Squirrely Viper-normal?

[syldogRT/10]

As I'm sure some of you know, I recently aquired my first Viper about 3 weeks ago. 1994 RT/10 which I love. I have been searching these boards looking for any and all info on this model car for things to improve or fix that weren't correct from the factory. FYI, the car is stock. I have driven and owned many sport cars over the years, so I am not new to how demanding a car like this is to drive. There is one question though that I thought I'd ask you long term and/or multiple Viper owners:

I realize with any car that sports wide tires there is a certian amount of road drift, but this car gets flat out squirrely/scary and darts fairly severely, especially on uneven roads. Is it normal for these cars to act this way? I will say that this car has the widest tires of any car I've ever driven, but some of the ones have come close. I checked the pressure in all tires and made sure they were set to the factory recommended 35psi front and back. I have not had an alighnment yet as I figured I'd get some input here first. I've also had a friend who is fairly knowledgable look at all the tires and we checked them for uneven wear and this is not the case. The tires are almost brand new.

If this is normal, fine. I truely enjoy the true sport feel of the Viper. It's not that I can't handle the car this way, and I haven't pushed the car hard yet as I feel I need more time in the seat to get use to it. Any help or info on this is greatly appreciated!

 

[Steve-Indy]

Yes, Vipers "wander, track, seek" on uneven roads.

You are correct...at least in MY experience...it does NOT drive like many other sports cars (XKE's, all Porsches, Lambo's, Ferrari's, Vettes)...noting one major reason is the tremendous low end torque that can spin/kill you while the unwary new driver is busy watching the tach and expecting the "danger zone" to correlate with a higher rpm as they "wind it out" ...especially on cold tires, old tires, or road surfaces that are damp or dusty.

Finally, drawing on the info that you provided..."stock 94 " and "the pressure in all tires and made sure they were set to the factory recommended 35psi front and back"...I am GUESSING that the tires are OEM SGT's that should have been thrown away in the middle-late 1990's as they are "toast".

Damn, I DO love Vipers...and yes, I drive all three Generations regularly.

Have fun and be careful while you adapt yourself to a very different car.

 

[1TONY1]

Where are you getting the 35 psi number ? On the tire or ?? Gen 2 Vipers say 29 psi on the door. They tend to move around but I do wonder about the 35.

 

[syldogRT/10]

Where are you getting the 35 psi number ? On the tire or ?? Gen 2 Vipers say 29 psi on the door. They tend to move around but I do wonder about the 35.

Says 35 in my manual so that's the number I'm going by, unless it should be some thing different?

 

[viperdude118]

Where are you getting the 35 psi number ? On the tire or ?? Gen 2 Vipers say 29 psi on the door. They tend to move around but I do wonder about the 35.

Says 35 in my manual so that's the number I'm going by, unless it should be some thing different?

Makes sense, 17 inch wheels might the 35 psi, where as 18 wheels on newer gen II's are 29 psi.

 

[Tim]

I just sold my 94 and bought a 2002 but here is what I found worked the best.

29 in front and 26 in the back. Helped for traction and for keeping the wear in the center to a minimal. Seemed like I could play a little more with the power and not have the over steer kick in as fast.

No worn parts and that should not be an issue with most of the cars unless they are high milers.

No damage history like a twisted frame.

Wheel alignment is critical to be with in specs just make sure that you max your caster out on the front tires.

Make sure the tires are worn evenly and that they are not more than a few years old as old tires are hard and will work against you.

Make sure your rims are running true as mine were out of round and once back in spec helped a lot in keeping it from darting as much.

This will help a lot but won’t eliminate it totally. Just be careful and don’t steer with your knees while drinking coffee and chatting on the cell or you will get bit.

Unfortunately this is the nature of the beast. When on good roads the car is super fun to drive. The Gen 2’s are way better then the Gen ones as well as the Gen 3 are even better than the Gen 2’s

Good luck.

Tim

 

[syldogRT/10]

Cool, thanks a lot guys. One of the main reasons I bought a Gen 1 was because I wanted what I consider to be strictly a sport car-no windows, locks, etc. I'm fine with the way it is just wanted to make sure it was normal! Thanks again!

ps-Not saying the Gen 2 n 3's aren't sports cars-God forbid! It's just that the Gen 1 is what I wanted to start with!

 

[VIPER BAZ UK]

1995 spec alighnment is the way to go as well..
Did a 93 a few weeks back and the owner thought it was a new car...

 

[PhoenixGTS]

I believe the technical term for what you are describing is "tramlining" and yes the large front tires contribute along with an aggressive castor angle. Hey Corvette guys how does a C5-C6 Vette with 275 tires up front compare in this area? Same size front tire. Does the Vette do any better?

 

[Steve-Indy]

Guys, aside from our own personnal preferences on tire pressures...the OEM recommendations supplied for Gen I Vipers 92-95 (that came with the SGT tires ) was 35 psi...the 1996 Gen I RT/10 and the 1996 Gen II GTS had 17 " wheels shod with Mxx3's with the recommendation of 29 psi (as with 97 and 98 Vipers). In 1999, the wheels went to 18" shod with Pilot Sports carrying 29 psi as a recommended pressire...and this carried over thru 2002. The Gen III's with runflats still carry the 29 psi door sticker.

...just trying to stick with the facts !!!

 

[newelly]

seems to me my 95 is the same..I liken it to flying a helicopter you look good but you always keep your hands on the controls...my 95 is the same way I think because the roads around here have major dips in them due to the big construction trucks running up all around here...but i just took it as normal for the car...did check my tires though and set them at 29 as I am running gen 3 wheels and it seems better

 

[Klayfish]

Yes, my '99 GTS is also very "squirrely" on uneven pavement or groved roads, if it's really rutted, it's quite scary.

The car seems somewhat twitchy by nature. I think it's handling limits are very high, but to squeeze that last 10% out of it in corners takes some big cajones.

Steve

 

[Warfang]

Cool, thanks a lot guys. One of the main reasons I bought a Gen 1 was because I wanted what I consider to be strictly a sport car-no windows, locks, etc. I'm fine with the way it is just wanted to make sure it was normal! Thanks again!

ps-Not saying the Gen 2 n 3's aren't sports cars-God forbid! It's just that the Gen 1 is what I wanted to start with!

No need to explain... I don't think there is one gen2 or 3 owner that would begrudge the Gen1 as the "true" sports car... the b@lls to forego all that was my draw to the Viper to begin with. We're just sissies for needing AC, ABS, and windows.

 

[klamathpro]

Get Pilot Sport PS2's for the rear and alot of the squirrelly ride will go away. My stock michelins made me go all over the road. Especially bad on 12 year old tires. Look for the 3 digit DOT number on your tire. The first two digits is the week and the last digit is the year (i.e. "3" means 1993).

 

[Vic]

Gen1s had more unsprung weight, which makes bump steer worse. The control arms were made of pipe, welded together. Forged aluminum control arms came on the Gen2.

 

[ROCKET62]

Maybe I missed it somewhere in your post - but are these the stock tires? Even with lots of tread left - they will be hard as rocks with limited grip. My 93 had only 7000 miles on the stock tires and they were down right scary. New Pilot Sports made it drive like a new car again.

 

[KepRght]

Replace the steering rack bushings with something more solid.

have the tie rod ends checked for play.

have your wheel bearings checked for play.

all of these things would give you the same symptoms even with 185/50/15's sized tires

 

[Randy]

I had the same experience with my '95 when I bought it in '97. It was so bad the car was almost uncontrollable on some rutted roads. I found out about a year later that the problem was the stock XGTZs on the car - by the time I got the car, they were total crap - no grip, followed every single tiniest scratch on the pavement, and any rutted roads were a white-knuckle experence. The answer was new tires - some weird dual-compound special racing series Bridgestone Potenza's first, then some Michelin Pilot Sports (in '99, the weird Potenza's lasted 11k miles) - the car drove completely differently, and an alignment doesn't hurt either. I can't attest to Pilot Sport 2's yet (and they don't yet make the size for the 18" Gen II rears anyway), but the Pilot Sports made the car civilized from a steering standpoint. I put two sets of the Pilot Sports on it, and got around 35k miles per set.

 

[JUCD VPR]

I also asked the same question when i first bought my 99' Rt/10. I was at PBJ my tuner and i asked him why the car was so squirrly and darty, or if it was supposed to be like that. He said it was normal, this car is a car you actually have to drive, she needs lovin and wants both your hands on her at all times.

 

[joe117]

My 94 does the darty thing on bad roads.
I found that when I went to Kouhmo 700s, the sticky cheater tire, it didn't seem to do it as much.
To me that means tires have something to do with it.

I have a 96 C4 Vette that has fairly large tires and it does none of the darty stuff ever. Tracks perfectly on any road.
I doubt very much that the wide Viper tires are the cause of the darty Viper. The Vettes don't do it.

Years ago, I drove an older C3 Vette that belonged to a buddy. The car was darting all over the place.
It turned out to be the caster adjustment was off.

I'm not an alingment guy but I know what caster is and I can see how the car might not track properly with too little caster.

 

[Rizzo]

I just sold a C5 Vette and actually the darting etc seemed a little worse on the Vette. It had a bit smoother ride but the Viper doesnt dart as bad.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

The early XGT had softer sidewalls than newer MXX3 and Pilots, so the transients feel different. It would be more compliant for road handling, and I believe the sidewall traction number was lower (stickier) at 140 front, 100 rear, than newer tires, but the more abrupt breakaway takes a little getting used to.

It was mentioned, but check the inner tie rods, under the rubber bellows boot. If the boot was torn or has a hole, the joint will wear quickly. You don't have to buy a complete rack, a Dakota inner tie rod can be modified and used. (I did.)

I'll take Vic on his offer to question authority - why would unsprung weight be correlated with bump steer? Bump steer is a steering rack position adjustment that causes toe-in or -out during droop and jounce. A Gen 2 can have bump steer.

 

[SNAKE BITE]

IF YOU HAVE ORIGINAL XGTZ tires, regardless of tread left. Get new tires and your problems will most likely be solved.

I had the exact same issues as you and after 12 years, just this year replaced the original tires with new pilot sports and couldn't believe how much better the car rides/handles/feels on the road now. It feels like a totally different car to drive.

 

[V10SpeedLuvr]

If you ever go to Destin, FL, the main road through there is horrible. Its like they laid the pavement without first leveling out the ground. You have to keep both hands on the steering wheels at all times or a Viper will be swerving BIG time. I had both hands on the steering wheel and I still looked like I was drunk

 

[Vic]

I'll take Vic on his offer to question authority - why would unsprung weight be correlated with bump steer? Bump steer is a steering rack position adjustment that causes toe-in or -out during droop and jounce. A Gen 2 can have bump steer.

The "authority" comment is "tongue in cheek", you know?

Unsprung weight makes the control arms jounce around over ruts, allowing the tires to lose contact with the road. Less unsprung weight allows the tires to follow the road better.

I didn't mean to imply unsprung weight had anything to do with the steering rack, so maybe bump steer ins't the right term to describe what I was getting at.

Don't Gen2s "toe in" at the rear, under suspension compression? Wouldn't that also contribute to poor handling over bumps? Couldn't that also be considered bump steer, since the toe-in changes the attitude of the tire? Is there only one thing that can be considered to be the cause of bump steer?

 

[Steve-Indy]

syldogRT/10, can you let us know the type of tires on your Viper??

As several have also noted...IF the tires aren the original XGT's...replace them (sorry that I called them "SGT's" in my initial responses). I remember that putting Mxx3's on our 1995 RT/10 made a world of difference back in 2000. Now, of course, there are several newer choices of Miclelin's.

I also agree with "syldogRT/10" that there is a ton of fun to be had driving a Gen I...few frills...just raw fun !!!

 

[DesertSnake]

I had very severe tramlining when I bought my '01 GTS. When I replaced the front tires and had the front end aligned, it went away completely. Not sure if it was the tires, the alignment, or a combination.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Vic, we agree then. The vertical position of the tire can result in different toe, which is the definition of bump steer, I believe. It doesn't matter how the tire got there, whether via a bump or weight in the car. The rear toe-in is designed for stability. The unsprung weight and jounce happens over rougher roads, but other than losing contact with the pavement, doesn't automatically result in toe changes.

 

[Steve-Indy]

ON A LIGHTER NOTE: The above described "tramlining" is called "nibble" in the USA...but, indeed, called "tramlining" in Great Britian...so says John Dinkle in the "Road & Track Illustrated Automotive Dictionary".

 

[JUCD VPR]

I have replaced my with new tires and its still darty, it's just something i got used to. I keep two hands on the wheel if its a bad road! I swear one day i'm going to get pulled over on a crappy road because the cop will think i'm drunk lol.