Super Viper

[Torquemonster]

Lightweight/hi tech alloy Aluminum or magnesium castings, carbon fibre or aluminum driveshafts, 7 speed sequential box from Xtrac, dry sumped intregal transfer casing etc?

Jrkermode all these things will put a ***** on a jelly fish.

My concern re hi tech was large Dana rear end vs Porsche/Nissan etc.... the weight and size difference is huge. The Nissan units for example are very compact but enormously strong... and with proper upgrades handle 1350hp and 7 seconds passes... yet weigh and measure substantially less than the big Mopar units.

electronic AWD cut out? ahhhh grasshopper, now you see where the R & D goes and why it's sometimes worth spending the money with those who've spent 1000 times that to save re-inventing the wheel. The Nissan AWD system used on the Skylines such as the legendary GTR vary drive to the front with power load... so they are rear wheel drive until power comes on, and they load power to the front up to a predetermined limit (usually 40%)by full throttle. It is simple electronics to adjust the rate, the limits or turn off... and could be done via a knob on the dash. Skylines run a fuse box, so to switch to rear wheel drive for dyno, you pull the fuse, but this could be wired to a switch to make it easier.

Lets throw in some titanium/aluminum rods as used in Pro Stock trucks for super strength, light weight, and durability, run oil skirters to them, hand form the prototype piston to achieve a tight 0.040" quench as a model for CNC mass production. I'd like 0.0375" myself, but if you want to rpm over 7000rpm, 0.040 is safer. A good roller cam grind with fast ramp, high lift and anti-reversion headers and airflow spirals tuned into the intakes, and a MOTEC or factory pc infintitely tunable EFI setup, maybe anti-reversion titanium valves.... and we're talking one crisp V10... with teflon coated piston skirts, ceramic crowns, top shelf rings... and a head job that started from a clean slate maxed out recast head, that was port tuned and built up to reduce cross-sectional area in key areas until you break the sound barrier in air speed without dropping max flow. Compression? Who cares, its the quench and cylinder pressure that matters right thru the rpms... Tune this baby right and a blip on the throttle will be like cracking a whip! Force the air in and you can smoke all 4 all the way down the block.

low centre of gravity is key - so how about doing something radical like instead of mounting the engine per normal - as we have to recast the sump anyway - sit the engine on a plate that runs under it at minimum ground clearance level under full suspension compression (plus a safety margin). The engine has to lift the plate to twist the chassis, but this can be countered by electric struts (non load bearing) that push against sideways engine movement with equal force to maintain the engine straight up and cancelling out torque twist.... just an idea. But the engine would have no weight bearing higher than the plate under it. There are sealing issues - but nothing too difficult I wouldn't think - even if it required a second sump sandwich inside. The mounting plate could actually be the dry sump/transfer casing mounted to the chassis via vibration proof mounts that do not allow any side to side flex or twist (as that wouldn't be good for wheel alignment)... is this a stupid idea or what?

 

[Paolo Castellano]

Lightweight/hi tech alloy Aluminum or magnesium castings, carbon fibre or aluminum driveshafts, 7 speed sequential box from Xtrac, dry sumped intregal transfer casing etc?

Jrkermode all these things will put a ***** on a jelly fish.

My concern re hi tech was large Dana rear end vs Porsche/Nissan etc.... the weight and size difference is huge. The Nissan units for example are very compact but enormously strong... and with proper upgrades handle 1350hp and 7 seconds passes... yet weigh and measure substantially less than the big Mopar units.

electronic AWD cut out? ahhhh grasshopper, now you see where the R & D goes and why it's sometimes worth spending the money with those who've spent 1000 times that to save re-inventing the wheel. The Nissan AWD system used on the Skylines such as the legendary GTR vary drive to the front with power load... so they are rear wheel drive until power comes on, and they load power to the front up to a predetermined limit (usually 40%)by full throttle. It is simple electronics to adjust the rate, the limits or turn off... and could be done via a knob on the dash. Skylines run a fuse box, so to switch to rear wheel drive for dyno, you pull the fuse, but this could be wired to a switch to make it easier.

Lets throw in some titanium/aluminum rods as used in Pro Stock trucks for super strength, light weight, and durability, run oil skirters to them, hand form the prototype piston to achieve a tight 0.040" quench as a model for CNC mass production. I'd like 0.0375" myself, but if you want to rpm over 7000rpm, 0.040 is safer. A good roller cam grind with fast ramp, high lift and anti-reversion headers and airflow spirals tuned into the intakes, and a MOTEC or factory pc infintitely tunable EFI setup, maybe anti-reversion titanium valves.... and we're talking one crisp V10... with teflon coated piston skirts, ceramic crowns, top shelf rings... and a head job that started from a clean slate maxed out recast head, that was port tuned and built up to reduce cross-sectional area in key areas until you break the sound barrier in air speed without dropping max flow. Compression? Who cares, its the quench and cylinder pressure that matters right thru the rpms... Tune this baby right and a blip on the throttle will be like cracking a whip! Force the air in and you can smoke all 4 all the way down the block.

low centre of gravity is key - so how about doing something radical like instead of mounting the engine per normal - as we have to recast the sump anyway - sit the engine on a plate that runs under it at minimum ground clearance level under full suspension compression (plus a safety margin). The engine has to lift the plate to twist the chassis, but this can be countered by electric struts (non load bearing) that push against sideways engine movement with equal force to maintain the engine straight up and cancelling out torque twist.... just an idea. But the engine would have no weight bearing higher than the plate under it. There are sealing issues - but nothing too difficult I wouldn't think - even if it required a second sump sandwich inside. The mounting plate could actually be the dry sump/transfer casing mounted to the chassis via vibration proof mounts that do not allow any side to side flex or twist (as that wouldn't be good for wheel alignment)... is this a stupid idea or what?

Torquemonster, WOW! I had to read that post 3 times to take it all in! I think you should run for President! Like I said earlier, you seem to know an awful lot about an awful lot. I think they should make you in charge of getting a working prototype of the Super Viper to Smoke the Bugatti Veyron! Very impressive! Paolo

 

[jrkermode]

The Xtrac unit I described works similar to the Nissan unit, although I didn't know you could turn it completely off. Neat trick.

I am having second thoughts on the carbon driveshaft. It will be sandwiched between the header, block and undertray. Awfully hot down there. If it melts, things will get ugly in a hurry. How about thin wall, high strength steel?

I like the motor mods, if the crank can handle it. The crank already dances all around are more RPMs realistic? If we have to redesign the bottom end we'll blow our 18 month timeline.

Dry sump motor is an excellent idea. I haven't been under an SRT. Where do we put the tank?

I don't like the bottom plate mounting idea, not because it won't work, but because I would like to keep the undertray seperate to facilitate aero mods down there. After all, the race version of this Super Viper needs to be full ground effect doesn't it? Big plates like that also drive the NVH guys nuts, further delaying our schedule.

 

[Torquemonster]

Hey Paolo! The real gurus are people like Gale Banks and all the extremely gifted engineers that have been able to unbrainwash themselves out of the tunnel vision thinking in which they were trained to think laterally... outside the square, where true innovation comes from.

The rest of the auto world runs on tradition and variations on it.

But for $200k per year plus a share in the profits (and somewhere nice to stay) I'd come over there and build Chrysler a car every Veyron owner will come to fear. It'd make a super Viper the most talked about car in the world. Because of my CPA background, the ultimate car must be economic and therefore have a ripple effect far beyond the simple sales of one model. In fact I'd have a paper profit before the first car got delivered to the public by ensuring there was so much desirability on what we were achieving, pre-sales would fill the order books pre-production. If not, there would be no production.

If people want an ultimate car to fire their imagination, there must be enough willing to buy it to make it worthwile - to hell with corporate ego to build a white elephant (GT90)

I'd get some of the most gifted talent the world has to offer to sort out some platform basics, and to develop the blueprint, then sell the concept to the motoring press and the enthusiast public. We'd capture their imagination in every ultimate sense, we'd redefine the word supercar, and build enough hype around the car to have the public bursting for its release... like Bugatti have done, but go beyond them. To be the best, it'd be an international effort, but the end result must be identifiable to each of the target markets, and the USA influence would be considerable. It would also be true to the qualities that make a Viper the icon its become.. and therefore must look incredible from every angle as well as have brutal power... no 12,000rpm highly strung small bore that sounds like a wasp in a jar, but something that makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end just to hear it go by, something that makes the ground shake when it roars uncapped. We'd give that thing some base in its engine note, but it'll spin like a top too - non of this fluffy crap, like the exhaust is under water.

Any car maker with a big cheque book and the guts to issue a design brief in 4 words - "build the ultimate car" - and then stand back in a hands off policy so we could get the job done without political interference - could do it. Politics and bean counters with no vision kill what could be, not technical limitations.

There are many innovations that never see commercial reality for many reasons.. e.g. ever heard of peroxide injection? Not the crude form used in the 50's, but high tech tiny amounts passed thru a catalyst and then mixed with the air like a carb jet and injected into the airlfow.

Two Swedish brothers perfectd this before being hounded by 2 large oil companies last time i was in communication with one of them. Before some dick head shouts "not another consipracy nut" I'm not talking about something I know third hand or read in a comic, and I've not mentioned a conspiracy - simply stated that these boys were having some trouble getting their technology anywhere near mainstream.... but here's a clue.... check out some of the worlds fastest racing snowbikes - they run it.

What benefit did PFI have? Well, it increased the combustion chamber burn to over 95%.. that's good by the way. It took about 99% of dirty emissions away. And it allowed leaning back to increase fuel economy by typicaly around 30% - not huge compared to some technologies- but worthwhile. Power? you could dial in enough to straighten any crank shaft you could fit... the limitations were what the engine could stand. torque curve was basically a straight line when PFI was running - gears became optional.... pity it seems big money hasn't run with this - 1 litre of 60% pure peroxide per 10,000km really is not a lot for the average smaller engine (2 litre turbo). The handling/storage of the small quantities involved are quite straight forward... the scare mongering is just clap trap...

Why have I told you all this? Not sure Some will laugh, but someone may have the wherewithall to run this and make it work.. but expect some opposition.

Back to the 18 month thing - the above doesn't apply obviously - tho it could were funds available. you'd be amazed what can be done in a no holds barred effort - if necesary offshore! Re emissions etc etc.... thattesting an be done long after the first cars are wooing the motoring press and racing around tracks at press releases etc.... its not required until the car is sold for street use - and who says that has to be up front? If the testers are too slow - there are international standards that others around the world will be happy to meet on time, to schedule.

This is an age where we shape up or back out. I've spent years researching diferent things because the traditonal "gurus" all argued amongst themselves or followed what they got taught. How the hell are us laymen supposed to work out which advice is good and which is bad when two reputable people tell you contrary things? You goota back one and lave the other, or do your own research and find a way to understand how two successful people can get similar results by doing different things... and therefore maybe there is a deeper principle to learn if we think outside the square. There are some great engine builders in the USA and some of these guys are willing to share their knowledge - but not necessarily publish it.... others make a living off what the books teach...

remember my V10 idea of a tight quench.... if you read the Mopar engine book you'll be told that anything under 0.055" will risk hitting the piston on the head! Well gee, I've seen a tight clearance cast piston Chevy run 0.028 and rev to 5000rpm no problem. So what? Well, it could run over a point more compression on the same octane (over 10.5:1 compared to 9:1)with less detonation than the low compression engine, and made about 30hp more throughout the entire rpm range while burning less fuel and with cleaner exhaust, plus no carbon build up as the piston got so close there was no room for dirty deposits. Race engine builders have known for years the benefits of tight quench but many hate everyone knowing about it as it gives them an edge over those who are too conservative to try. warning... if you run tight quench - you must blueprint EVERY piston to cylinder head clearance... don't assume they'll all be the same - they won't be.

Another power tip - the UK aquamist water injection used on world rally cars and Bently turbos. The 120+psi injected and highly atomised vapour controlled by 3D mapping won't make power but will allow HEAPS more compression and timing, and THAT will make significant power on pump gas (12:1 + if properly built). It can also aid economy by allowing leaner cruise mix without overheating valves etc, but you'll want warning lights for low water levels and a malfunction reset to compensate if water runs out... all not technically difficult. Those who only use water to spray onto their intercoolers only use half the potential of what they could get...., but the key is the high pressure vapourisation and 3D mapping - there are great claims for the homeyard wiper motor powered H2O systems -but I'd not run one on a Viper.. maybe my junkyard hack.

By the way - a high compression engine dos not require as fast an action cam to achieve the same cylinder pressure... this means longer life. I'm a great fan of ultra fast ramps - but you'll need Oil Extreme tm to get a good life out of them, and they'll detonate like anything if the static compression is too high on pump gas due to excessive c.pressue. But for stockish c.r's fast ramps are the way t go for power everywhere (for a given duration)

Gotto go.. my diner is ready

 

[EXECMALIBU]

WHEN 8 MONTHS AGO I POSTED ON THE GENI/GENII BOARDS THAT I THOUGHT THAT THE VIPER HP AT 56HP/LITER WAS CONSIDERED LOW FOR A MODERN HI-PO ENGINE I GOT CREAMED!

I SUGGESTED THAT DC COULD EASILY BUILD A LIMITED PRODUCTION "SUPER VIPER" WITH A V-10 WITH MULTI-VALVE OVERHEAD CAM HEADS OR EVEN A V-10 HEMI!!

THE INSULTS FOR EVEN DISCUSSING SUCH BLASPHEMY CAME FAST AND FURIOUS!!

THEY INSISTED THAT THE VIPER HAS PLENTY OF POWER AND THAT NO CAR COMPANY WOULD EVER BUILD A 500HP STREET CAR (I WONT TALK ABOUT DCs TWIN TURBO V-12 S600 WITH 585HP..) AND THAT DC COULD NEVER SELL A HIGH PRICED "SUPER VIPER"!!

I TOTALLY DISAGREE..

EVERY GT-2 PORSCHE THEY BUILD IS SOLD AT $185K+ PLUS EVERY MEGA BUCK FERRARI,ASTON MARTIN,LAMBO ETC SELLS WITH NO PROBLEM! THERE IS ALWAYS A BUYER FOR THE BEST AND/OR MOST EXCLUSIVE CAR AT ALMOST ANY PRICE!

IF DC WERE TO BUILD A LIMITED PRODUCTION HI-PO/LIGHT WEIGHT "SUPER VIPER" THERE WOULD BE PLENTY OF BUYERS!!

IF DC WNTS THE VIPER TO REMAIN AS THE TOP AMERICAN MUSCLE CAR THEY WILL NEED TO RAISE THE BAR..

LETS HOPE THAT DC BUILDS A VIPER WITH AT LEAST 600HP AND MAYBE MORE..

AWD IS ALSO NOT A BAD IDEA..IT WORKS FOR PORSCHE AND LAMBO!!

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

WHEN 8 MONTHS AGO I POSTED ON THE GENI/GENII BOARDS THAT I THOUGHT THAT THE VIPER HP AT 56HP/LITER WAS CONSIDERED LOW FOR A MODERN HI-PO ENGINE I GOT CREAMED!

I SUGGESTED THAT DC COULD EASILY BUILD A LIMITED PRODUCTION "SUPER VIPER" WITH A V-10 WITH MULTI-VALVE OVERHEAD CAM HEADS OR EVEN A V-10 HEMI!!

THE INSULTS FOR EVEN DISCUSSING SUCH BLASPHEMY CAME FAST AND FURIOUS!!

THEY INSISTED THAT THE VIPER HAS PLENTY OF POWER AND THAT NO CAR COMPANY WOULD EVER BUILD A 500HP STREET CAR (I WONT TALK ABOUT DCs TWIN TURBO V-12 S600 WITH 585HP..) AND THAT DC COULD NEVER SELL A HIGH PRICED "SUPER VIPER"!!

I TOTALLY DISAGREE..

EVERY GT-2 PORSCHE THEY BUILD IS SOLD AT $185K+ PLUS EVERY MEGA BUCK FERRARI,ASTON MARTIN,LAMBO ETC SELLS WITH NO PROBLEM! THERE IS ALWAYS A BUYER FOR THE BEST AND/OR MOST EXCLUSIVE CAR AT ALMOST ANY PRICE!

IF DC WERE TO BUILD A LIMITED PRODUCTION HI-PO/LIGHT WEIGHT "SUPER VIPER" THERE WOULD BE PLENTY OF BUYERS!!

IF DC WNTS THE VIPER TO REMAIN AS THE TOP AMERICAN MUSCLE CAR THEY WILL NEED TO RAISE THE BAR..

LETS HOPE THAT DC BUILDS A VIPER WITH AT LEAST 600HP AND MAYBE MORE..

AWD IS ALSO NOT A BAD IDEA..IT WORKS FOR PORSCHE AND LAMBO!!

The reason you got creamed on was beacause you came across as a loudmouth idiot, looks like nothing's changed.

Building a "super viper" is an idea that takes away the purity of the car. AWD? are you kidding? Have a look under any remotely accurate DIE CAST model and you'll see that even the thought of adding AWD to a viper is stupid, besides, what fun does AWD provide? It kills top end and does not make for a better handling car around racetracks. Audi has a great AWD system yet was it used on it's LeMans winning cars? NOPE, how bout it's ALMS dominating cars? NOPE. AWD is good for launching, and helping plush-@ss executives drive thier high h.p. toy around in the rain. If Dodge ever were to create a low displacement, high revving AWD quad turbo supercar, I sure hope to hell they don't call it a Viper.

More power? Sure. But not at the cost of high compression, low-displacement and supercharged. How much faster are you gonna make it? The SRT does 0-60 in under 4 which will likely amount to sub 12 second 1/4 miles. The key isn't more power, it's making it usable.

 

[Paolo Castellano]

The reason you got creamed on was beacause you came across as a loudmouth idiot, looks like nothing's changed.

Building a "super viper" is an idea that takes away the purity of the car. AWD? are you kidding? Have a look under any remotely accurate DIE CAST model and you'll see that even the thought of adding AWD to a viper is stupid, besides, what fun does AWD provide? It kills top end and does not make for a better handling car around racetracks. Audi has a great AWD system yet was it used on it's LeMans winning cars? NOPE, how bout it's ALMS dominating cars? NOPE. AWD is good for launching, and helping plush-@ss executives drive thier high h.p. toy around in the rain. If Dodge ever were to create a low displacement, high revving AWD quad turbo supercar, I sure hope to hell they don't call it a Viper.

More power? Sure. But not at the cost of high compression, low-displacement and supercharged. How much faster are you gonna make it? The SRT does 0-60 in under 4 which will likely amount to sub 12 second 1/4 miles. The key isn't more power, it's making it usable.

[/QUOTE]

Craig, Who cares about this malibu exec. Let's just ignore him.

=> If you look at Torquemonster's posts, the AWD would be used on a car that would have 1000+ HP that could give the Bugatti Veyron quad turbo w-16 a spanking. I agree it would not be worth engineering and fabricating AWD for only 600 HP as the gains in what you would be getting performance wise would not be worth the price.

I think we all agree that there should not be some little whimpy motor revving to 10,000 RPM.

A couple years ago, I spoke to Rod Millen about fabricating a TT Falconer V-12, Weisman electronically controlled paddle shifted, straight cut gears, dry sumped transmission, and making the Viper AWD. Aside from the astronomical( To me anyway,) cost involved, there would have been no warranty on any of the custom fabrication or the engine or any of the engine or transmission. In the meantime, I had also talked to a member of the Viper community who had gotten a chance to road race a Viper with a Weisman transmission. He liked it but one time had considerable down time waiting for a gear set. Millen had some good ideas about how to incorporate AWD. He and Ryan Falconer are brilliant men who are at the top of whatever they do, they were very cool, but I could not afford to pay them what they would be worth for a prototypical project with no guarantees and no set price. I decided to embrace the "Stock is best" approach after seeing that 1. I could not afford to do such a thing, 2. When I went to Lingenfelter slightly after this and asked him about dry sumping the Viper V-10 among other things as AWD would have a lot more room if the motor was dry sumped and mounted with the left side slightly higher than the right. John sat me down and told me 1. that "STOCK IS BEST", and 2. Quietly he confided he had beaten Ryan Falconer in some type of performance tests souping up a Chevy Suburban.(Funny how he is such a quiet, but COMPETITIVE, Nice Guy{I hear his condition has not improved }

But now that I have found Jason Heffner to do the next best thing to a Falconer engine for my Viper which should be having 900+ RWHP and 900 RWLBS/FT upon completion, I bet AWD would come in handy off the line and up to about 130 MPH.

Craig, did you know that the Bugatti Veyron Quad turbo W-16 AWD/ 7-speed sequential paddle shift transmission will go 0-300 km/hr, or 0-186 mph in 14 seconds........ FOURTEEN SECONDS! It tops out at 253 MPH! Wouldn't it be bad a$$ to change your name to Craig 202+ MPH in less than 17 seconds? LOL!

==> This is the type of Super Viper Torquemonster and I were contemplating. One that be able to do what the Bugatti does but faster, torquier and it would be a VIPER. This Super Viper, just like the Bugatti, would redefine the ultimate performance possibilities of a Supercar. Anyway, take care and I will give you a ride in my Heffners intercooled supercharged rocket sled sometime later on this year! Paolo

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Paolo,

Thanks for the reply!

The bugatti is a very cool car definately offers unmatched performance anywhere. However I think id dodge made a supercar that was to compete with it I think it would take away drastically from the Viper nameplate as it would be totally impure from teh Viper convept. People whine enough now over how impure the SRT is! Also I say no way in he!! Mercedes would let Dodge division go toe to toe with bugatti, I think in their minds even the Viper is too high brow to be a "lowly dodge" which of course we all know is completely untrue. Even if the name wasn't changed I would think that the name would be the only thing associated between the two cars. If the engine was kept the same size and AWD was added the car would end up making Roseanne look underweight. Sure 1,000 h.p. will help it scoot to 200 mph in under 30 seconds but I'm willing to bet it would handle like a minivan on a racetrack.

This is an interesting thread, just thought I'd add my own $0.02.

 

[Torquemonster]

jrkermode - I agree re carbon fibre and excessive heat, but they'll take a bit of heat... otherwise I like aluminum alloy - light and strong, and can handle that kind of heat without fatigue... it'd be shielded anyway

Paolo - can't wait to hear about your car when you get it back... its gonna be a real Super Viper in its own right! The next time I get to the US I'd love to come and see it, and meet you. I'd love to swap a few yarns and theories over a nice cold Bud.. or two

Craig - I hear you, but when it comes to cars theres two groups - the fast and the purists. The fast cannot afford to be purists because they'd be fenced in by their own limitations they've self-imposed - nothing wrong with that - thats not a criticism, just a fact, and its a choice. You'll find Viper owners split between the two camps. To some owners - a Viper is everything they already are and nothing (much) should be done to change them. That's fine - we need these people to preserve the history.

The other group couldn't care less about what techno upgrades are done provided it looks as good as the old ones, goes like snot off a doorknob, and is a real Viper in the sense its muscular, raw unadulterated power, and has a big motor.. not less than 8 litres please.

You won't get the two groups to agree on much on this subject, but thats ok. Both groups are important and have a place.

re weight and AWD.... to an existing platform there'd be an issue that would require a fairly radical fix or simple acceptance. What Paolo and I have been addressing however is starting from a clean sheet of paper... by the way Paolo, did you know Rod and Steve Millen are kiwis?... just thought I'd throw that in

Production cars are heavy because of the way they're designed. A race space framed, caged car with state of art suspension and a carbon fibre body fitted over it could be very light even with AWD with any sized aluminum engine. It could look like a stock Viper - no one would know from the outside. It would be stiffer and stronger, but raw. It'd handle impact from all sides like a race car can, but would require 5 point harnesses instead of seat belts as wiplash could be severe due to less crumple zones than a normal production model. Who says a Super Viper has to be a full compliant production car? It can have generations of compliant children built around it, but itself could be a media bandwagon built to race and road legal in limited numbers (up to the max. before compliance is required) to build an undisputed legend - like the Race Hemi 426 - a legend that will live on for another 20 years or more, also like the Group B rally cars of the 80's. We may never see the like again, but boy that was the hey day of motorsport in darg racing and rallying.... lets do the same for road racing in a street legal car that looks like and carries the name Viper... that's what we're saying.

 

[jrkermode]

[/QUOTE]

The reason you got creamed on was beacause you came across as a loudmouth idiot, looks like nothing's changed.

Building a "super viper" is an idea that takes away the purity of the car. AWD? are you kidding? Have a look under any remotely accurate DIE CAST model and you'll see that even the thought of adding AWD to a viper is stupid, besides, what fun does AWD provide? It kills top end and does not make for a better handling car around racetracks. Audi has a great AWD system yet was it used on it's LeMans winning cars? NOPE, how bout it's ALMS dominating cars? NOPE. AWD is good for launching, and helping plush-@ss executives drive thier high h.p. toy around in the rain. If Dodge ever were to create a low displacement, high revving AWD quad turbo supercar, I sure hope to hell they don't call it a Viper.

More power? Sure. But not at the cost of high compression, low-displacement and supercharged. How much faster are you gonna make it? The SRT does 0-60 in under 4 which will likely amount to sub 12 second 1/4 miles. The key isn't more power, it's making it usable.

[/QUOTE]


Whoa down Craig,

The Audi Quattro dominated SCCA Trans Am right up until SCCA outlawed AWD. Then Audi dominated IMSA GTO, again, right up until AWD was outlawed. Granatelli's AWD Indy cars were by far the fastest, until, you guessed it, USAC outlawed AWD. Go ahead and throw in Brabham's AWD F1 car, Porsche's 959, and you get a pretty strong trend. AWD has dominated every branch of motorsports where it has appeared. So, perhaps you won't be surprised to learn that AWD is illegal for Le Mans / ALMS.

The advantage of AWD drive is, of course, traction. Sure you carry a lot of extra weight, but you simply can not beat the added traction when accelerating, that includes accelerating out of a corner.

I suggest you look up someone in your area with a high performance AWD car. The experience is not at all truck like, nor is it a sanitized experience only suitable for the rain.


P.S. How much faster you gonna make it? The Ford RS200 (AWD, 650hp, 2500lb) was capable of 0 - 62.5mph (100kmh) in 2.6 seconds, in the dirt!

 

[Torquemonster]

Extremely well put jrkermode. The same happened over in Australia across the ditch from us where Nissan pitted their Godzilla GTR Skyline against the Aussie Ford and GM V8 supercars and spanked them so bad the next year they made the AWD Skyline carry 100kg (220lb) of lead in the trunk. But it spanked them again - completely dominated... so you guessed it - they outlawed it.

As you so rightly say - all anyone has to do to appreciate ** much better AWD is - is to get a ride or drive one that has a similar power per weight to the Viper.

Craig - imagine hitting the apex of a turn in your Viper and nailing it, then steering out of the turn under full power on street rubber in a very controllable power drift - that's AWD. First time after RWD the grip and g-force coming out defies your sense of what is possible, and the car will likely be better than you are until you get used to its limits. The limits will scare the $*!@! out of anyone on the street on a windy road, and only the brave or fool hardy will use the limits without a safe runout and no traffic around.

Compare this to the RWD car that enters the turn at the same speed, hits the same apex but is now feathering the throttle several car lengths back trying to keep it on the road until its pointing at the exit - or spinning off trying to keep up. Its night and day - in the DRY let alone the wet. The weight disadvantage won't show except at the very top end - few race tracks have straights long enough to notice. A bit harder on brakes and tires, but then much faster, so which would you rather have if winning was important?

Have you any idea how potent your Viper would be if you could nail it out of a turn! Their grip is already a legend, add AWD and 500hp and you're into a brave new world.

 

[jrkermode]

We've been all over the place, are we there yet?

Is the 2004 Super Viper an AWD, supercharged, dry sumped SRT?

Metalcrafters could make the first one in about 5 months. Is it time for PVO to give them a call(http://www.metalcrafters.com)?

 

[EXECMALIBU]

The reason you got creamed on was beacause you came across as a loudmouth idiot, looks like nothing's changed.

Building a "super viper" is an idea that takes away the purity of the car. AWD? are you kidding? Have a look under any remotely accurate DIE CAST model and you'll see that even the thought of adding AWD to a viper is stupid, besides, what fun does AWD provide? It kills top end and does not make for a better handling car around racetracks. Audi has a great AWD system yet was it used on it's LeMans winning cars? NOPE, how bout it's ALMS dominating cars? NOPE. AWD is good for launching, and helping plush-@ss executives drive thier high h.p. toy around in the rain. If Dodge ever were to create a low displacement, high revving AWD quad turbo supercar, I sure hope to hell they don't call it a Viper.

More power? Sure. But not at the cost of high compression, low-displacement and supercharged. How much faster are you gonna make it? The SRT does 0-60 in under 4 which will likely amount to sub 12 second 1/4 miles. The key isn't more power, it's making it usable.

[/QUOTE]


Whoa down Craig,

The Audi Quattro dominated SCCA Trans Am right up until SCCA outlawed AWD. Then Audi dominated IMSA GTO, again, right up until AWD was outlawed. Granatelli's AWD Indy cars were by far the fastest, until, you guessed it, USAC outlawed AWD. Go ahead and throw in Brabham's AWD F1 car, Porsche's 959, and you get a pretty strong trend. AWD has dominated every branch of motorsports where it has appeared. So, perhaps you won't be surprised to learn that AWD is illegal for Le Mans / ALMS.

The advantage of AWD drive is, of course, traction. Sure you carry a lot of extra weight, but you simply can not beat the added traction when accelerating, that includes accelerating out of a corner.

I suggest you look up someone in your area with a high performance AWD car. The experience is not at all truck like, nor is it a sanitized experience only suitable for the rain.


P.S. How much faster you gonna make it? The Ford RS200 (AWD, 650hp, 2500lb) was capable of 0 - 62.5mph (100kmh) in 2.6 seconds, in the dirt!

[/QUOTE]



WHEN I SAID THAT BOTH PORSCHE AND LAMBO USED AWD I WAS THINKING ABOUT THE 959.. I REMEMBER BEING WITH NILS MIKELSON AND JACKIE STEWART IN 1989 AND THEY SAID THE AWD 959 WAS ONE OF THE MOST AMAZING CARS THEY HAD EVER DRIVEN! THEY SAID THAT THEY WOULD STAND ON THE THROTTLE (450HP) AND COULD MAKE A 90 DEGREE TURN AT 100 MPH!

"HOW MUCH FASTER YOU GONNA MAKE IT?" HOW ABOUT 3.2 SEC 0-60..FASTER THAN THE ENZO AND THE GT-2 PORSCHE..

MY 1965 427 COBRA WOULD DO 0-60 IN 3.8 SECS! BUT I GUESS CARROLL SHELBY MUST NOT HAVE BEEN IMPRESSED WITH A 3.8 SEC COBRA BECAUSE HE BUILT 2 SUPER-CHARGED 427 "SUPER COBRAS"!!

 

[Torquemonster]

Hi Execmalibu

I love Cobra's, glad you've been one of the priviledged few to own a real one. Never been in one but they must have been awe inspiring in the sixties. I'd like to get a JBL Cobra sometime - heard of them? They run state of art chassis and suspension set up, with a carbon body fitted over it - unfortunately only set up for a small block Ford - but I thought I might slip in an all aluminum 572 Mopar and call it a Fopar.

Your points are of course valid - every car made that was supposed to be fast - even the fastest - someone had to hot up to make it faster. There are twin turbo Lambo's, TT 550 Ferrari's, TT & blown Vipers, Vette "Sledgehammers", etc etc... and we can bet our tax account balances that someone will come up with a hot version of the new Veyron when it comes out. So a Super Viper is raising the bar for a select few, and at least one will use that as a base to go even further... that's what we do right? I think its great.

If no one pushed the envelope, men would still be trying to crack 4 minutes for the mile.

Bring back CAN AM unlimited - remember the old Porsche 917/30 of 1973 - in the glory days of no engine size limit, no weight restriction, no fuel consumption limits? Hey innovators like Porsche and Maclaren got into it and that's where ground effects came in, that's where 250mph lap speeds came in as the 1350hp (in qualifying - 1100hp in race trim) 917/30 would run 0-60 in 2.2; 0-100 in 4.3 and 200mph in 12.2 if I recall... amazing days... even if I was only a young teen then.

Jrkermode: where are we? I think you summed it up pretty well if the existing platform must be used. This will give a weight penalty - but it'll go very hard and will need some serious pruning meaning no luxury extras and plenty of chrome moly bracing/cage to make up for everything that must get cut away to save weight. It could use ground effects to help. AWD plus power will be more important than light weight on most tracks. Enzo like brakes will help, but a seesaw race with the Vettes catching up into a turn then getting blown out of the turn and down the straights will make for great racing.

If there was enough political will to build a lightweight platform i.e. race car from ground up and make it road legal. This could be done within 18months using existing race platforms of similar dimensions... I'd suggest a chassis from one of the top R & D facilities in England where most of the R & D is done for the very top race cars on the international circuit - the body shape would be Viper and can be made to fit over it. This would be fastest but will have only the shape in common with the normal Viper. It could weigh 2800-2900lbs or less. Consider the road going 962 Porsche - the replica made here weighs under 2000lb with 720hp+ in road legal trim - it can be done.

 

[Paolo Castellano]

We've been all over the place, are we there yet?

Is the 2004 Super Viper an AWD, supercharged, dry sumped SRT?

Metalcrafters could make the first one in about 5 months. Is it time for PVO to give them a call(http://www.metalcrafters.com)?

Jrkermode, you forget to mention that it will, of course, be a coupe!

 

[Torquemonster]

yeah!

 

[EXECMALIBU]

TORQUEMONSTER,

OBVIOUSLY CRAIG 201MPH CANT UNDERSTAND WHAT A REALLY FAST CAR IS LIKE (1100HP IN A 1250LB CAR!) HE PROBABLY THINKS THAT HIS VIPER IS LIKE A 427 COBRA..HE JUST HAS NO IDEA..

WHEN I WAS RACING IN THE LATE 1970s THERE WAS A 917/30 THAT WOULD RUN IN THE CAN-AM GROUP AT RIVERSIDE AND LAGUNA SECA..IT WAS ABSOLUTELY AMAZING TO WATCH THE 917 JUST BLOW THE DOORS OFF ALL THE OTHER 700-800HP CAN-AM CARS!

AFTER ONLY THE SECOND LAP IT WAS LIKE THE 917 WAS IN A DIFFERANT RACE! THE 917 WOULD BLOW PAST THE GRANDSTANDS AND YOU WOULD WAIT 5 SECONDS FOR THE REST OF THE FIELD TO THUNDER PAST...AFTER LAP 8 THE 917 WOULD BLOW PAST AND YOU COULD GO EAT LUNCH BEFORE THE REST OF THE FIELD WOULD COME AROUND..

WHEN I GO TO THE VINTAGE RACES I GET THERE LATE BECAUSE I AM ONLY INTERESTED IN WATCHING AND HEARING THE F-1 AND CAM-AM CARS AT SPEED...



.

IN THE OLD DAYS WHEN THEY WERE INTO BUILDING FAST CARS THEY WOULD TRY ANYTHING.. LIKE STRAPPING A 426 HEMI TO A SKATEBOARD AND THEN TRY AND RACE IT!

HEY! LETS PUT A VIPER MOTOR IN A MIATA...

 

[jrkermode]

I haven't forgotten about the coupe. I just don't think PVO could whip one together in the 18 month timeframe. First you spend forever while every gives their opinion. The someone has to figure out how to put it together, then someone else has to figure out how to manage the NVH.

How about this? We provide some reinforcement under the back deck creating a place where we can bolt on a hard top. We also redesign the windshield uprights and header to accomodate a bolt on top. The soft top would work as normal, but when the action got serious (on the track) we could bolt on a carbon fiber hardtop. Not just any old hardtop, but one properly ribbed, forming a cage when bolted in place. The styling of the hardtop could mimick the CC. The hardtop would be really expensive, but I think most of the track guys would pay the toll. For the Sunday drives, hang the hard top in the garage.

 

[Torquemonster]

Execmalibu

You actually got to watch the 917/30 race?

I'd have given a lot to be able to see those run. The only thing I have ever actually seen on them - other than articles - was a brief video footage, which I was unable to find out where it came from - and the race went exactly as you describe... the power out of the turns was awesome! and the sound of that flat 5.4 12!

Wish I could get hold of that video - it was in a shop window I just happened to be passing.

I could just picture it as you described it... very cool. I guess the trouble now is that they can build cars too fast for drivers, the human body is only good for so many sustained g-forces etc and the effect of a ground effect car with almost 1hp per lb coming unstuck is likely to be fatal... so there are limits, but big motors definitely do fire the imagination a lot more than the wasp in a jar engines.

your comment about the Cobra brought a smile. People get too caught up about 0-60 times and 1/4 mile et etc. They think that similar times mean cars are similar... but nothing could be further from the truth. Hardly two Cobra's were the same, but some 427SC were around 2250lb I've heard (most were around 2500lb), coupled with a typical 485hp 427 - that's 4.6 lbs per hp. The Viper weighs around 3400lb and has typically around 460hp or 7.4lb per hp.

The similar performance data tells us that the Viper makes a whole lot better use of its power as one would expect - but as a DRIVING experience, especially on 1965 tires - the Cobra has not really had an equal for being brutal... and in Viper terms only guys running over 740hp will appreciate what a real strong 427 was like.

If I saw a Viper vs a Cobra - I'd put money on the Viper to win for sure most times as they're simply a better car and easier to get the best out of - but if someone knows how to tune a Cobra suspension and can hook those babies up - its goodbye into the sunset until they redline in top. They should have run high 10's on the 1/4 mile stock. Their performance data gives no indication of their real nature in real world driving... even their trap speeds sucked because wheelspin was so excessive.

To choose between a JBL Cobra and force fed Viper coupe would be too hard - so I want both! One compliments the other. The Viper is definitely the one I'd rather drive most of the time however...

Jrkermode: think outside the square. A good carbon fibre crew could put a mold together in a few days for an entire car. There are several "prototype race coupe" pictures plastered all over this board. To build an entire coupe body for these guys would be no problem just from pictures and some specs. A friend of mine built a Lambo replica like that and I defy anyone to tell the difference externally to the real thing. The compliance guys can catch up while these babies are out proving themsleves on the race tracks

 

[EXECMALIBU]

TORQUEMONSTER,
YOU CAN READ ABOUT MY COBRA IN THE SHELBY REGITRY CSX 3127..I BOUGHT IT FROM SLY STALLONE IN 1986 AND KEPT IT FOR 15 YEARS..I STILL FEEL LIKE AN IDIOT FOR SELLING IT!!!
MOST OF THE VIPER OWNERS WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND HOW RADICALLY DIFFERENT THE COBRA AND THE VIPER ARE TO DRIVE!! A VIPER MOTOR IN A MIATA IS PROBABLY A GOOD COMPARISON..

JUST BLIP THE TROTTLE A TINY BIT TO MUCH IN THE COBRA AND YOU ARE GOING SIDEWAYS..HOOSIERS ON 9.5 GT40 WHEELS HELPED BUT IT WAS STILL A MONSTER!!

YOU HAVE TO SHOW ULTRA RESPECT TO GUYS LIKE KEN MILES,MARC DONAHUE AND BOB BONDURANT.. THEY COULD DRIVE THOSE CARS ON 8 INCH BIAS PLY TIRES AT 180
+ MPH!

EVEN IF THE VIPER HAD 1000HP THE VIPER WOULD STILL FEEL TOTALLY DIFERENT BECAUSE THE COBRA WAS SOOOO MUCH SMALLER AND LIGHTER AND YOU SAT MUCH HIGHER ABOVE THE BODY AND DOORS..

I HAD WANTED TO PARK THE VIPER IN THE COBRAS SPOT BUT THE VIPER WAS WAY TO BIG!! WHICH IS SOMETHING I AM STILL GETTING USED TO..

MY OTHER CARS (FERRARI DINO SPYDER,1973 PORESCHE RS, 1958 CARRERA SPEEDSTER) ARE TINY COMPARED TO THE VIPER..

 

[VIPERnXr4ti]

Ok, well i dont own a Viper (although it is my dream car) and i have to weigh in on this thread....I am for a "Super Viper" but not exactly in the ways some of you guys are suggesting. I think what the Viper needs is a diet....a Super Viper should cost maybe in the $150k range and incorporate lots of Carbon Fiber and an extremely similar powerplant (i think the "old" 8L would do fine)....i think DC engineers could make HUGE advances over the current car with the extra 60 grand to play with....first off the car needs to be a coupe plain and simple it needs another redesign of the platform....now while the Viper is not known for its luxurious ride as is DC could take a page from Ferrari's hand book with the weight saving, the F50 had absolutly no rubber bushings period in its suspension and from what ive read very few other cars are as responsive as the F50 while turing the wheel even the McLaren F1....the F50 also has manual windows etc...for the car to handle like you want its got to have an all out "race type" suspension no rpovisions for ride quality whatsoever....carbon fiber all over the interior....titanium exhaust systems can save tons of weight(the veilside catbacks weigh in at 6lbs!) we need some real light weight wheels; take a page from the real Honda boys, Spoon Sports wheels weigh in at about 7-8lbs each(granted they are 16" so tack on some more weight for the huge rolling stock the Viper needs). If the whole body is not made from Carbon Fiber(it should be) the hood, doors, and trunk lid(or hatch) should be....the underside should be nearly totally sealed off for aerodynamics...the body needs a REAL agressive aero package sacrificing some top speed for the killer grip. i think the current Comp Coupe power levels are sufficient for the time, while DC works out the weight issues...if the Viper could weigh in under 3000lbs....get a totally redesigned shell with real agressive aero dynamics, a real race setup suspension wise(no real need for AWD if the suspension is setup right) with monster carbon fober brakes, and a downsize to crazy lightweight 17x10 and 18x12.5" wheels we may have a car that can compete without destroying the Viper image....

 

[jrkermode]

You guys keep slipping into ultimate Viper land. That's not a bad place to be, but its different than Super Viper land.

Remember the definition; a Super Viper is a serial production automobile available for delivery to the general public at the same time as the Ford GT and Lutz Corvette. It also has to be priced similar to those competitors while producing a profit for PVO in today's volumes. That's a pretty tight box.


Torquemonster,
If all you want is something named Viper to race against everybody and provide some promise of future production, we have that today in the Comp Coupe.


BTW. How come I'm such a PITA about the Super Viper defintition? An Ultimate Viper is no different from an Ultimate, Porsche, Ferrari, Mustang, Corvette, NSX, Supra, Z, etc... The discussion quickly becomes simply a catalog of the latest in automotive technology. That's interesting, but I find those discussions too detached from my world. I will never own a McLaren F1, Enzo, Veyron, etc... So, "designing" yet another one has no meaning in my world. I'm also not much of a fashion slave, so I don't see any benefit to "building up the brand" by slapping a Viper sticker on some car that has nothing to do with what I can put in my driveway.

 

[Torquemonster]

Jrkermode - your comments will strike a few chords of agreement with quite a few readers I'm sure. Its hard to argue against... but I ask you to consider this...

DC COULD build an ultimate Viper type car if they wanted to - and IF THEY DID and it was American based rather than Merc based - would you really want them to come up with a new identity?

One of THE prime assets about the Viper badge is that it denotes the ultimate mass produced American muscle car of today. Suddenly it would become a poor cousin to something else and a lot of the attention is then taken away to some new badge. I understand the purist arguement, but I'll be willing to wager that Viper stands to gain more from being associated with the best DC USA produces - in whatever low production run of an "ultimate supercar" - than to be disassociated.

re the car not being like one you can park in your garage - that is true for all supercars - that's the point - only multi-millionaires can actually indulge in them, the rest just dream about them... they inspire some, others get jealous. Wouldn't life be dull if we were all in the same thing with nothing to look up to - no one going further than anyone else?

Not that owning a supercar makes a person of better character... but it does show that there is a reward for smart business and hard work. Despite what some think - most wealth is made by honest smart thinking and hard work not shady deals and stand-over tactics.

re sticking to a Lutz Vette vs GT40 vs Super Viper concept only: the obvious is to use the new competition coupe and produce it for road legal use and apply as many of the ideas this forum has generated that make sense... many of which are summed up by our new Mustang friend above. That car should be able to get down to 2900lbs road legal. The only thing the Viper CC will have against it relative to the Vette will be heavier engine - a lot can be done in this area with new casting materials, but it'll always be heavier there, but more than make up for it in power potential. It'll not match the GT40 for centre of gravity and "potential" traction, but certainly could for power. The GT40 is not going to be anywhere NEAR the light weight of the originals, but that Ford quad cammed V8 may go to 5.4 litres like the Aussies have hybrid built up, and that would be a worry with supercharger. It may be as Paolo suggested, a blower should be added - the extra weight offset by the immense power advantage over the other 2 makes. Highly strung small blocks then compete with mildly stressed 500 cubic inches of blown V10. Raise the power advantage enough so that the small blocks are on the ragged edge to try and keep up around the average track.

Re the future: I'll be honest - the excuse for no 32 valve, quad cam V10 is short sighted - it'd be real handy in the race wars, and DC will go that way in the future anyway - so they may as well stop putting it off... that's where R & D should be going now re next generation - 8 litres and multi-cam and 4 valves per cylinder -whether theres a V8, W12, or V10 in Vipers future.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Why move the bar that high when the evolution of the Viper may bring it on as it is needed?

 

[jrkermode]

PitViper brought up product positioning earlier in this thread.

I'm all for Viper being it's own, no compromises sports car brand, with fun, no-frills cars available to folks at all kinds of price points. I'm not even that concerned it remain "American" (although I still reserve the right to be a redneck). So, if you're talking about an additional car, I like it.

What I'm against is the one and only Viper becoming a super exotic. Super exotics strike me as nothing more than a publicity stunt. Kind of like the "Bentley" at Le Mans. That badging nonsense disgusts me.

 

[Torquemonster]

It may not disgust you so much if owning one was less than a weeks income - because that is the position many of the buyers of those "super exotics" are in. Everything is relative jrkermode.

Owning a GTS 2002 will disgust a lot of people too. The average Joe sees a Viper as right up there with the exotic supercars as it is. Park your GTS alongside a Porsche Turbo or Ferrari 550 and see which car gets the most attention from the public. The Viper! The public love it!

In Auckland, NZ - at least the areas I'm around - you can't walk out the street without seeing Porsche, Mercs, Audi etc etc... but a Viper - that will stop traffic! A Viper has the most attention getting power of any car I've seen other than a Lambo. Ferrari may have the race heritage, but they have not got near the crowd effect that a new Lambo generates... and a Viper is not far behind.

Even a GT2 Porsche (an awesomely engineered car) looks just like another late model Porsche to most people. But the Viper will turn heads everywhere. And that makes some people go "wow!" and others go "that's disgusting to spend so much on a car!" It's disgusting because they cannot comprehend that what might be several years income to them is petty cash to someone else and that no one should earn that.... sounds like socialism to me.

Don't be fooled into poor mans thinking. You can presumably afford to own your GTS, and I think thats wonderful. Please allow others the freedom to enjoy whatever without disgust. Their $1m car may well be much more affordable to them than your car is to you - and maybe they give 10% of their income away to charity - and that 10% is a lot. Respect success and it will respect you.

I do respect your lack of interest in Viper going super exotic, but I had to pick up on the "disgusting" comment - been down that path of think'n myself - it didn't work. I'll stop preaching now.

Steve: You are probably right - look at the improvements made since 1993! It's easy for us to have some fun day dreaming on this forum - its been great. But however further we'd like to see DC go with an "all conquering Viper", we have to take our hats off to them for what has been done, and have some faith that they will have an answer for the Lutz Vette and GT40, and if not, that they soon will.

It all comes down to leadership in the end - you gotta have a leader with balls and drive at the top to steamroll over all the "barnacles on the [******] of progress" (who can only see excuses why something can't be done). I used to have a motto when CFO for a steel foundry/heavy engineering company - "don't tell me can't - go away and come back when you've found out HOW!" When "can't" isn't an option - anything is possible.

cheers guys...gotta work.

 

[EXECMALIBU]

PitViper brought up product positioning earlier in this thread.

I'm all for Viper being it's own, no compromises sports car brand, with fun, no-frills cars available to folks at all kinds of price points. I'm not even that concerned it remain "American" (although I still reserve the right to be a redneck). So, if you're talking about an additional car, I like it.

What I'm against is the one and only Viper becoming a super exotic. Super exotics strike me as nothing more than a publicity stunt. Kind of like the "Bentley" at Le Mans. That badging nonsense disgusts me.

JRKERMODE,
HISTORY LESSON..
WHAT YOU MAY NOT KNOW IS THAT BEFORE FERRARI,JAGUAR AND PORSCHE FOR MANY YEARS THE "BENTLEYS" WERE THE FASTEST CARS IN THE WORLD!! THEY HELD THE LAND SPEED RECORD AND BENTLEYS ALSO WON LEMANS NUMEROUS TIMES IN THEIR DAY! ROLLS ROYCE BOUGHT THEM FOR THEIR SPORTY IMAGE...

 

[EXECMALIBU]

TORQUEMONSTER,

AGAIN I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOUR IDEAS 100%!.. I POSTED EXACTLY THE SAME ISSUES BEFORE AND MOST OF THE VIPER OWNERS JUST DONT UNDERSTAND OR WERE TO INTIMIDATED..

MY IDEA WAS TO HAVE JUST THE OPTION OF A LIMITED PRODUCTION "SUPER VIPER" FOR THE STREET!! I THOUGHT THAT DC COULD CALL IT THE "S/C" (SEMI-COMPETITION) JUST LIKE SHELBY DID WITH THE 427 COBRA S/C!! DC COULD CHARGE WHAT EVER THEY WANTED FOR THE LIMITED PRODUCTION S/C...

SHELBY ONLY SOLD 54 427 S/C COBRAS.. BUT MOST LEGENDS ARE FEW IN NUMBERS!!

DC COULD CONTINUE TO BUILD THE STANDARD VIPER FOR THE REGULAR VIPER GUYS AND THEN BUILD THE LIMITED PRODUCTION $200K "S/C" FOR A FEW OF US LUNATICS THAT HAVE MORE MONEY THAN SENSE..

A FEW MONTHS AGO I SAID THAT DC SHOULD HAVE BUILT THE S/C ON THE EXISTING GEN II PLATFORM AND COULD HAVE EASILY IMPROVED THE VIPER WITH LIGHTER WEIGHT (LOOSE 300+LBS) AND ADD BETTER BRAKES..

OR!

I THOUGHT THAT THE BEST IDEA WAS EITHER A SUPER-CHARGER (LIKE ON THE NEW SL55) OR AS I SAID BEFORE JUST LET THE VIPER V-10 BREATHE LIKE ANY MODERN HI-PO ENGINE WITH MULTI-VALVE HEADS AND OVERHEAD CAMS!

THE DC ENGINEERS COULD HAVE DESIGNED AND BUILT A 650HP EMMISSIONS FRIENDLY V-10 VIPER IN THEIR SLEEP..

MOST OF THE RESPONSES I GOT WERE THAT YOU CAN MODIFY THE VIPER YOURSELF AND GET THE SAME OR EVEN BETTER RESULTS..BUT THESE GUYS JUST DONT UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A "FACTORY" BUILT LIMITED PRODUCTION CAR AND A HOMEBUILT OR AFTERMARKET CAR..

I DONT KNOW ABOUT THESE GUYS BUT ALL SERIOUS COLLECTORS ALWAYS WANT A "FACTORY ORIGINAL" AS OPPOSED TO A PUT-TOGETHER..WHO GIVES A WRAP IF THE CAR WITH THE BLOWER STICKING THROUGH THE HOOD IS MUCH FASTER THEN THE STOCK 426 HEMI..

GRANTED THERE ARE A FEW AFTERMARKET CARS THAT BECAME LEGENDS LIKE THE "YENKOS" BUT NOTHING IS LIKE A "FACTORY BUILT" ORIGINAL CAR...

THIS CONCEPT HOLDS TRUE FOR ANYTHING COLLECTIBLE..(CARS,PLANES, GUITARS, GUNS ETC,ETC..) ANY "FACTORY ORIGINAL" LIMITED PRODUCTION ITEM IS AND WILL ALWAYS BE BY FAR THE MOST DESIRABLE!!

 

[Torquemonster]

Hey EXECMALIBU - even getting used that all caps stuff

Actually all caps never did bother me - I don't know why some get so angry about such a trivial thing...

No one can argue with your point. How much would your Cobra CSX3127 be worth in excellent condition today?

How many replica's would that buy?

As you say - same for a special Viper. And you know what - there are a few on this board like you who could afford one and would stand in line with you...

Here's an idea for a Viper SC engine - DC contracts Gale Banks to develop a twin turbo setup. Power is irrelevant as it would be a given that it would be "more than adequate", the cruncher would be clean emissions, incredible partial throttle economy, great response with no lag, and awesome reliability under racing conditions. He was setting records with twin turbos while most of his current competition were still wetting their diapers on their mothers lap.

Banks already has a good relationship with Dodge Ram cummins powered owners, getting in with DC would be a marriage made in auto heaven. He now uses variable ratio turbo housings that act like a small turbo at low speed and expand to big turbo flow as rpm and load rises... He has substantial experience working with factory new vehicles and car manufacturers - even the military use him.

What do you think of that idea? It'd have to be low boost to be useable until AWD was available.... let's see - build a solid crisp 9:1 550hp engine with tight quench/dished pistons, add 9psi boost and expect around 890hp on pump gas - would that be enough? He could do 10:1 at same boost - there are ways (incl. h2o 3d mapped), but that's a whole new field... not for the novice. 10:1 is what I'd do, as you could get exceptional economy and throttle response, but 9:1 is good. Turbos can enhance economy at cruise - a fact missed by many. It'd give the car a good range out of a tank for road use. Full power would **** the tank dry like any 890hp motor.

 

[EXECMALIBU]

TORQUEMONSTER,
THIS IS THE ONLY SITE THAT ANYONE HAS EVER SAID BOOOO ABOUT ME TYPING IN ALL CAPS!!..SOME GUYS TYPE IN ALL LOWER CASE SOOOOOO THE FU*K WHAT...

IF YOU WROTE A LETTER IN PRINT AS OPPOSED TO HAND WRITING THESE GUYS WOULD COMPLAIN...

I AGREE THAT MY SPELLING STINKS! BUT DONT WORRY I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH MY MATH..

MY COBRA IN VERY GOOD CONDITION (RED WITH WHITE STRIPES) AND S/C MODS SHOULD SELL IN THE VERY HIGH 200 RANGE..

CURRENTLY I HAVE AN AC MK IV COBRA HERE (ALUMINUM BODY) BUILT IN ENGLAND ON THE ORIGINAL AC BODY AND FRAME BUCKS WITH A 429CI (550HP) AND A 5 SPEED.. THE CAR IS ALMOST EXACTLY LIKE THE ORIGINAL..IT BELONGS TO MY FRIEND FROM FRANCE..HE HAS SENT IT BACK TO CALIF FOR ME TO SELL AT $73K..

I HAVE NEVER BEEN A BIG ON TURBOS.. (THE OLD 930 TURBO LAG PROBLEM)
BUT I UNDERSTAND THAT THE NEW TWIN TURBO ROCKETS ARE MUCH BETTER AND THEY DO CREATE AMAZING POWER!

LETS MAKE THIS SIMPLE...

IF YOU WILL AGREE TO LIGHTEN THE "SUPER VIPER" BY 300LBS I WILL AGREE TO TWIN TURBOS AND 890HP..

DEAL??