very difficult to market item.

I noticed a photograph ad in last month's Racecar Engineering magazine for an aftermarket dry-sump Viper pan that maintained the OEM A/C system. What is did NOT specify is whether it was Gen2 or Gen3 based.

Gen 2s also experienced Rod #3 starvation failures. I put 4 years and probably 2k track miles on mine before going to Joe Dozzo's hinged baffle system. I upgraded to the late-model windage tray but kept the original 7 qt. pan and the original one-hole top tray that feeds windage tray drain oil directly into the center sump. My 3-4 journals look fine after several thousand more track miles.

Apologies in advance - I did NOT forget which forum I was posting in.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I noticed a photograph ad in last month's Racecar Engineering magazine for an aftermarket dry-sump Viper pan that maintained the OEM A/C system. What is did NOT specify is whether it was Gen2 or Gen3 based.

Gen 2s also experienced Rod #3 starvation failures. I put 4 years and probably 2k track miles on mine before going to Joe Dozzo's hinged baffle system. I upgraded to the late-model windage tray but kept the original 7 qt. pan and the original one-hole top tray that feeds windage tray drain oil directly into the center sump. My 3-4 journals look fine after several thousand more track miles.

Apologies in advance - I did NOT forget which forum I was posting in.

That is a Gen-2 system. Gen-2's are able to locate the pump on the passenger side of the engine to keep the A/C, Gen-3s are not due to timing over configurations.

 

[UK Viper Nigel]

Interesting thread as my Gen I '94 RT/10 also spun the bearings on Pistons 3 & 4 a couple of years ago. Looked like oil starvation but until now I didn't know why. Makes more sense now.

Luckily I managed to get a brand new, zero miles crated motor off eBay from a Dodge Dealer. Now running it in.

Nigel
UK Viper Club

 

[Red Shift]

What are the signs of a spun bearing? Will the engine still turn?

 

[bluesrt]

sounds like someone knocking on your front door, , spun rod bearings sound like a terrible lifter tap, main bearings sound less metallic-- you will no it when you hear it i promise

 

[plumcrazy]

good analogy, you cant miss it.

your stomach will get a sinking feeling too

 

[99 R/T 10]

A lot of the problems can be solved with more oil timing built onto the bearing. Something to think about when you have to rebuild.

 

[Red Shift]

A lot of the problems can be solved with more oil timing built onto the bearing. Something to think about when you have to rebuild.

What does that mean? Is that machining to somehow better sustain the oil film layer on the bearing?

 

[PAvenomRT/10]

I noticed that several owners with Gen II cars with forged pistons (1996-99) were deliberately running 1 qt. low on oil on the track at Viper Days. Their rationale was to avoid detonation from burning excess oil as the i guess the larger tolerances with the forged pistons can allow this to happen. My question is which is potentially more detrimental, burning excessive amounts of oil when running at speed or running 1 qt low on oil at speed.
Glad i don't seem to have either problem.
PAVenomRT/10

 

[Red Shift]

I noticed that several owners with Gen II cars with forged pistons (1996-99) were deliberately running 1 qt. low on oil on the track at Viper Days. Their rationale was to avoid detonation from burning excess oil as the i guess the larger tolerances with the forged pistons can allow this to happen. My question is which is potentially more detrimental, burning excessive amounts of oil when running at speed or running 1 qt low on oil at speed.
Glad i don't seem to have either problem.
PAVenomRT/10

How does running the proper level of oil lead to burning oil? If this is because of oil being entered to the system during heavy braking and it dripping through the air filters, this problem should be fixed with a catch can before the track day.