The current and future state of Viper sales and technology

[MoparMap]

I think the main thing that needs to be done with the Viper is exposure like mentioned before. If it showed up on TV and in movies more and people saw them, they would wonder what they are and look into them. That's part of the tricky bit with owning one. Most people who see ANY Viper tend to think 1. That's a brand new car right? and 2. That must cost $100k right?

On one hand, that's almost an appeal to me because I like having a car that very few other people have and is unique on the road, not because I want to stand out or be a pretentious jackwipe, but because I just like having something different. A Vette would give me pretty comparable performance, but I don't see them as unique. I could probably count the number of times I've seen a Viper on the road (that wasn't mine or a club member's since I've joined) in the past 20 years they've been making them on one hand. Part of that is probably due largely to where I live (midwest, not a huge city), but even in places like KC I never really see them on the road aside from club events. When people ask what it is and you tell them a Dodge Viper, sometimes they still have no idea what that means. It just doesn't have the "brand power" of something like a Ferrari or Lambo, but it also lacks the notoriety of something like a Vette that's still impressive, but just more common.

On the tech front though I'd still like to see them keep it basic for one fun reason. When the Viper originally came out, it was one of the fastest things out there despite the fact that it was largely built from leftover parts, but it still whooped up on cars many times the price with technology helping them. A gen 4 ACR is still one of the fastest vehicles around some of the most well known tracks in the world, even without any tech helping it. It's faster than a GT-R, an MP4-12C, and a 458 at Laguna Seca and the Nurburgring. I would rather see them try to beat the more advanced cars in the world with sheer mechanical knowledge than to resort to computers and driver aids, almost for bragging rights if nothing else. Don't use a computer for a bandaid to fix a car's problem, just fix the problem. If the car understeers, don't put 4WD on it to help pull it around corners, fix the understeer with different suspension characteristics. I think of it like someone bringing a prepped Miata to a track day and beating a 458. It's embarrassing to the owner of the Ferrari to get beaten by something so "basic" (admittedly skill has a lot to do with this as well). Computers don't typically make cars faster, they just help you to be less slow. Most race drivers turn off traction control for a reason.

 

[05Commemorative]

I think your quote here is what disqualifies you. Tesla on the track? a person could take any car to the track (agree), but that does not make it a car that has any design aspects for it. Since you have not experienced a track day, it is fair to assume you don't understand the loads put on a car in that environment. You would have to simply experience it. Once you have, imagine your most aggressive driving on the street you have ever done and then you basically have done the equivalent to a cool down lap. Totally serious.

btw, being a G2 owner, or an owner of any car does not and will not give you insight to what others are talking about on the track unless you experience it.

to the point that was raised above, when someone really gets into the track day stuff, they upgrade tires (slicks), brakes (racing pads that are very noisy), stiffer suspensions, cooling, 6pt harness, etc. The list can go on and on and each one makes the car less enjoyable on the street and better on the track. I think all folks were trying to explain is the G5 is a great platform off the showroom to get started and it can take it stock. 99% of cars can't take it stock and I think that might be the point that is missing.

For myself, never driven the car on a drag strip, so will not talk as if I have and then dis on someone that has. I do know though that a car designed for it is much different than one not.

as an example, I do which you would take your Tesla. You would need new brakes after a full day, likely new tires, be shocked how quickly your batter time goes away and will have them get too hot during the process. You will not last a full 30min session let alone 4-6 30min sessions for the day. That is kind of the point.

At the end of the day, is the Viper a "race car"?, no of course not, but lets not confuse that with what a track day car is.

What I don't "accept" is why you (and others) continue with this line portraying the G5 as primarily a "track car."
It is not intended as such.
An owner CAN take his G5 to a track and have a great time in the car.
This is something anyone can do with any car.
I COULD take my Tesla to a track, but I would never call it a "track car."

 

[sunsalem]

Rather than respond point by point (again) and get into a battle of semantics (again), let me just say if anyone wants to call street licensed G5 Vipers right off the showroom floor "Track Day Cars" or "Track Cars," feel free....whatever it takes.
If this is how someone wants to define the G5, fine....however, one thing is certain: not nearly enough potential buyers have been impressed by such credentials.

And what I do KNOW is this thread went way off-topic....which was: The current and future state of Viper sales and technology

 

[SADVIPER]

2000hp, 15ft wide, 24" tall, v-20 motor and 12 sp transmission. 0-60 in 1 sec, 1/4 in 8sec. forget about turns as no need for that as that can't be valued, we need to just go fast in a straight line.

Make it look like the gen2, gen 3, gen 4 and yet totally completely unique and different so that every prior gen owner will like it and not be offended that it is better than their current car.

Most importantly, please include a factory "poser" edition where the HP is clearly marked (maybe digital so I can bump it up to a # I think is appropriate) so I and everyone around me can think that my package is bigger.

Additionally, make sure all the magazines talk about the poser edition very positively so even when I don't have the car, I can pull out the magazine and tell everyone how great it is, again reminding them how large my package is. I simply don't want to be anywhere where I can't be posing.

Lastly, and this is very important, please sell it for $50k so I can afford it, but also continue to make it exclusive so I and those I am trying to impress can feel like it is more expensive.

Oh, one last thing, make sure the aftermarket is huge for it because I need all of the above attributes to be true for the life of the car. I simply can't imagine or accept another car could be better in some aspect of performance as it will quite frankly challenge my man hood.

almost forgot, add voice technology so I can directly post to the forums about what is wrong with SRT/Dodge, other posters that don't think like me and in general give me the ability to publicly again state how big my package is.

LOL so true man well done.
People around here smh!

 

[Free2go]

When I decided to buy a Viper I was like everyone else here: totally in love with the timeless design, wide stance, low to the ground, fat tires, element of danger etc. You don't see them around often. I upgraded a few things and made it my own. Every where I drive it people love it. I've studied the Gen V's quite a bit and know good and well they are a definite upgrade. If I had the disposable income, I would have snatched up a black T/A early in the game. Ralph did a good job blending the old with the new in the Gen. V. If there winds up being a Gen VI, it's going to have to make a quantum leap into the future and leave us and all our beliefs behind. It's gonna have to appeal to and inspire kids and young adults that quite frankly are becoming accustomed to fakken space ships. It's gonna have to have the latest and best of everything, look outrageous, and cost a fortune to ever survive. It can't continue to be the "Redneck Lamborghini".

 

[sunsalem]

We have discussed many possible changes for the Viper going forward.
For example, DI, Forced Induction, CCB, DCT, etc.

Would anyone be interested in a poll (I assume this forum has the ability) concerning the Future of the Viper?
What I mean is we (individually, of course) can play Viper Designer-For-A-Day: choosing the future path we would like the Snake to take.

If so, list as many suggestions as you like in this thread and I will create a separate poll thread we can all vote in.

 

[sunsalem]

I discovered this comment on the net from a guy who was at Homecoming and managed to have a conversation with new Dodge CEO Tim Kuniskis:

Paolo and I were lucky enough to be standing next to new CEO Tim in the museum during their announcement (hellcat sales pitch). He was kind enough to give us his uninterrupted attention for close to 10 mins while everyone was making a dash for the buffet lines. I didn't beat around the bush, I told him that I have a gen 4, was excited about the new car but refused to buy it! It's beautiful, the interior is spectacular, but come on, 640hp is a joke! Not only that, I told him what a pain in the a$$ modding the gen 4 was that no way in hell will I buy a gen 5 unless we can tune the computer. He went on to explain the situation with the EPA and all the hurdles they faced. I responded, why is it that before the c7 was released they already had mods and tuning available. He said, that he can see them releasing horsepower options with dedicated tuning options but not an open controller. He then asked us "what will take for us to go from 50 cars to a 100 a month, because at 50 this car will not make it ". His exact words folks!! I said just look at all the positive press and excitement you created with the hellcat because it's the most powerful muscle car PERIOD! That's what the Viper needs to be! No one cares that it's fastest around a track, we want to be king of the hill Period! We thanked him for his time and wished him well. Very nice guy, but I didn't get the feeling he is as passionate about the viper as Ralph was, who's absence was blatantly oblivious, especially during the announcement of the the viper team!! We also got to talk to a few engineers and all were nice expect for one. Great weekend, it was fun meeting a few folks from here but disappointing as well! No news about 2015 other than the plant is going live on sept 2nd.

After reading this, it appear to me there will be greater emphasis on future sales and, possibly, less on technology.

 

[MoparMap]

People should understand that GM isn't releasing fully open computers to the mass public ***** nilly. Even their stuff is locked from the factory, people are just more keen to crack them because of the volume of those computers on the street. Add to this that the GM stuff is likely very closely related between some cars (like the Camaro and Vette), so that only makes the volume even greater. The Viper is pretty much the only car in the Dodge family to use one particular engine, so it's computer is likely less related to the company's other models. They farmed out the gen 4 ECU as I understand, so it's really not even an in-house part like other engine controllers, so that makes it even more unique. If you want to sit around a test station all day and probe ECU pins with a signal generator and oscilloscope, you can figure out how any computer works and find some kind of workaround, but that's an astounding amount of work for such little reward.

As a comparison, GM sold more Vettes in one year than Dodge sold Vipers in the history of the car. Say 10% of buyers want to mod their cars to the point of requiring a computer tune, that's an average of 2000 people a year for Vette owners (likely even more if the computer is shared with the Camaro). Say even 25% of Viper owners want to mod the same way, that's 500 people in a good year. That's not worth the monumental time investment to crack the computer. The gen 1 computer can be tuned now thanks to diligent people doing just this, but look at how long that took. It's just a numbers game.

I'm almost certain GM cannot legally release a computer that is unlocked like that from the factory due to EPA regulations. It is ridiculuous some of the crap you have to go through for certification (I design industrial trucks and have seen this first hand). If they don't like the way you route a hose they'll make you change it.

 

[Mike_EE]

People should understand that GM isn't releasing fully open computers to the mass public ***** nilly. Even their stuff is locked from the factory, people are just more keen to crack them because of the volume of those computers on the street. Add to this that the GM stuff is likely very closely related between some cars (like the Camaro and Vette), so that only makes the volume even greater. The Viper is pretty much the only car in the Dodge family to use one particular engine, so it's computer is likely less related to the company's other models. They farmed out the gen 4 ECU as I understand, so it's really not even an in-house part like other engine controllers, so that makes it even more unique. If you want to sit around a test station all day and probe ECU pins with a signal generator and oscilloscope, you can figure out how any computer works and find some kind of workaround, but that's an astounding amount of work for such little reward.

As a comparison, GM sold more Vettes in one year than Dodge sold Vipers in the history of the car. Say 10% of buyers want to mod their cars to the point of requiring a computer tune, that's an average of 2000 people a year for Vette owners (likely even more if the computer is shared with the Camaro). Say even 25% of Viper owners want to mod the same way, that's 500 people in a good year. That's not worth the monumental time investment to crack the computer. The gen 1 computer can be tuned now thanks to diligent people doing just this, but look at how long that took. It's just a numbers game.

I'm almost certain GM cannot legally release a computer that is unlocked like that from the factory due to EPA regulations. It is ridiculuous some of the crap you have to go through for certification (I design industrial trucks and have seen this first hand). If they don't like the way you route a hose they'll make you change it.

Your analysis is spot-on. Most gas-engine Chryslers use one of two engine controller architectures (GPEC II or NGC IV/IV-A), and the Viper controller isn't one of them. It's unique to the Viper V-10, and uses standard Chrysler diagnostic/bootloader security, which means that it isn't "unlocked". It's a high-cost, low-volume program (the car and the PCM), and warranty cost management is a major concern. OEM engineers read forums, and posts about hiding (what could arguably be considered) "abuse" so as to maintain a warranty does nothing to alleviate concerns about warranty cost increases. Why invest a couple of million dollars in calibration, EBOM/part-number management, increased warranty costs and (potential) EPA certification for something that they may sell 200-500 units?

I admit that, as an OEM supplier, I'm a little closer to this than most people but, even if I wasn't, I would consider the endless droning about "unlocked PCMs" to be a little tedious. Does the car really need higher engine output, or this all "spec sheet racing"?

 

[pathoguy]

GM sold more Vettes in one year than Dodge sold Vipers in the history of the car

That's why I am in a viper and not a corvette. I would rather viper production skipped years as before.

Does the car really need higher engine output, or this all "spec sheet racing"

Probably not.........unless it's tied into sales. If the public wants the viper to have more hp than the mustang, C7Z06 and even the Hellcat.....then give the public what it wants....or close the shop. The public spends billions on purchases not needed and not understood.

 

[KB Viper]

I discovered this comment on the net from a guy who was at Homecoming and managed to have a conversation with new Dodge CEO Tim Kuniskis:

Paolo and I were lucky enough to be standing next to new CEO Tim in the museum during their announcement (hellcat sales pitch). He was kind enough to give us his uninterrupted attention for close to 10 mins while everyone was making a dash for the buffet lines. I didn't beat around the bush, I told him that I have a gen 4, was excited about the new car but refused to buy it! It's beautiful, the interior is spectacular, but come on, 640hp is a joke! Not only that, I told him what a pain in the a$$ modding the gen 4 was that no way in hell will I buy a gen 5 unless we can tune the computer. He went on to explain the situation with the EPA and all the hurdles they faced. I responded, why is it that before the c7 was released they already had mods and tuning available. He said, that he can see them releasing horsepower options with dedicated tuning options but not an open controller. He then asked us "what will take for us to go from 50 cars to a 100 a month, because at 50 this car will not make it ". His exact words folks!! I said just look at all the positive press and excitement you created with the hellcat because it's the most powerful muscle car PERIOD! That's what the Viper needs to be! No one cares that it's fastest around a track, we want to be king of the hill Period! We thanked him for his time and wished him well. Very nice guy, but I didn't get the feeling he is as passionate about the viper as Ralph was, who's absence was blatantly oblivious, especially during the announcement of the the viper team!! We also got to talk to a few engineers and all were nice expect for one. Great weekend, it was fun meeting a few folks from here but disappointing as well! No news about 2015 other than the plant is going live on sept 2nd.

After reading this, it appear to me there will be greater emphasis on future sales and, possibly, less on technology.

thanks for sharing. it honestly drives me crazy that these execs see that we are smart enough to be in a situation to afford a viper but dumb enough to believe the EPA has anything to do with the inability to tune the gen V in the aftermarket. look up cammed challenger/charger or any of Chrysler product and watch all the videos on you tube that show all other Chrysler products are being tuned. Does EPA not effect the other cars or other manufactors? this is specific to viper and i believe Chrysler singed a deal with the devil during the downturn and can't release codes or make it the codes easier to crack because I don't believe that Chrysler owns the viper PCM and that's where the issue starts.

 

[MoparMap]

The Hemi is shared among multiple cars though and tuning for it has only recently hit the scene. I saw this firsthand because I did a modern Hemi swap into my 67 Dart. You can use a stock computer, but you have to have just the right one with the right transmission to be able to do it. Not to mention hemi tunes didn't really give much more power originally.

 

[sunsalem]

Your analysis is spot-on. Most gas-engine Chryslers use one of two engine controller architectures (GPEC II or NGC IV/IV-A), and the Viper controller isn't one of them. It's unique to the Viper V-10, and uses standard Chrysler diagnostic/bootloader security, which means that it isn't "unlocked". It's a high-cost, low-volume program (the car and the PCM), and warranty cost management is a major concern. OEM engineers read forums, and posts about hiding (what could arguably be considered) "abuse" so as to maintain a warranty does nothing to alleviate concerns about warranty cost increases. Why invest a couple of million dollars in calibration, EBOM/part-number management, increased warranty costs and (potential) EPA certification for something that they may sell 200-500 units?

You make a good case.

I'm fine with 640 hp, but some folks are not.
If 640 isn't enough, there are other cars with other engines.

 

[Stealth]

The 640 hp (or 645 hp due to re-measurement!) and 600hp of the Gen V feels fast so far at 320 miles. I also appreciate the power delivery of the N/A motor. My BMW 550i M-Sport has a 4.4L twin-turbo, dohc, 4-valve motor with Dinan tuning (502hp/580trq), and while it is great for a luxury coupe, the power delivery of the Non-FI motor in the Viper is completely different. I like the linear power delivery of the Viper motor in HPDE events since it is very timely and predictable vs. a cloud or hit of boost. It is also a relatively simply and time-tested design. FI may be the future for performance motors, but for now I am definitely enjoying the NA Gen V motor.

 

[sunsalem]

Another possibility for increasing Viper sales may be the use of the 6.4L Hemi (aluminum block) in a base model Viper.
500 HP priced in the 70s?
However, dunno if it would fit and don't know if it would be a real cost savings....

 

[PDCjonny]

Please kill off the Viper forever before diluting the name with a "base" model lower performance version.
Go out with a little dignity.

 

[sunsalem]

Please kill off the Viper forever before diluting the name with a "base" model lower performance version.
Go out with a little dignity.

They could call it the "Python," or "Rattler" or "Scorpion" or some such thing.

Corvette comes in several varieties: Stingray, Z51, Z06, ZR1(?)

 

[Free2go]

You make a good case.

I'm fine with 640 hp, but some folks are not.
If 640 isn't enough, there are other cars with other engines.

640 horsepower would be just fine....at the wheels, not the crank.

 

[Texas1]

Please kill off the Viper forever before diluting the name with a "base" model lower performance version.
Go out with a little dignity.

Agreed!!!!!

 

[sunsalem]

640 horsepower would be just fine....at the wheels, not the crank.

Using a 15% parasitic loss as an example, power rating at the crank would be 640 + 96 = 736 (according to my math skills).

My question is how and where can this additional HP be found without FI?

 

[Free2go]

My question is how and where can this additional HP be found without FI?

Dude, we conquered Germany...Japan...Italy...at the same time. 700hp at the wheels NA shouldn't be a problem.

 

[doctorbob]

Okay, guys get real. You got a 5 HP increase ..... Does that not tell you something? As noted in one of the posts above....50 cars a month are not going to make it for the future of the car..... They sold 46 last month. The plant reopening continues to be delayed. There is not going to be a future.

 

[sunsalem]

Dude, we conquered Germany...Japan...Italy...at the same time. 700hp at the wheels NA shouldn't be a problem.

Can't argue that.
8.4L is an awful lot of displacement.

Ferrari has the 458 Speciale at 597hp & 398 lbs....from an 4.5L NA.
AMG has their 6.2L V8 NA up to 622hp & 468 lbs (SLS AMG Black Series).

There is certainly reason to believe it's possible to extract more power from the V10.

They sold 46 last month.

In July?!?

The plant reopening continues to be delayed. There is not going to be a future.

 

[Nine Ball]

Please kill off the Viper forever before diluting the name with a "base" model lower performance version.
Go out with a little dignity.

This.

Viper owners do not really care that 20,000 others buy the same vehicle as them each year. I'm okay paying more for some level of exclusivity and hand-built performance from Detroit. People that always want to compare the Viper with the mass-produced Corvette, simply don't get it. We do not want a Dodge Corvette.

I didn't buy a ZR1 because I already had two C6's and couldn't justify $120K MSRP on a car that gets mistaken for a $45K base model. And shares the same crappy orange peeled paint and interior as said car. No thanks. I installed superchargers on both of those C6's (one a Z06) and had the same performance, similar appearance, and much less cost.

 

[MoparMap]

Instead of a "base model Viper", they should just make a whole different care like the old Firepower concept or whatever it was. It could share a lot of Viper tech, but maybe keep that a bit hush hush so you don't ruffle too many feathers.

When you think about it, Dodge doesn't really have an "affordable" sports car. The Challenger is close, but is still really almost more borderline sporty family car/muscle car. It's just too big to be a sports car to me. I've never really considered the Vette a muscle car because it just didn't have the same kind of presence as the big bruisers of the 60s. Yes, they could be every bit as fast, but they didn't have that same "brute force" aura to them as a boxy Charger or Chevelle with a huge engine. The Challenger is similar in my mind. It's a capable car, but just doesn't strike me as a sports car like a smaller two door, two seat design would.

Granted Ford is really in a similar boat in my mind. The Mustang is their cure-all for everything from an economy car to a supercharged drag racer, to a spec'd out track car. However, that was the original design intent of the Mustang back in the 60s as I understand it anyway. It was supposed to be anything to anyone, but to me that actually waters down the appeal some. Like Nine Ball mentioned, when the granny car and all out monster look alike it takes something away from the car's presence.

To me none of the big three have the full car progression of muscle car -> sports car -> super car. All three have a muscle car (term loosely used) in the Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger that directly compete against each other, GM has a sports car in the Vette, and Dodge has a super car in the Viper. Ford used to have a super car in the GT, but that boat has already sailed. GM has super car like performance in their uprated Vettes, but to me lacks in wow factor because it shares a design with the more common model. A super car to me is not just better performance, but better and more exclusive looks than your company's other car offerings. If you can glue some wings and splitters on your base model car and make it look like the top of the line model I find that a problem.

 

[sunsalem]

Viper owners do not really care that 20,000 others buy the same vehicle as them each year. I'm okay paying more for some level of exclusivity and hand-built performance from Detroit.

Unfortunately, at the moment, there are not enough owners like you to keep the car afloat.

People that always want to compare the Viper with the mass-produced Corvette, simply don't get it. We do not want a Dodge Corvette.

My point involved SALES and keeping the factory open.
46 cars a month isn't going to cut it.

 

[SnakeBitten]

I would hate to see a base model as well. There should not be a G5 Viper model with less than 640hp imho. I can however see a more rounded higher hp/tech model boasting 750+hp to compete with the sub hyper exotics like the Mclaren 650S/Aventador etc in more than just road course racing.

 

[sunsalem]

There should not be a G5 Viper model with less than 640hp imho.

Most likely it won't happen anyway.
The G5 is probably toast....46 cars sold in July is likely to be the last nail in the coffin.
It's time to start thinking about a G6.

I can however see a more rounded higher hp/tech model boasting 750+hp to compete with the sub hyper exotics like the Mclaren 650S/Aventador etc in more than just road course racing.

There is no cross-shopping between the Viper and foreign exotics to speak of.
This has been shown to be the case for 20 years.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

I would hate to see a base model as well. There should not be a G5 Viper model with less than 640hp imho. I can however see a more rounded higher hp/tech model boasting 750+hp to compete with the sub hyper exotics like the Mclaren 650S/Aventador etc in more than just road course racing.

If people will not spend $115K - $150K on the GenV how exactly would what you suggest EVER sell well enough to waste money engineering??? The GenV is a greatcar that should sell well at the price point it is at, but all the negativityon the forums and bad/lack of press is what hurt it. Even if it would have comeout at 700hp I bet people on the forums would still complain about the price.That is probably why SRT targeted conquest customers that are accustomed topaying the kind of money it takes to build the best Viper ever with all theoptions the Viper community said they wanted and now speak out that it is notworth it...

I hopesales will turn around and if it takes stripping down to bare bones to get theprice "acceptable" to keep the Viper alive and the factory working Isay do it. We love the Viper, we want it to survive, but that cost money andwithout people buying at the price it takes to do it (keeps the value andexclusivity alive), and volume with less options and maybe power is the onlyway I see it happening. It still would not be "a Corvette", it willstill be smaller volumes, and just enough to justify keeping the top dog aroundfor the exclusive people that know its true value.

I thinkTim knows this and if so I hope the plan is a successful one for everyone thatloves the Dodge Viper. I may be way of base with these statements and they are trulymy own take on it aside from what I do for a living.

 

[SnakeBitten]

If people will not spend $115K - $150K on the GenV how exactly would what you suggest EVER sell well enough to waste money engineering??? The GenV is a greatcar that should sell well at the price point it is at, but all the negativityon the forums and bad/lack of press is what hurt it. Even if it would have comeout at 700hp I bet people on the forums would still complain about the price.That is probably why SRT targeted conquest customers that are accustomed topaying the kind of money it takes to build the best Viper ever with all theoptions the Viper community said they wanted and now speak out that it is notworth it...

I hopesales will turn around and if it takes stripping down to bare bones to get theprice "acceptable" to keep the Viper alive and the factory working Isay do it. We love the Viper, we want it to survive, but that cost money andwithout people buying at the price it takes to do it (keeps the value andexclusivity alive), and volume with less options and maybe power is the onlyway I see it happening. It still would not be "a Corvette", it willstill be smaller volumes, and just enough to justify keeping the top dog aroundfor the exclusive people that know its true value.

I thinkTim knows this and if so I hope the plan is a successful one for everyone thatloves the Dodge Viper. I may be way of base with these statements and they are trulymy own take on it aside from what I do for a living.

Mark my response was grounded on that quote from one of the mags about the direction they were considering taking the Viper if my understanding of the quote was correct. They made those statements even though sales are in the toilet. Maybe I did not understand the quote correctly? Ill have to go back and re-read it when I get the chance.

Sunsalem my reference to the Aventador/650s was not about cross shopping but about kicking butt all around. Your point is valid on its merits though and currently precludes such a Viper from happening unless that quote I read/misread was more than hot air.