Supercharger worked out well.....

Sean Roe

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Hi Everyone,

As most of you know, we've been in production of the supercharger kit components for the last 6 weeks or so. The original intent was to add about 100 hp at the crank with a low boost system. The prototype worked well and everyone responded favorably when we began taking names to get on the production list.

Enough people were interested that we had to change the way the kit was built. Simply put, the one off style of the prototype was too hard to reproduce cost efficiently in any volume, in addition to quality control issues associated with so much welding. So, we redesigned the entire kit, with the intent of making it easier to produce. But, while you're there, why not bump up the efficiency and output a bit?

Well, we did just that. Instead of a fabricated sheet metal intake, we designed an intake machined out of a solid block of billet aluminum, with a better designed plenum, cleaner radius into the runners, tighter tolerances on the surfaces, etc. If you're going to make the manifold breathe better, you're going to have to increase the air inlets to the supercharger (dual 3") and put on larger aftermarket throttle bodies (70mm polished). Well then we're going to need to use 3" smooth tube and of course buy stock airboxes and modify the outlets to 3". That should do it, and it did. The result was a better kit that ended up making more power. Instead of making 100 more engine HP, we made....., well, I'll just show you....

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The compressor and pulley were the same as the prototype, running at 5.5 psi now (the increase in inlet and throttle body size reduced the vacuum at the intake of the compressor and allowed it to make more boost).

Here's a picture of the kit on our GTS. Most all of the components are the actual sample production parts. The hoses are not the actual parts as the real ones are being made in red silicone and are still a few weeks out. Unfortunately, we're still perhaps 8 weeks out on having everything here, polished, anodized, painted and fitted. That's what I get for not leaving well enough alone.
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As an FYI, the dyno test was with 1&5/8" primary tube headers, high flow cats, etc. as shown on the dyno record. We will install 1&3/4" B&B headers, no cats and 1.7 ratio rockers in steps over the next few weeks while the production parts continue to be built. We expect to make more power with the additional upgrades.

Thanks for reading,

Sean

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Sean Roe on 07-03-2002 at 06:13 PM</font>
 

onerareviper

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Holy smokes!!!!!!!!

I see 3.07 gears in my future. 3.73's may be a little much with this system.
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Congrats Sean!!! Keep up the incredible work. I see nearly 600 RWHP in my future.

Later
 

Vic

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Looks great, Sean. And looks is my biggest concern. Ha-ha, j/k.

I take one, where do I sign?
 
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SUN RA KAT

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This is like a dream come true. I'll be adding my name to your list very soon.
 

MadMaxx

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why? Why? WHY!? WHY MUST YOU TAUNT ME!?
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if can figure out the pully system to low-mount that alternator (I dont care if it's cost effective, just do it
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) on a gen1, then i'll give you my first born! I'm serious
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Man.. those are some down right killer numbers for a blower, especialy under 7K (still under 7?). I know some say 1K nitrous and your there, but the juice isn't on all the time... and I like having the power there when I push the fun pedal.

I see myself buying the kit and nearly blowing up my own motor trying to get it to fit... you don't want to see that happen do ya!? Then get to work
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MM
 

MES

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Great job Sean. While your original design worked good, this dyno looks so much better, great job on the tweaking
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Glad you didn't just stop with the original design, but instead wanted to improve upon it.
 

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<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Great job Sean! I'm really looking forward to buying it now.
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No rush here but when do you anticipate it going on the market?</FONT f>

<FONT size="2">PS:I think wilddude will be trading his gen I for a gen II soon.</FONT s>
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Bugeater

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I have a pretty good feeling I will be installing one of these on my ride...I need a project this fall!

Side note:
I find it pretty amazing how identical my HP/TQ curve is to the Mule's N/A run (mine was 438HP 479TQ vs. 440/479) with the exact same mods: Intake, smooth tubes, 1 5/8" Borla headers and catback, high flow cats. Is the Viper motor this consistent/predictable (in general) when it comes to HP/TQ gains? I do have the mopar ecu, but I dont think that does anything except keep the check engine light from being tripped..

Question to Sean:
I was BSing with Tom Sessions about the Mopar ECU. He said he believes that there is a benefit to using it when applied to a non-stock motor ie: heads/cam, forced induction etc..??? He thinks I would see a gain if I *removed* it from my car while I only had bolt-on power adders. Do you know if this is true?

Also, when was 5.5 lbs achieved in the RPMS?

Great Job Sean.
 

Motor City Mad Man

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Sean, your Viper is making about the same rwhp and torque as mine. Very similar mods. I am pleased to see what my numbers will probably look like with your SC kit. About 650 hp at the flywheel from the looks of it, 200 hp more than stock with the other mods included. Wow. And at a very reasonable price. Is the final look of the kit going to be all polished steel looking? Should look sweet.
 
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Sean Roe

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To answer a few questions (some I answered directly):

The air intake tubes on our car are just primered right now. The intent is to powder coat them red when they're all ready. The look of the kit should fit right in with everything else on the motor.

The price will be in the same ballpark and we're working out a few things. We'll be dyno testing with stock throttle bodies / air filter housing tomorrow morning. I want to see what the power is with the stock ones. Then we'll switch back to the bigger intake system and upgrade the exhaust.

The idea is to perhaps have a "Base" *** HP kit that can use stock throttle bodies and exhaust manifolds, which could later be upgraded with bigger intake, exhaust, etc., gaining another XX HP. It would be easier to emissions certify the base kit.

Fortunately, since everything is being made, I've got time to do some experimenting with different bolt-on options / configurations. I know we've got to get it to breathe out better before we can make use of any increase in boost. We're getting some boost creep with the larger intake, even at 5.5 psi . A blower cam may even be in the future. It certainly takes the right mix for everything to work out properly. You can't just turn up the boost and expect it to make more power. It has to be an efficient package and we'll keep working at it.
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Sean
 

CitySnake

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The...wait...is...killing...me!
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The fall had better see great weather in the north east. Or I'm just plain going to have to drive down to Florida for a while. It looks like a terrific product Sean! None of us ever had any doubts....but can't you spend July working a few 24 hour 7 day weeks?
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Please keep the (any) updates and info coming. I must read everything you post at lease 15 times!
 

SurfSnake

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Sean,

Do you think the system would work with the carbon fiber airbox?Mine has modified smooth tubes to fit the stock throttle bodies.
 

bad viper

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SEAN
I'm looking for something too improve performance
on my incoming Comp Coupe. The need will be for
prolonged runs..i.e. 90 miles at a time (Silverstate).
Do you think your application is appropriate?
 
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Sean Roe

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe Dozzo:
What is boost creep?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you pump more air into an engine than it can flow out, the pressure starts to back up and the boost increases. Since this is a positive displacement system and the boost is always supposed to stay the same, it's easy to see that we have boost creep in the top of the RPM range, which is a restriction in the exhaust, relative to the amount of air we're pumping in.

Regarding how long you can run it, the Silver State will not be a problem for the blower. Just make sure you have a big enough radiator, as horsepower builds heat.

No problem using the stock TB's, tubes and airbox. Used them today and made 558 RWHP and 588 RWTQ. That's the base kit. We'll make more once we free up the exhaust.

Sean

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Sean Roe on 07-06-2002 at 02:18 PM</font>
 

Toronto_ACR

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Sean could you please tell me about detonation. Does the car get any detonation since you do not have an intercooler. In my grand National it pings and detonates like crazy at higher boost levels due to the intake air getting very hot. I have to say that those are great numbers you are getting.

Thanks

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sean Roe:
If you pump more air into an engine than it can flow out, the pressure starts to back up and the boost increases. Since this is a positive displacement system and the boost is always supposed to stay the same, it's easy to see that we have boost creep in the top of the RPM range, which is a restriction in the exhaust, relative to the amount of air we're pumping in.

Regarding how long you can run it, the Silver State will not be a problem for the blower. Just make sure you have a big enough radiator, as horsepower builds heat.

No problem using the stock TB's, tubes and airbox. Used them today and made 558 RWHP and 588 RWTQ. That's the base kit. We'll make more once we free up the exhaust.

Sean
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
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Sean Roe

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We're not getting any detonation, none, nada, zip
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The twin screw is only heating the charge about 10 degrees F per lb of boost. Thanks for the comment about the graph. It will get better
smile.gif


Sean
 

Toronto_ACR

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So sean you are saying that with only 5.5 Ibs of boost you are making 565HP at the rear wheels. If that is the case then you should be getting into the 800 HP at the crank if you bumped up the boost to 10Ibs. Can you increase the boost on your supercharger by just swapping belts, and is it an easy process if the customer so chooses to. At what boost do you forsee detonation. i am very interested in your conversion kit

thanks

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sean Roe:
We're not getting any detonation, none, nada, zip
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The twin screw is only heating the charge about 10 degrees F per lb of boost. Thanks for the comment about the graph. It will get better
smile.gif


Sean
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
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Sean Roe

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We would need to start considering an aftercooler past 8 lbs.
To increase the boost just takes a smaller SC pulley and the right length belt. But, you're not going to make more power unless the exhaust (valve, lift, port size, primary size, etc.)is the appropriate size to flow it. At 8 lbs of boost you need enough exhaust to flow a 700+ cubic inch engine.

Sean
 

Joel

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Sean

Have you had any problem with the damper/pulley slipping on the crankshaft, I know that some belt slippage on the pulleys can be an integral and necessary part of a supercharger belt drive, but the crank pulley isn't keyed and is already fairly loaded with engine ancillaries. I would imagine that if the pulley ever starts to slip then it might be a problem to get it locked up again. How much horsepower or torque does it require to run the supercharger at 5 or 6 psi ?
 
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Sean Roe

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joel:
Sean

Have you had any problem with the damper/pulley slipping on the crankshaft, I know that some belt slippage on the pulleys can be an integral and necessary part of a supercharger belt drive, but the crank pulley isn't keyed and is already fairly loaded with engine ancillaries. I would imagine that if the pulley ever starts to slip then it might be a problem to get it locked up again. How much horsepower or torque does it require to run the supercharger at 5 or 6 psi ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if you can tell from the picture, but the engine only has a 6 rib belt on it for testing. The blower requires less than 1/2 HP to drive at cruise (due to the bypass valve) and about 20 HP at full throttle 5500 RPM. We received the info dirctly from Autorotor based on the boost and blower RPM we're running. No trouble with either belt slip or crank hub slip. We did make sure the crank hub was torqued to factory spec. It helps, regarding the drag, that the A/C compressor cuts off when you accelerate hard.

And what kind of SC system is it that belt slip is an integral and necessary part of?
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Sean

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Sean Roe on 07-07-2002 at 04:15 PM</font>
 

ronviper

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I see the Mustangs guys going to a larger crank pulley which increases boost not smaller belts etc. How does a small motor like the v6 turbo G.N. make so much power with stock heads ours out flow them THEY JUST INCREASE BOOST AND USE C-16 FUEL. By the way i love the flywheel i purchased for my viper from you my car hauls butt.
 
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Sean Roe

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Joel,
Yes, the shock on the belt, that explains it. When we rev up the engine with the supercharger and release, we see the factory belt tensioner loosen and tighten. If we didn't use this style tensioner and used a rigid one instead, we would probably have the belt slip you referred to.

Regarding torquing the factory hub bolt, that was a tip from Jason Heffner (Heffner's Performance). He told us about a year ago that they are not usually at their factory torque spec, even when new. Jason does a centrifugal kit for the Viper and has stopped by our shop to see our project.

Mark,
The blower uses off the shelf synthetic motor oil, multi weight. 120cc's. Self contained. Recommended change interval is 15,000 miles or less.

All the silicone intake tubes and 50 bypass valves came in today.

Sean
 

Joel

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Thanks Sean
I'm impressed with the low power taken to drive the S/C at 5.5psi. Must be running very efficiently.
It might be worth including in your fitting instructions that checking the pulley bolt torque would be a good idea. When we recently removed **** pulley the bolt did not feel like a 250lb/ft torque setting. Could this slacken in sevice, I would imagine not and yet it had not been removed before. Felt closer to about 100lb/ft !
Although I have extensive experience with turbocharging, my knowledge of supercharging in such ways as it differs is zero. Perhaps my comment on belt slippage was a bit misleading and was based on having read a section in Julian Edgars excellent Australian publication 21st Century Performance. I quote from his book .....
"Some supercharger manufacturers recommend the use of cogged (gilmer) belts with appropriate cogged pulleys. However, cogged belts should only be used on superchargers designed for this type of drive, as some superchargers rely on belt slippage to absorb shock loadings"
Anyway looking forward to seeing and working with one of your kits soon since ***'s car is thankfully at last coming together and will be ready for its supercharger in a little while
smile.gif
 

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