SUSPENSION FAILURE PHOTOS - Check your cars!

[Irid]

I was out doing some brake bias tuning the other night, I brought the car back and put it up in the air to do some other tweaking and noticed the following failure in the left front suspension area. It's wet because of the brake clean I hit it with just before I took the photos.

Car is a 99 ACR with ~35k miles. No track work but has seen a dozen or so autocrosses over the past few years. It runs around with RA1 tires on the street and -1.5front and -1.3 rear camber, and is driven quite hard.

Thinking about it more, I heard what I bet was it letting go when I was making one of the harder stops from speed.

It's a weird failure mode IMHO. I checked the other side and it hasn't zippered, but it looks like there's a crack in the rearmost weld.

Has anyone else seen this? I would imagine tracked cars would hit this and I'd be surprised if no one else has seen it.

In any case, check your cars. Had this let go entirely I would have found a wall, ditch, or oncoming traffic one day.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Stock springs?

 

[Irid]

Yep dead stock springs. Car has never hit anything, been off-roaded, etc.

 

[BigBadViper]

Where would you take something like that to get fixed?

 

[RAYSIR]

Bring it over to my house and I'll weld it up.

 

[1TONY1]

For those that don't recognize it right off. That is just above the front a-arm attaching bolts. The aluminum a-arm is pictured on both sides of the spring.

Good catch Irid,

 

[dave6666]

Where would you take something like that to get fixed?

Somewhere that has a welder. Not a difficult fix.

Ray is concentrating on it now. Maybe it will be done when you get back out to it.

I'm curious though, how you differentiate as far as wear and tear on the car goes, between "track work" and "driven quite hard autocross." You car doesn't care one way or another.

Good post BTW. I know mine is good there, as I get up close when periodically cleaning my suspension.

 

[Irid]

I'm obviously not just going to "fix" the problem, I'm going to have the area reinforced on both sides. What spooks me out is that this happened on a street car, on street tires. I'm worlds away from how hard I drive cars on the track, and would have never imagined this type of failure under what I consider typical street use for an enthusiast. I certainly don't drive this any harder than the Porsches and such I've driven on both the street and track over the years. It's not like I'm running this car on slicks at enduro's every weekend (like some of my old cars), where I would watch for fatigue issues; and this seems like an outright strength failure more than a fatigue issue.

I'm really interested in hearing what the tuners have to say - if they have seen this type of thing on the cars they service. Especially the track cars. Since I see traces of it happening on the other side I'm not going to write it off as a bad weld "one off" failure.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Appreciate your concern and great photos...will certainly pay attention to this area on ours.

I do have one small point to make, however:

On 12/24/03, Irid posted : "I just purchased a '99 ACR with right around 15k miles. "

SOOOOOOO, how do you you REALLY KNOW exactly just went on with this car during the first 15, 000 miles of its life...NOT meant to start an argument...just pointing out a rather obvious variable to the equation.

 

[Irid]

Hey Steve,

Yeah when I bought the car I checked it over for the typical track signs (yellowed script on calipers, etc.) and saw none. The car was immaculate, never been in rain, etc. Sure there's a chance that something untoward was done by the previous owner, but the person I bought it from knew them so there's at least a bit of a chain of trust, and I've certainly been around enough tracked cars to spot that type of thing (used to test for a race team, etc.). I've also never seen any issue in this area of the car (or any other for that matter - I went through every weld before I had the 999 recall done just to check everything) and I do check it regularly when I have it in the air. I did the front shocks just a little while ago (rebuilt because they were starting to leak) and cleaned/checked everything here, and all was fine. As far as I can tell this was simply a flat-out failure; one spot weld went and then it just zippered the rest. Quite odd.

 

[99 R/T 10]

Not to stir anything, but is it possible that the car had hit a curb? Not enough for it to show any real damage, but enough for it to pop the spot welds? How is the alignment?

 

[dave6666]

How is the alignment?

I think it has a little too much positive camber now.

 

[ruckdr]

Thanks for the heads up; I just checked mine out, and all are solid.

Later,

 

[Steve-Indy]

Thanks, Irid !! As I am NOT a welder, it will be interesting to hear what a real welder thinks of your situation...especially as to his/her opinion of the "defect".

And, believe me, when I start my Spring fluid changes and general inspections of our Vipers, I will focus on this area more than usual.

 

[Irid]

It's never hit a curb (with me at least ;-)). The alignment was dead nuts. I heard/felt the weld zipper when I was under braking. I literally checked this area a few months ago when I was swapping the shocks in and out, I looked at all the welds out of habit (had a swaybar mount tear out once on a Porsche I was racing).

Trying to find a shop to take care of it now. The responses I've heard in private from some tuners indicate that they have never seen this type of failure. I sent the photo off to a friend who used to be on team viper to see if he's seen it. Will post photos once it's fixed.

And actually, the tweak didn't move the alignment much at all. If I gave the car to someone and asked them to drive it around town, they wouldn't notice this at the moment.

 

[dave6666]

Thanks, Irid !! As I am NOT a welder, it will be interesting to hear what a real welder thinks of your situation...especially as to his/her opinion of the "defect".

I am a welder, but anybody can point out this observation:

-> The weld filler metal itself broke. The substrate and *********** of the filler to the substrate is intact.

Assuming that the filler wire used was of the correct alloy, then issues like contamination, prep, weld speed and current become topics.

Multiple passes can add strength to the weld by depositing more filler, and even increasing *********** into the substrate. Those look like single pass welds.

On the car at hand, I would ensure that those welds are prepped with a thin Metabo wheel or similar to remove the broken weldment, and that all of the paint, grease and other gunk is thoroughly removed with solvent.

Weld prep is everything in this case.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Thanks, Dave. I would say that I have been under "a ton" of Vipers on lifts...and have seen what I would describe many "factory-welded" areas that seem to function well but look a little ratty to my untrained eye.

 

[thebigsnake]

An ACR is anything but a street car.
After owning a plethora of sports cars in almost 40 years, it's the reason why I've had mine for five years now with no urges to replace it

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Irid]

Minor update: I've now had contacts which note that they've seen this exact failure before on track cars. So it's not just some freak of nature. I guess that's good for me, bad for everyone else...

 

[Bugeater]

I too had the welds break around the suspension mounting points. Granted, my car is a racecar but you will definately see the stresses on the autox with R compounds. (You are stressing the front suspension laterally when you are tossing her around thru the cones)

I checked all 4 corners and found the worst offender on the driver side, then some on the passenger side. Both up front. Makes sense that it was driver side since I mainly run at VIR and its mainly right-hand turns (clockwise).

Just have em rewelded, and check em every so often.

Also check your power steering rack mounts. They will crack as well under duress. If they break completely it makes for some new, fun handling characteristics!

 

[Steve-Indy]

Just curious...do you have the sport shims in or out...noticing that -1.5 camber for ALL driving seems a little on the high side to me though, admittedly, I do know some who do that and they seem to go through bearings more frequently (due to the abnormal loading of one race over the other even while driving in a straight line??).

I have also recent heard of a track car having same or similar problem though the details are yet to come.

 

[Irid]

I have the sport shims in. My tire wear is actually quite good - I wear the tires pretty evenly with the driving I do. I don't run much toe so that helps as well, and the camber in the back is -1.3, not 1.5. I would say that my alignment is "entertaining" though; it would make the car more challenging to drive for students, etc.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Thanks for the clarification !!

 

[Irid]

Re: SUSPENSION FAILURE PHOTOS - Check your cars! (Fix photo)

The fix. Note the "end caps" which have been added to the end of the bracket. These add a ton of weld area which you would have to shear in order to get this to fail again - stock the force somewhat point loads the top rear of the mount and that zippers the welds.

I spoke with some friends who used to be in the program and they said it looks like a fatigue failure (which is now only seen with some age/miles into the fleet) or a (less likely) fixturing failure on the line (weld is slightly off).

This is the underside of the bracket.

Before:

 

[dave6666]

Damn good repair!

 

[Camfab]

Thanks, Dave. I would say that I have been under "a ton" of Vipers on lifts...and have seen what I would describe many "factory-welded" areas that seem to function well but look a little ratty to my untrained eye.

Your untrained eye is actually spot on. I've heard many so called weekend warriors tell me how their weld, though it may not look good is super strong. As far as I'm concerned, if it looks bad....it is bad. The welding on the Vipers that I've owned are for the most part horrible. Very bad execution, and workmanship for any car let alone a Viper. This is where for the most part GM shines, in particular the Corvette. Frame weldments on later model Corvettes C-5 and up are great examples of what a correct weld should look like.

 

[dave6666]

...if it looks bad....it is bad...

Quote of the month, for anyone interested in, thinking of, currently in training of, or just wondering why THEIR WELD BROKE!

Excellent dude!

 

[davem]

Your untrained eye is actually spot on. I've heard many so called weekend warriors tell me how their weld, though it may not look good is super strong. As far as I'm concerned, if it looks bad....it is bad. The welding on the Vipers that I've owned are for the most part horrible. Very bad execution, and workmanship for any car let alone a Viper. This is where for the most part GM shines, in particular the Corvette. Frame weldments on later model Corvettes C-5 and up are great examples of what a correct weld should look like.

I couldn't agree more, the Welds on the '90's Vipers completely ****. It's kind of embarrasing. Not to mention they didn't bother to clean up the weld splatter before they paint the frames. I re-hit a lot of the welds on my car.

later,
Dave.

 

[GTS Dean]

Hey Steve,

Yeah when I bought the car I checked it over for the typical track signs (yellowed script on calipers, etc.) and saw none.

Mine are kind of swiss chocolate colored. They change hue every time I come home from the track.