SRT/10 = Thumbs DOWN!

[Mike Brunton]

King,

I don't think it was a hype thing at all - people are free to use their cert or not, and the deadline still has not passed to exercise it - so it's not like Dodge forced quick decisions of us.

And I will go on record right now to say that I bet a case of your favorite drink vs. a case of mine that the magazines LOVE this car. I bet they will say things like "The Viper has FINALLY grown up!" and "All the good stuff, none of the bad stuff" and such comments. Bear in mind the auto mags are pretty unbiased between models - they have no particular loyalty to the GTS or SRT or RT/10 - they just report their opinions.

We shall see...

 

[DEVILDOG]

So the VIPER has finally grown up into an SRT-10. WOW!!! what an endorsement for a wild, in your face, one of a kind, true enthusiast exotic performance car! Grown up only reminds me how old I am.

 

[remster]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kungfool:
Remster,

With all this talk of people being sheep... Are you a Thelemite?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I had to look it up, so nope, not one of these.

It's some insect that eats wood, right?

 

[Mike Brunton]

Miklos,

Come on.... level with us... you've been reading that book "how to win friends and influence people", right?

 

[remster]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kungfool:
No, It's someone who follows A.Crowley's "Book of the Law."

Thelemite comes from the Greek word "Thelema" meaning Will.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


did these guys make that Thelema and Louise movie?

 

[DEVILDOG]

Brunton,
Friends don't let friends spend their money on who knows what! And friends share their true thoughts. Did you want me to do something else....be a yes man....what does the book say to you? And yes I have read it. If I say what you want will you be my friend? I don't need more friends that bad.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Jim,

You're a funny guy

I am just teasing you!

Haven't read the book - but I did stay at a holiday in express last night!

I respect anyone who says what is on their mind, but I TOTALLY disagree with you that people who bought SRT's are "posers" and not "real Viper owners". As Joe said, we are ALL real Viper owners, because we had to own one to get an SRT!

I'm sure when the GTS came out, some of the purists disliked the fact that it was more mainstream than the RT/10, but we don't see it that way now. Give the SRT some time... wait until you see and drive one.. and hang out with fellow VIPER owners in their SRT's at events.

I'm sure SRT guys will be as cool and friendly as GTS and RT/10 guys, and I'm sure the performance of the car will be 100% Viper. And I'm sure those that dont like the look will be at least partially appeased by the hardtop!

Hell, you might even find yourself ordering one someday!

 

[DEVILDOG]

Mike,
Glad we're back on a first name basis. Just to clarify, I didn't say that current Viper owners that are buying SRT-10s were posers. I said that there will be people ( posers ) that would have never bought the current Viper that will buy the more mainstream SRT-10. That's good for DC. If DC cared about the current GTS owners they would have built the new coupe for the street. I think it is awesome!!! I would buy one of those assuming the price was appropriate. I also never said the SRT-10 was bad looking I just think it is designed more conventionally to appeal to a broader consumer group ( good for DC ) and lacks the one of a kind styling of the current GTS or RT/10. Even though the SRT-10 is based off the GTSR concept coupe you must admit it has a more conventional presence than the radical coupe. Comparing the SRT-10 to other convertibles in the class it wins hands down on styling and performance. Truly hope you guys and gals get what you want at an appropriate price. After all is said you are original Viper guys and gals and that says a lot. Hopefully, DC is reading these threads and can appreciate the passion expressed by the GTS lovers and build the new coupe for the street. Yes, I'm trying to goad DC into it...surprise! DC YOU WOULD MAKE EVEN MORE MONEY! Loved the Holiday Inn Express comment!

 

[Joseph Houss]

Jim,

You've made some great points. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

My thoughts (obviously) are that Mr Fernandez knew exactly what he had to do to keep us happy! MORE POWER! MUCH BETTER AERODYNAMICS! MORE POWER! ENGINEERED EVEN STRONGER!... oh, and did I say MORE POWER?

Something else to think about, the proposed new Porsche "supercar", which the car mags are suggesting will price out at over $400K.... is ...... a convertible! ... and is far from being mainstream! Supposedly 550 HP .... so let's see... SRT-10 +K&N +smooth hose (yes, only one) ... EUREKA! I've saved over $300K!

 

[Steve Ferguson]

I guess I must bring back a point made 6 years ago. When they announced that a Viper GTS was coming with Air & Windows, I shuttered and said, "what the F**K, are they ruining the car for. this is NOT what Viper is about", then I drove one and said, "I guess that is why they build cars and I buy them". In fact I was the only "idiot", (Marty Levin, former head of Dodge, told a group of us that out of all the vouchers only one idiot ordered a GTS with no air. I told him it was ME)that selected the air delete on the order sheet.

So anyone driving a GTS is guilty of "more"(because of all the NEW amenities) pleasure, than an early RT/10 owner, and is essentially the same in your eyes as those who will enjoy the SRT/10? This is what you are essentially saying, right? That's horse crap.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Jim,

I can't argue with anything you are saying - but I have a couple of comments.

At first I too thought the styling was more mainstream... but now I'm not so sure. I don't think there are too many people out there who would never buy a Viper before, but now love them. Thats entirely subjective though so I may be wrong. I see the SRT as more evolutionary styling - sort of the Viper "growing up". Yeah, it's different, and it's not for everyone, but I see Dodge making the Viper a more serious sports car in the SRT, and while some may think they are doing that at the sacrifice of curves, I would say the SRT is an attractive car, but attractive in a different way. It certainly approaches looks from a different angle (sharp lines and subtle understatement of power and purpose, vs. the in-your-face look of the GTS). I don't think too many posers (guys who buy just for the look) will be buying these - and if they do, I expect just as many used low-mileage SRT's around as there were GTS's as these posers realize this car is all business, and not for the faint of heart.

The other comment is that I have faith in some of the folks who have seen these cars - especially those that have seen them next to current Vipers. I don't think many would say that the SRT is more attractive or aggressive than the GTS, but I think it is a lot more "long, low and wide" than the RT/10, and Steve even said it made his RT look old by comparison. When you consider this car should (hopefully) hit the high side of 200, I'm impressed

 

[GTS Dean]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve Ferguson:
...former head of Dodge, told a group of us that out of all the vouchers only one idiot ordered a GTS with no air. I told him it was ME)that selected the air delete on the order sheet.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ferguson,

Down here, a car without A/C is about as stupid as a car without a heater in your neck of the woods.

After my GTS came off the 'big orange truck,' my dealer hopped in with me and bought my first tank of gas. Then, we went for a spin. As we neared the dealership coming back, I said "don't sell my RT-10 just yet - this car is so smooth and quiet, I'm not sure it's really a Viper. I may want my black one back." I drove the GTS home that afternoon and took my favorite 4 mile test loop drive. In places where I used to go *insanely fast* in the RT, I was going _even faster_ with the GTS with no effort at all. I called him up at home that evening and said "keep the black car - I'm sold!"

A few months later, they still had the black MAMBA sitting out front, so I asked if I could swap cars for a few hours. The first thing I noticed was that I was sitting ON the seat, and not IN it. It didn't drive the same, but I quickly reacclimated myself to the fun of "sideways on demand" steering. I took it back later and said that I had lots of fun, but I still liked the coupe better.

 

[GTzViper]

I think DC should of hired Autoform to design the SRT. Did you see the limited edition speedster Autoform is designing? It has a fresh look to it but is still a Viper. I love both the current RT and GTS designs,(that's why I have both.) A superior engine does not make up for an inferior body, it must have both, that's what makes it a Viper. Like many others here I love the VGX and hope one day DC will produce it. Until then, I have plenty to play with...

 

[Mike Brunton]

Jeff,

The GTS's are not selling too well - considering sales are WAY down for 2001 and 2002. Dodge has to up the performance and refinement of the car in order to get sales up.

Would you rather have a Viper like we have now, with world class performance and more refined, for $120k? Or a better performer with some compromises in design (non-one-piece hood) for around the same price? Or no Viper at all?

They CANNOT produce the car like they do now, with better performance and refinement for anything close to the cost they do now. So you can have what you ask for - but it's going to significantly raise the price of the car. Would YOU pay &gt;$100k for a Viper? Do you think 2,000 people a year would? Because that's what Dodge needs to avoid killing the Viper.

Alot of people have complaints on the new SRT, but if the existing GTS is the benchmark of what everyone wants, then why is the 2001/2002 Viper not selling well? It's been that way for more than just a few months, and alot of people are ordering SRT's, so it's not that everyons has their wallets wrapped up too tight.

 

[GTS Dean]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Brunton:
Jeff,

The GTS's are not selling too well - considering sales are WAY down for 2001 and 2002. Alot of people have complaints on the new SRT, but if the existing GTS is the benchmark of what everyone wants, then why is the 2001/2002 Viper not selling well?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must be the ABS brakes. What else changed? (other than the Dynamic ACR dampers that are inferior to the Koni 2812s, which are in turn inferior to the "MADE IN THE USA" Penske dampers...)

 

[Mike Brunton]

Dean,

Maybe the GTS is just saturating it's market? If they have been making '67 427 Vettes since '67, nobody would want them anymore. Every car has a finite lifespan, and I think the GTS Viper maybe has had it's run? I think it's time to freshen up the design - a la SRT! This is what I am saying all along... if the GTS is so loved and everyone likes them so much, how come they ain't selling? And it ain't the economy or 9/11, because SRT's are selling, new cars are selling, and Viper sales started falling off well before the whole 9/11 thing.

 

[SRT10]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Must be the ABS brakes. What else changed?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe the change in the Economy has been the main reason. Just ask anyone who had shares of Enron

stock.(Except for Enrons management of course!

)

P.S. I love these avatars!

 

[Mike Brunton]

Mako,

Before we get too critical of DC

, let's see what they come up with first. I'm betting it will be more like 525hp, and it will be underrated at that.... hopefully intake and exhaust will be getting us close to 500 at the wheels - that'd be nice in a lighter car!

Bear in mind that the Gen I RT/10 had 400hp, the GTS had 450. However the GTS is a good 3/4 second faster in the 1/4 mile. I bet the SRT will be a good 1/2 second (maybe more!) faster in the 1/4 mile. The 2002 Z06 is rated the same as the '95 ZR-1, but it outperforms it significantly in every way

 

[GTS Dean]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Brunton:
Dean,

Maybe the GTS is just saturating it's market?

This is what I am saying all along... if the GTS is so loved and everyone likes them so much, how come they ain't selling?

And it ain't the economy or 9/11, ...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, and disagree.

The sticker price has been creeping up every year for basically the same exact package. My dealer has an '01 ACR that a (formerly) good customer backed out of and they haven't been able to move it for a year. It didn't stop that customer from buying the same car somewhere else. Delivery schedule had much to do with it. Vipers typically don't get driven very many miles and not that many get totaled, so there's a strong market for clean, used snakes with no gas guzzler and luxury tax staring at the prospective buyer. The Dot-commers have lost their shirts, pants, underwear, etc. and not as many buyers are trolling for hi-buck sports cars. It *is* the economy and 9-11.

I personally think D-C marketing has been completely out to lunch on the Viper for at least 2 years. When the auto mags tested them every year, they always used to trash them for no ABS. Now they have ABS and we can't get a heads-up test against the competition except by ourselves on the streets.

D-C blew it for themselves by dangling the slab-sided, straight-lined, mainstream styling, SRT in front of the press too early, and are paying for it now with low demand, overpriced inventory.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Dean,

Good points. I guess I am just saying that had 9/11 not happened, and had the economy not taken a dive, Viper sales would still be down - just perhaps not so much. And car sales ARE very strong in general, although I concede that high-buck-factor sports cars are probably not up across the board.

However,

Your second point - about Dodge dangling the SRT out too early really speaks to my point. If everyone hates the SRT so much, then why would if affect GTS sales? And the argument that "it's a NEW type of buyer" doesn't hold really, because the certificates were spoken for in a very short time, and these are all existing Viper owners.

I think the general population is truly READY for a new, better, sleeker, sportier Viper. I agree that the design could be more aggressive, and I think most Viper folks would probably like it more aggressive, but also I think Dodge definitely has a winner in the SRT - despite the folks that don't like it. And I think they absolutely knew exactly what they were doing.

 

[Janni]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark O:
You know Dean & Mike, there is another point to consider why the GTS's aren't selling that hot any more; It's because they haven't offered a GOOD paint color, which really compliments the car, since 1996 & 1997! (see avitar)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mark - you are a funny guy. And yet brilliant at the same time! OK, I am biased, but the blue and white IS striking...

So, the economy ***** - even though I am not "earning" less, I have cut back some. Just have to get over the impending sense of "economic doom"...

However, we thought about getting a 2002 and selling one of the 1996s. Yeah, ABS would be nice (Henry MIGHT be able to pay for the trade by flatspotted tire savings...) But really, the changes, other than ABS, have been so minor, and the color choices haven't rocked my world I cannot see the $$$ to "upgrade" being a good idea. I don't even know what a new car costs right now - with stripes costing over $3K, I know its more than I would want to spend for an ABS upgrade and not as cool a color choice. And heck, I think we've made more / better changes to our existing cars already... So, with VERY CLEAN 1996/1997s going for low $50s, its taken a chunk out of the new car market, IMO.

 

[JGK95]

I agree with Mark O only on his last post! The 96-97 Color scheme is the best. The rest of this string I'll just steer clear of!!

Jay K.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Rick,

I believe you are right, my friend. Do you think I would look good in a preists outfit?

Mark O,

I agree that blue/white is probably the best color combo Dodge ever made. However, I am going to get a replacement for my GTS at some point this year, and I have my pick of colors. I'm really thinking of either a silver/blue (the BEST color they ever did

), or a sapphire silver. I think, though, that if they did blue/white again in the future, it would sell like hotcakes!

 

[remster]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Gray:

I think that the Viper has to be unique and limited production in order to last. It also has to change (styling, increased performance, etc.) but great care needs to be taken that the changes that are made are for the reasons that make the Viper unique, not to increase the production rate or reduce cost at the expense of asthetics.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen! Amen! Amen!
DC dudes, please keep the new vipers looking like a Viper! The loyal customers can accept evolution, we won't accept revolution!

 

[King GTS]

I totally agree!!!

 

[King GTS]

Anyone have any pics of the SRT/10 with the "Hardtop" ?? I wonder how different that will make the car look?

 

[King GTS]

Bob Lutz speaks out on the new SRT/10 and he didn't mince words!! It's amazing how someone like him feels like a lot of Viper owners out there that've Posted on this thread!

He gave it "The Thumbs Down"

Bob Lutz Speaks Out On The New SRT/10

Click "News" then look under "Daily Headlines" Article #2.

 

[King GTS]

Bump......