Superchargers: Which are being used?

[Tom and Vipers]

There is a fair amount of S/C discussion, however, I have not heard one mention of the brand of S/C used or even the type?

For instance, what types are being used? Centrifugal, Roots Type, or Screw Type?

What brands are being used? Vortech, ATI, Paxton, Whipple, Eaton, B&M?

Thanks in advance,

and always remember,
when driving your Viper,
keep the shinny side up,

Tom

 

[Matt]

Tom,

I believe all the kits available for the Viper use a centrifigul supercharger.

As to the brand, I'm pretty sure Doug Levin utilizes a Paxton Novi unit. I haven't seen any of the other kits. It would be nice to see a kit using a Vortech, maybe a T-Trim, but Doug's kits have earned high praise. You may want to contact him directly.

Matt

 

[Paolo Castellano]

Svsi uses the Vortech T&R trim models . Give us A shout 630 876 1335 .

Svsi

<FONT COLOR="Red">Please note, this was posted by Ron at SVSi, Ron forgot to remove Paulo's "cookie" which was left when Paulo had posted using one of the PC'c at SVSi. See Ron's post below. (Jay Herbert added this comment)</FONT c>

 

[Martin]

Anyone have any idea why nobody's making a Twin-Screw (Whipple or Kenne Bell) system? I did tons of research on the differences between the different types of superchargers, and the twin-screw design seems to be the best from many different standpoints. The guys at Kenne Bell have supposedly developed one some time ago (they have a CARB certification, at least) but I have yet to see it in action. I talked to Jim Bell, but he didn't have much to say.

Anyone know anything?

 

[Mike Brunton]

My guess would be size and cost. In order to use a screw type blower, you would need to mount it atop the engine. The boost a screw supercharger can provide is directly proportional to it's volume. The 8.0L Viper engine is pretty big, so the blower housing would be quite big. You'd also need a custom intake manifold ($$$$'s!) to accomodate the blower, and the hood would certainly not be able to close over it without putting a HUGE **** in or cutting a hole.

Why do all that, when you can spend $1500-2000 on a Paxton or Vortech unit, run it off the serpentine belt with minimal modification, and then plumb it inline with the throttle bodies? There really is no reason why anyone would go with a screw type supercharger, as far as I can see.

 

[Martin]

The size issue is a concern, but from the looks of the Kenne Bell blower I installed on my Grand Cherokee (4.7 V8), it shouldn't be impossible. I measured the top-to-bottom size of that unit, and it looks like it would fit with a decently designed intake manifold.

The big advantages to these units is that they generate lots of boost at low engine speeds, and are extremely efficient. Since they don't heat up the intake charge as much as centrifugal units, detonation problems are significantly reduced. For an engine like the Viper's that isn't a high-revving powerplant, this application seems like it would be a great one.

The unit I have on my Grand Cherokee (TS7000) is capable of generating over 15 psi of boost with the right pulleys, so I would think the same displacement system could be used on a Viper application to generate around 5 psi of boost without many problems.

The downside to these systems, of course, is the price. I shelled out over $4000 for mine, and I'd expect a lower volume kit for the Viper to run around $7000. If one was available, though, I'd definitely consider it! The one I installed on my Jeep absolutely kicks butt, and the quality is top-notch.

 

[Martin]

I guess it all depends on what your objectives are. Personally, I love the flat torque curve of the Viper, and I'd like to incrementally add to that flat curve. The Whipple or Autorotor type blowers have all their boost available at anytime above 2000 RPM, so you don't need to wait for high revs to get max boost. It's true that there are plenty of applications out there that use the centrifugal blowers and are pushing some really serious peak horsepower - and that's great. For my driving habits these days, though, peak horsepower isn't as important as significant horsepower increases throughout the entire RPM band. And, from my experiences, the twin-screw systems are much easier to install and much more reliable (no tapping into the engine's oil pan, drives off the serpentine belt, no moving around any of the engine's accessories).

Regarding efficiency levels, I'd really be interested in seeing a centrifugal system that rivals the twin-screw types as far as volumetric and adiabatic efficiency. From what I understand, the twin-screw systems are far more efficient - but if anyone's got information otherwise, I'd be very interested in it.

If anyone's interested, here's some propaganda that Kenne Bell put out for one of their Mustang kits. It's got some good design details...
http://www.pandjspeedshop.com/new%20pics/kb2.jpg

Before doing a bunch of research on this subject, I was sold on the centrifugals because they appeared to be much easier to install, much less complicated, and had gigantic performance potential. After checking out the twin-screw systems, though, I've become completely convinced that these systems are the right choice for my mostly-street driving. I recently did a big write-up on a Kenne Bell installation. If you have a few minutes, check it out at:
http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/jeep/tech/engine/KenneBell-WJ/index.htm

 

[Gerald]

I'm sure Doug Levin could get into this conversation with some interesting thoughts.
He uses a Vortech T-Trim on mine.SC650HP Kit. But that was before the water injection and upgraded fuel system.................


Gerald
Tampa Bay Area

 

[Svsi]

SVSI has a customer who is interested in doing Twin Whipples,We
have done some research and it can be done.We have done three
Supercharger Systems using the Vortech blower with our state of the art engine management system which gives you complete control
over the fuel and ignition .Which will eliminate detonation when
used correctly .This gives SVSI the ability to use any Supercharger or Turbos on the market that are compatible with the Viper.When you control the engine you are the master of forced induction.

SVSI

 

[Martin]

Very interesting info, Ron! I installed a Kenne Bell setup on my Grand Cherokee and it is fantastic. Do you know if this unit would have enough oomph to be able to run a solid 5 psi on the Viper (it's a TS7000 unit)? It has no problem at all running any boost up to about 15 psi in engines like my 4.7 V8, so I'm hoping that, with the right pulley choice, it should be able to pump 5 psi in the big Viper engine. Also, Kenne Bell uses this unit in kits that go onto big 454's, so I'd assume it should work OK on the Viper's 488 as long as revs stay below 6,000.

 

[Svsi]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brad Manhattan Beach:
Paolo:

When did you start working for SVSi? Based on your past involvement with these supercharger discussions, I thought that you were one of SVSi's blower customers. I can see why you were so passionate about putting other tuners down in the past. Employers have that effect on people.

I was just wondering if Paolo your real name? I really dislike people who misrepresent their motives on an open discussion like this. It's harder to get a loyal following by disparaging your competitors, than it is by letting your customers do the talking for you.

This isn't a flame job, just an observation.



<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brad just to set the record straight I posted the message that you think was Paolo. He had used one of SVSIs computers to post a message about his new five speed Jerico that he bought from us...... and forgot to take off his user name. So when I posted I found out that it was still on.

I have noticed that you make comments about Paolo and SVSI being affiliated. To set the record straight. Paolo is a very good customer of SVSI and he does a lot of research on what he is going to upgrade on his Viper. Before he is going to purchase any performace parts from anyone . His heritage and personality give him a very assertive aggresive attitude. Paolo was a world class champion ice skater,that is where he gets the competition from. I agree that some of his comments do not help SVSI but this is a free country,and I have learned to take the good with the bad. Thank you for buying the best shifter made. And when you decide to purchase a performance upgrade and want the best again call us. (630) 876-1335
<FONT COLOR="Red">
Ron
Svsi
</FONT c>

 

[Mike Brunton]

Paolo, Brad,

I've talked with both you guys about various Viper stuff over the years I've been a member of the club - and you BOTH know your stuff very well, so I hate to see you guys arguing.


Paolo, the post in question was:

&lt;&lt;&lt;
"Svsi uses the Vortech T&R trim models . Give us A shout 630 876 1335
Svsi"
&gt;&gt;&gt;

When I read that, I thought "Oh, I guess SVSi hired Paolo". It wasn't until Ron made it clear that you used their computer to post that I figured out you really didn't work there, and that it was just a mistake on the computer. Brad made his comment before Ron cleared up the confusion, so it was an honest mistake and one I would have made too.

So, let's all stay friends, Ok?

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[Jay Herbert]

I did a little editing of this thread at the request of Brad and Paolo. I'm glad to say they took the time to call each other and have a good discussion which resulted in a nice message to me requesting a little help cleaning up a few messages in this thread. As a result, I also peeled out a few messages that where in response to those I was requested to remove...... if you see something of yours missing, that is why, no communist plot

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Godspeed and Happy Holidays!

 

[Doug Supercharged Vipers]

We prefer to use both Vortech and Paxton depending on the application.
I prefer utilizing the most efficient head units, (centrifugal superchargers) that result in lower discharge temperatures. All blowers have their own efficiency level (adiabatic efficiency). The act of compressing air will result in higher discharge temperatures. It's not the discharged air that causes detonation (of course all things being equal -- timing, fuel, spark plugs, compression etc...) It's the TEMPERATURE of the discharged air.

All of our fuel systems will carry over 1000HP, call it "overkill" if you will, but fuel delivery is just one part of the key to my Super, Supercharger System.
The fuel pump contains an external check-valve for easy starting and replacement, unlike the factory pump the must be discarded if the check-valve fails.
93 octane fuel is not required, but, if more or less ignition timing is preferred, the timing can be adjusted by the driver inside the cockpit of the vehicle.

Our computer does not replace the factory ECU, rather it will interphase with it and tells it to control all parameters for fuel, spark curve, timing control. The factory map sensor does not read above atmosphere (sense boost levels), our computer does and will provide the proper input signals to compensate without any DTC's (diagnostic trouble codes = check engine lights).

Every system comes with a keyed crankshaft to ensure the damper will never spin off the crankshaft. The factory cast iron damper is replaced with an SFI approved billet damper that will rebalance itself, and a one piece billet crank pulley and dedicated ten rib belt drive system is standard. All brackets are 6061 aluminum to prevent the blower from flexing. The upper radiator hose is replaced with a chrome plated flex tube. The boost gauge (auto meter) matches the factory gauges and looks like it belongs and not an afterthought. Spark plugs are replaced, oil is changed and kept Mobil 1 synthetic. And the list goes on...

We are selling (and have been selling VERY WELL), this complete system for a limited time $11,995 installed, (original cost is $17,995 advertised in Viper Magazine).
This system comes with a one year limited warranty and is guaranteed to make at least 600 -- 650+ crank horsepower.

Joyriders welcome!

Best Wishes for the Holidays,
Doug Levin

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Doug Levin Motorsports 305 249-RACE (7223)

 

[TurboSnake]

17K for a Supercharger,thats preposterous!

How many more parts go into a Paxton or a Vortech for a Viper than on a Mustang,Vette,or Camaro which can be purchased for less than 4000 bucks???

Maybe someone can help me to understand,the Vortech head units are around 2000 bucks,where does the other 15K go to?,I did twin turbos on a Cobra for less than 4500 bucks,this seems to definitely be a case of "whatever the market will bear"

 

[Matt]

How many supercharger kits do you think they sell for a Camaro/Mustang/Corvette, now how many for a Viper? The research and development cost has to be absorbed somewhere. It can be spread out alot more on the mass-produced brand x and y cars than it can on a Viper. These prices also include a quality installation. If you consider Doug's 12K price and even compare that to a corvette kit ($4500) and add a couple thousand for professional install and it makes what is being asked for a kit that won't see nearly as many installations on Vipers seem pretty fair.

Matt

 

[TurboSnake]

I've never seen a blower install cost more than a 1000 dollars,except on a Viper,its pure price gouging,but thats the American way,and Dougs 12K price is on a limited time basis,the actual price is 17,995,whats up with the 5K price cut?

 

[Gerald]

The thing is, it's not mass produced...

For example,

Trying and buy a set of heads that are not mass produced and are made from scratch and they don't have a mold / pattern and are hand made.. I bet you would pay over 100,000 for it. The machines they are made on cost well over 30,000 - 40,000. I know I sell these machines to companies. That doesn't include labor, parts, etc.

Dougs kits are hand made. Except the actual blower. Every tube, screw, fitting, on board computer, bracket, pulley, etc are HAND made on lathes in his shop. That doesn't include the extensive head work he provides also.. I sure wish they mass produced supercharger kits, sure would be nice..

Gerald

 

[Joseph Dell]

I must admit, I was skeptical at first. I have done 5 blower installs in mustangs and blown up my share of ford motors. But after visiting with Doug in his shop, he has my business. 12k is a steal for this package. Forget the fact that he keys the crank, custom-fabricates the bracket, removes the fuel cell (quite a bear on the RT/10s), builds a new fuel system [including new lines, new pumps, new filter], custom fabricates the pipes, has pulleys made on a one-by-one basis, adds timing retard, boost guarge, adds water injection [optional], and a fantastic tentionsing system, but he also keeps a clean shop, knows what he is talking about, and focuses on customer service as his #1 priority.

I suspect that the 12k doesn't cover simply the time he is working on these kits. How many cuts of each bracket do you think it takes to get it right? In a mustang, you get a pre-cut bracket with massive belt slippage.

Suffice to say that the 12k is being well spent.

Imagine what would happen if someone sold you a "kit" that when installed blew up the motor or didn't fit right or ping-ed too much [mustang!] or didn't have the air / fuel curve remapped?

I don't work for Doug, but I'll send him my 2003 After I've driven it for a few months!

Just my .02...

JD