Supercharging a GEN 4.

[Getnlwr]

Ok Guru's. You guys know a hell of a lot more than I do. I want more power and I refuse to get passed by a GTR on the highway again. I have been looking at nitrous and weighing the pros/cons. I have read a LOT over the last couple weeks. I have a pretty good general idea on how to make it safe on a GEN 4.

With the info I have been told by some good reliable people lately. The tuning issues may be coming to a completion and tuning may be able to be done by flashing the ECU in leiu of the full custom wired in ECU. Supercharging a GEN 4 sounds like it will be possible soon. With the exception of the intake being two throttle bodies, and not one oval compared to the GEN 3. Is the front of the block for the mounting points the same? Essentially would the install of a PAXTON be IDENTICAL less the plumbing from the intercooler to the throttle bodies?

 

[Will at RSI]

It is not the same.

 

[Getnlwr]

Crap. This aught to be interesting. Any idea how different?

 

[Viper Specialty]

As Will pointed out above, the systems are quite literally completely different. We are already working on the Gen-4 version, and it shares very little with the Gen-3 setup by the time you are done.

All that said, while the flash-tuning of the PCM's may be on the horizon, it may prove to be more difficult to adapt the VENOM to a Forced Induction system than is being anticipated. The VENOM is MAF/MAP based, adding another twist onto a properly running FI setup, and we also do not know the table arrangement, adaptability to other sensor types and calibrations, and how that will pertain to FI use. As such, we are going ahead with our Gen-4 Plug and Play Engine Management System designed for use with the blower, among other things. Its a far more powerful system then the VENOM will be in any case.

 

[Dan Cragin]

Cory at Snake Oyl products has a SC kit for the Gen 4 cars. Internal engine modifications are required as the engine is very knock sensitive, it requires forged pistons and modifications to the intake manifold for proper airflow to the rear cylinders. He worked with Motorola on the engine management as was happy with the finished product. Not sure how many he is doing now.

Dan Lesser is correct, the big issue is the engine controller with forced induction on the new model. This is not a controller setup for quick changeover to a 2 Bar tuning as the Gen 3's were. Thats going to make it difficult for the aftermarket to develop a EO approved kit without using some older solutions that are not really compatable with these new engines.

Anything is possible today when it comes to performance modifications, but it would be awesome if we could come up with a emissions legal option for the new model.

 

[Hoodoo Man]

We Viper owners are very fortunate to have people like Dan at Viper Specialty, Will at RSI, and Dan Cragin sharing their thoughts. Thanks, guys!


Larry



2010 ACR
1998 ROE SC RT/10
2005 FGT
1987 BUICK GN

 

[ACRsnake]

A good bunch of guys for sho . intrested as well.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Cory at Snake Oyl products has a SC kit for the Gen 4 cars. Internal engine modifications are required as the engine is very knock sensitive, it requires forged pistons and modifications to the intake manifold for proper airflow to the rear cylinders. He worked with Motorola on the engine management as was happy with the finished product. Not sure how many he is doing now.

Dan-

Have you ever actually seen one of these or talked to a customer with one? I remember reading about it back in 2010-ish, but I have heard absolutely zero since. I wonder if this was an internal project that just never ended up making it to market...? I do recall the price point was well into the 20's for the blower end of things, which was one of the reasons that installers such as Woodhouse were reluctant to become dealers.

All in all, we are trying to keep ours at a reasonable price point, and with considerably more powerful hardware to boot.

 

[Getnlwr]

Cory at Snake Oyl products has a SC kit for the Gen 4 cars. Internal engine modifications are required as the engine is very knock sensitive, it requires forged pistons and modifications to the intake manifold for proper airflow to the rear cylinders. He worked with Motorola on the engine management as was happy with the finished product. Not sure how many he is doing now.

They do list the 08+ on the Snakeoyl site. Just no prices. It's a shame dodge made this so hard to do.

In theory wouldn't a programmer be able to limit out or numb the knock sensor stuff? You'd think it would be possible. While I understand the G4 is a differnt beast electronically I'd think being able to controll the knock retard info would be doable with a good flash. I know all of this is theoretical with the flash tuner not being released. I also know with stock internals boost would be limited from the higher compression ratio and cast slugs. But hey, even 5 PSI would be a nice little kick in the ass for acceleration.

 

[Viper Specialty]

They do list the 08+ on the Snakeoyl site. Just no prices. It's a shame dodge made this so hard to do.

In theory wouldn't a programmer be able to limit out or numb the knock sensor stuff? You'd think it would be possible. While I understand the G4 is a differnt beast electronically I'd think being able to controll the knock retard info would be doable with a good flash. I know all of this is theoretical with the flash tuner not being released. I also know with stock internals boost would be limited from the higher compression ratio and cast slugs. But hey, even 5 PSI would be a nice little kick in the ass for acceleration.

While I now they list it, I was mainly getting it the fact that to date, I have never seen so much as a photo of one, let along a dyno sheet, or a customer with one installed. I question its existence to be honest, at least in any more than a single prototype form.

I believe what Dan was getting at is not so much knock sensitivity directly [though it surely is very sensitive] but more its physical sensitivity to knock induced engine damage.

 

[Getnlwr]

In your educated opinion, (since you obviously know more than I do on this, I know I'm just learning about these beasts) Would a piston/rod swap be just a required add on (lowering the compression and strengthening the bottom end.)

 

[Viper Specialty]

In your educated opinion, (since you obviously know more than I do on this, I know I'm just learning about these beasts) Would a piston/rod swap be just a required add on (lowering the compression and strengthening the bottom end.)

In my experience, the kit will be reliable on a stock bottom end at very low boost, at street "leisure" levels, on a good tune. Anything track related, higher boost, or "heavy footed" regularly should at a minimum change out the pistons, which we will offer as an "upgrade pack". That said, I would absolutely recommend the upgrade pack in general. The OE pistons have a wide range of quality control, and have been known to fail even stock, and for no apparent reason. If its in the budget- do the upgrade pack. If not, plan on doing it BEFORE you have problems. We are going to try and make the package as attractive as possible to channel more people in that direction. In fact, we may just package it together and make you purposely "not do it". For moderate power levels the rods will be OK. For bigger packages, rods should be added, as well as crank balancing, true keyways, studs, etc.

 

[Dan Cragin]

Dan,
I will see if Cory can chime in here. No I have never seen a car they supercharged. He had the kit at VOI a few years back, I saw pictures of the installation and dyno sheets. At that time he was doing them in house but wanted to supply a kit.
He was not going to get an emissions certification, so I never pursued it. In California the Smog is such an issue now, thats why we like to do the bigger builds for motorsports.

I agree, if you could offer a engine upgrade kit to go with your SC system, that would be perfect. I too have seen pistons fail on 08-10 models without a blower. Thats why all the ACRX models had forged pistons.