The current and future state of Viper sales and technology

[sunsalem]

We have had a very lively conversation in a couple of threads about the G5 and the general future direction of the Viper.
Eventually, the discussion got a little too OT and maybe a little too heated.
With that in mind, I thought we might focus that discussion in its very own thread.

As we all know, the Viper's current sales figures are not reassuring to those of us who are hoping the car will be around another 20 years.
Good sales = good future
Sergio Marchionne (CEO of Fiat) has been quoted as saying the Viper has to turn a profit, and I take him at his word.

Why aren't Vipers selling in higher numbers?
What would it take to get the long inventory off dealer lots and into garages?
Is the product too narrow in its approach?
Would different future models and/or technology help?

There are many discussions we can get into around these and related topics.
I hope we can really generate feedback for SRT and help them going forward with our beloved Snake.

 

[stew4706]

My 2 cents is that it is all about price. The Viper is an outstanding car by most accounts but it is not so awesome that a GTS commands $60k over a loaded Stingray. Save the argument about they are different because I have come to find that outside the owners of Vipers no one thinks that. It is an American super car and the draw in many regards is exclusivity. I don't think the product is too narrow in approach as you can get it in more configurations than ever.

 

[sunsalem]

My 2 cents is that it is all about price. The Viper is an outstanding car by most accounts but it is not so awesome that a GTS commands $60k over a loaded Stingray.

I do think price (especially in these economic times) is playing a part.
For example, I found a GTS with a price of $155k (will PM the link to anyone interested).

Save the argument about they are different because I have come to find that outside the owners of Vipers no one thinks that. It is an American super car and the draw in many regards is exclusivity.

Agreed.

I don't think the product is too narrow in approach as you can get it in more configurations than ever.

I guess I was referring to the lack of a Roadster and ACR....something a lot of guys are hoping for.

 

[Free2go]

A little wider, a little lower, a little sexier, a little bolder....with some big ass brakes.

 

[05Commemorative]

2000hp, 15ft wide, 24" tall, v-20 motor and 12 sp transmission. 0-60 in 1 sec, 1/4 in 8sec. forget about turns as no need for that as that can't be valued, we need to just go fast in a straight line.

Make it look like the gen2, gen 3, gen 4 and yet totally completely unique and different so that every prior gen owner will like it and not be offended that it is better than their current car.

Most importantly, please include a factory "poser" edition where the HP is clearly marked (maybe digital so I can bump it up to a # I think is appropriate) so I and everyone around me can think that my package is bigger.

Additionally, make sure all the magazines talk about the poser edition very positively so even when I don't have the car, I can pull out the magazine and tell everyone how great it is, again reminding them how large my package is. I simply don't want to be anywhere where I can't be posing.

Lastly, and this is very important, please sell it for $50k so I can afford it, but also continue to make it exclusive so I and those I am trying to impress can feel like it is more expensive.

Oh, one last thing, make sure the aftermarket is huge for it because I need all of the above attributes to be true for the life of the car. I simply can't imagine or accept another car could be better in some aspect of performance as it will quite frankly challenge my man hood.

almost forgot, add voice technology so I can directly post to the forums about what is wrong with SRT/Dodge, other posters that don't think like me and in general give me the ability to publicly again state how big my package is.

 

[05Commemorative]

ok, my serious answer:

conv: meet the needs of the 9000+ Gen3/4 conv owners (atleast remove the excuse)
8sp auto: 80% of sports cars come with them now ( it is what is expected by the majority)

problem solved.

 

[TrackAire]

2000hp, 15ft wide, 24" tall, v-20 motor and 12 sp transmission. 0-60 in 1 sec, 1/4 in 8sec. forget about turns as no need for that as that can't be valued, we need to just go fast in a straight line.

Make it look like the gen2, gen 3, gen 4 and yet totally completely unique and different so that every prior gen owner will like it and not be offended that it is better than their current car.

Most importantly, please include a factory "poser" edition where the HP is clearly marked (maybe digital so I can bump it up to a # I think is appropriate) so I and everyone around me can think that my package is bigger.

Additionally, make sure all the magazines talk about the poser edition very positively so even when I don't have the car, I can pull out the magazine and tell everyone how great it is, again reminding them how large my package is. I simply don't want to be anywhere where I can't be posing.

Lastly, and this is very important, please sell it for $50k so I can afford it, but also continue to make it exclusive so I and those I am trying to impress can feel like it is more expensive.

Oh, one last thing, make sure the aftermarket is huge for it because I need all of the above attributes to be true for the life of the car. I simply can't imagine or accept another car could be better in some aspect of performance as it will quite frankly challenge my man hood.

almost forgot, add voice technology so I can directly post to the forums about what is wrong with SRT/Dodge, other posters that don't think like me and in general give me the ability to publicly again state how big my package is.

That is EXACTLY the car I'm looking for....where do I send my deposit??

Whether I agree or disagree with your opinion, that was one damn funny post...bravo.

 

[Roy]

For the European customer...it's too big, too hot, too thirsty, too basic, too useless in our streets or as daily driver and too expensive due to taxes based on CO2....and apart from the last part, this is exactly why I like it.

Gas is way more expensive over here than in the states, which makes it for the normal man almost impossible to drive, not only due to gasprice, but also due to emission taxes, these taxes make the purchase price about double the US price and that makes insurance really expensive. The European magazines call the Viper a dinosaur, old fashioned, lumpy and brutal, to me that sounds appealing and I love the reactions on the car, but the market for such cars is very, very small over here. people tend to buy Porsches, Audi's or Nissans instead, they use less fuell, cost the same money, are more usable, people know the EU cars better and they can choose from a wide range of dealers and specced cars. On the Viper, allthough there are "lots" of options now, it does feel like take it as is for us EU customers...

Apart from all that, not too many people over here think the Viper is worth more money than the Vette, this one is more usable and the critics say it has better/ more EU spec handling and it's not as wild as the Viper..but than again, that's why I don't want the Vette.

On a Dutch board people tend to say that in the early days the Viper was worth the extra money because it was more faster...but now the old Z06 is about equally as fast as the current Viper...
To be honest I also went and have a look at a Z06, but it didn't steal my heart like the Viper does, mostly those floppy seats made that happen, as for the new Vette and the GEN 5 Viper exactly the same seems to be the case, the Stingray still hasn't got any nice seats and the looks of the car are way less aggressive than those of the Viper, I would still choose Viper, but many people choose the Vette due to usabillity and less screaming presence I guess...

 

[sunsalem]

2000hp, 15ft wide, 24" tall, v-20 motor and 12 sp transmission. 0-60 in 1 sec, 1/4 in 8sec. forget about turns as no need for that as that can't be valued, we need to just go fast in a straight line.

Make it look like the gen2, gen 3, gen 4 and yet totally completely unique and different so that every prior gen owner will like it and not be offended that it is better than their current car.

Most importantly, please include a factory "poser" edition where the HP is clearly marked (maybe digital so I can bump it up to a # I think is appropriate) so I and everyone around me can think that my package is bigger.

Additionally, make sure all the magazines talk about the poser edition very positively so even when I don't have the car, I can pull out the magazine and tell everyone how great it is, again reminding them how large my package is. I simply don't want to be anywhere where I can't be posing.

Lastly, and this is very important, please sell it for $50k so I can afford it, but also continue to make it exclusive so I and those I am trying to impress can feel like it is more expensive.

Oh, one last thing, make sure the aftermarket is huge for it because I need all of the above attributes to be true for the life of the car. I simply can't imagine or accept another car could be better in some aspect of performance as it will quite frankly challenge my man hood.

almost forgot, add voice technology so I can directly post to the forums about what is wrong with SRT/Dodge, other posters that don't think like me and in general give me the ability to publicly again state how big my package is.

PERFECT....I'm there.

ok, my serious answer:

conv: meet the needs of the 9000+ Gen3/4 conv owners (atleast remove the excuse)
8sp auto: 80% of sports cars come with them now ( it is what is expected by the majority)

problem solved.

Can't disagree.

Gas is way more expensive over here than in the states, which makes it for the normal man almost impossible to drive, not only due to gasprice, but also due to emission taxes, these taxes make the purchase price about double the US price and that makes insurance really expensive.

WOW.....didn't know.

 

[labtec]

2000hp, 15ft wide, 24" tall, v-20 motor and 12 sp transmission. 0-60 in 1 sec, 1/4 in 8sec......

Now that is funny stuff and exactly what I was thinking. From a manufacturing standpoint you can't please everyone, consider for a moment even if Dodge forgot something and was reminded by the forum crowd it could cost millions of dollars to research, develop and test. I would love to buy a new Gen 5 but for now I will "suffer" driving my 04 Gen 3 until I can afford one. I also have to suffer through all the guys and girls asking all those questions and taking pictures of the car every time I take it out btw regarding the comment about the GTS price compared to Stingray, it seems GM has the same dilemma with it's own Camaro....lets see now, hmmm... well optioned Camaro = $38000 and Z28 $75000 It costs quite a bit more to put the absolute best of everything on the Z28....

 

[pathoguy]

Gas is way more expensive over here than in the states

I am from London, although been in US for many many years. Petrol (gasoline) prices are typically in the $8 per gallon range. That is probably why in Europe car manufacturers use a lot of boosted small engine displacement (2L or less is common) for achieving hp. Look at the new Alfa Romeo 4C that produces about 240 hp from 106 c.i. (1.7 L). They also focus on weight reduction. The 4C is about 2000 lbs lighter than the Hellcat. Fuel economy is listed as 24/34. Sure it's not a supercar and certainly not like a viper (any generation), just an example of how innovation and technology are applied over there to handle their gas pricing challenge.

Drove the viper again to work today......awesome even at the speed limit. The viper cannot compete if it does not mature and keep pace with the technologies that are being applied to other fine automobiles.

As far as sales for G5.

They ditched the establish viper customer base by producing too many GTSs at $120k+.
They entered unknown territory by trying to ****** a different market (Porsche etc)

I say...take your time....get it right...come back stronger than ever........no small tame incremental changes

 

[ViperDC]

ACR. Convertible. 50 hp power bump (doesnt need more HP than the Hellcat just more than the Z06). Build more SRTs rather than GTS to bring the price down.

Problem solved, this isn't rocket science.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Well for me if they insist in taking it up-market and challenging Porsche etc then equip the "G6" in a way that that demographic will take it seriously. That will mean exploring and R&D'ing real technological solutions like DI, DCT/LC combo, possibly DOHC configs or if not maybe a smaller displacement/higher revving version of this V10 with boost, aluminum chassis, CCB's and a real attention to remove the Vipers engineered in crudeness as compared with a Porsche. Oh and sound marketing. It will have to be a very polished product all around to be taken seriously and compete with the likes of Porsche in anything more than just performance.

I don't think anything will be done or can be done to make the non-TA G5 appeal to the Porsche or other demographic after the sucker punch it got from the bad marketing and press. Recertifying the engine is costly, the Viper program does not have deep pockets like the other brands cars do. Would Fiat even loose more cash for the G5 for simpler things like CCB's, lightweight titanium exhaust, Trofeos, lightweight battery etc? A hp bump would make some positive noise for the G5 I think but will it translate into sales is anybody's guess.

I dont see DCT, FI or CCB's happening on a G5 from the factory. I can see it happening in a future gen if its still around. As was mentioned convertable [Prefix is offering this now] and an ACR would definitely sell to those in the market for a Viper like that. Bottomline is make what people want and they will buy. Make what you want and only those that buy into your philosophy will see its merit. Its a rather small crowd for the latter. More HP cant hurt the current model either.

 

[BigDawg]

The naysayers have been right along. Like a parent though, you are all too blinded by your child's perceived greatness that you fail to see reality. It's clear YOU are happy with it. Your opinion doesn't matter. Without a significant number of cross shoppers the Viper will fail. You all love to mock the wide body, crazy HP numbers, etc., but that's simply because you don't get it. You underestimate the significance of those features. Your mentality is parallel to the mentality at SRT in regards to the Viper. The notion that the Viper is "good enough".

You are flat out ******** if you think the Viper should sell for less than $100k in 2014. The Viper is EASILY a $100k car. It's a $110-130k car. The problem is and always has been lack of wow factor for the common man. Most Ferrari and Porsche and Mercedes and Lamborghini etc. etc. etc. are bench racers. Period. The number may be skewed in favor of real racers due to their prevalence on the internet, but for every guy who tracks it there are 20 who don't. SRT seems to get it with the hellcat. 707HP is marketing Gold. 699 would have a fraction of the effect.

Yes the Gen V is a beautiful car, yes is performs, but on paper it's boring. Maybe not to you, but to the cross shopper it is. They need something absurd for it to stand out. Looking like a GT3 car for the street would do it, 750 NATURALLY ASPIRATED HP would do it. Then you all laugh and make snide remarks about "if it was 700HP then you would want 800!" To that I say, yeah no **** Sherlock. That is the Viper mentality. Nothing is more unViperlike than saying 640HP is enough. What the hell has happened here? The idea that everyone should kiss SRT's ass for being so generous as to build any Viper is ludicrous.

Keep arguing, keep calling anyone who speaks the truth a troll, keep saying we're beating a dead horse, but the truth is out. The results speak. Now you all are blaming alleged trolls for people not wanting to buy the Gen V. Talk about grasping at straws.

FTR I know the Gen V is a great car. That's not the point. The point is it not having enough wow to draw in enough new buyers to keep it going.

 

[DrumrBoy]

Prefaced by the fact that I haven't even seen a Gen 5 yet and don't know my a$$ from a hole in the ground on the subject, but my impression is that the design elements and price point were supposed to bring in foreign exotic buyers to consider one instead of or in addition to a Ferrari, Lambo, GT2 etc. For whatever reason its not attracting many new converts to the franchise yet the pricepoint has a few of the Viper-loyal unable to stretch for it. Result is fewer cars sold. If you drop the pricepoint, more Viper-loyal will buy, but the costs don't change so the economic proposition for Sergio isn't materially improved. I thought they had a good shot at attracting the Ferrari bench racers and fancy restaurant park-in-front types, but for some reason it hasn't worked yet.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Prefaced by the fact that I haven't even seen a Gen 5 yet and don't know my a$$ from a hole in the ground on the subject, but my impression is that the design elements and price point were supposed to bring in foreign exotic buyers to consider one instead of or in addition to a Ferrari, Lambo, GT2 etc. For whatever reason its not attracting many new converts to the franchise yet the pricepoint has a few of the Viper-loyal unable to stretch for it. Result is fewer cars sold. If you drop the pricepoint, more Viper-loyal will buy, but the costs don't change so the economic proposition for Sergio isn't materially improved. I thought they had a good shot at attracting the Ferrari bench racers and fancy restaurant park-in-front types, but for some reason it hasn't worked yet.

The market has dropped the price to as low as 72k to 90k brand new and they are still not flying off the lots. That may indicate that G5's image will not recover in its lifetime imho hence my suggestions that Dodge start fresh with generation 6 and equip the Viper in a way that it can actually be taken serious by the high-end crowd they are after.

 

[supersnake]

2000hp, 15ft wide, 24" tall, Sounds like an OLD Girlfriend

 

[danfromohio]

My 2 cents is that it is all about price. The Viper is an outstanding car by most accounts but it is not so awesome that a GTS commands $60k over a loaded Stingray. Save the argument about they are different because I have come to find that outside the owners of Vipers no one thinks that. It is an American super car and the draw in many regards is exclusivity. I don't think the product is too narrow in approach as you can get it in more configurations than ever.

I agree with this 100%. We are all on this forum because we love the Viper. However, to move a better number of cars, you can't just have a small number of loyalists with deep pockets as your customer base. And as sorry as I am to say it, if you are going to start shopping for a $130k car without any pre-conceptions about wanting an American car or whatever, but just looking at whatever is out there for similar money, there is a hell of a lot of stuff at the Vipers price point or below it that offer similar or sometimes better performance, options, deluxe interior materials, etc. I think right up until this last generation of Corvette, I didn't see the two in the same league. Ever. The Vette was an also-ran to me. I never thought I'd say it, but Chevy threw down the gauntlet with the newest Vette and so far Dodge has not picked it up.

 

[sunsalem]

I am surprised if SRT really thought they could reel in many Porsche buyers with the G5.

The Porsche conjures up a different image than the Viper.
With some exceptions (like some of the guys on this forum), the Porsche crowd has a different POV regarding their car.
For many, it is a status symbol.
A sign of success in their business career (such as the Medical & Law professions) and as a way to impress the ladies or Country Clubbers.

Perhaps the expensive and painful lesson GM learned with the Cadillac XLR may have been relevant for SRT to study.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_XLR
The idea was to poach some of the traditional Mercedes SL500 customers.
Even with similar performance and $15K less as bait, it didn't really work.
Mercedes people simply wouldn't jump to an American built roadster.
When I sold mine earlier this year, I felt I had practically gave it away.

 

[johniew398]

I know that a lot of owners or would be owners say SRT priced a lot of buyers out of the market. I never would have opted for a GTS with full options because of the price. What is the best bang for the buck is the TA, not because I bought one but if you look at the car, it has performance plus a high quality interior.

I was considering a Mercedes SLS AMG if I hadn't bought a new Viper, but then you are talking $200k.

 

[sunsalem]

The market has dropped the price to as low as 72k to 90k brand new and they are still not flying off the lots. That may indicate that G5's image will not recover in its lifetime imho hence my suggestions that Dodge start fresh with generation 6 and equip the Viper in a way that it can actually be taken serious by the high-end crowd they are after.

Funny you should mention that....according to this link, the 2015 Viper will be a "refresh."
http://www.torquenews.com/106/srt-brand-dissolved-refreshed-dodge-viper-coming-2015

2000hp, 15ft wide, 24" tall, Sounds like an OLD Girlfriend

I didn't know you were a former beau of my wife.

I think right up until this last generation of Corvette, I didn't see the two in the same league. Ever. The Vette was an also-ran to me. I never thought I'd say it, but Chevy threw down the gauntlet with the newest Vette.

Agreed, the C7 is very nice.

 

[KB Viper]

i own a 14 and would say the only thing i don't like is the locked PCM. the fact that i'm even considering a 10-12k stand alone computer to mod the car drives me crazy. So having the code to the PCM easily cracked wouldn't cost them any more money, I would argue would save them money (no rolling updates that secure the PCM cant be broken) and I would imagine with the V10 8.4 liter platform the modders would love this car for S/C, TT, and even NA builds. i bet with a hack-able PCM it would yield 10-15 more sales a year. that doesn't sound like much but that's a 3.75% sales increase for doing nothing.

 

[emericr]

Why aren't Vipers selling in higher numbers? Competition has increased for the $$ spent. Viper used to be the cheapest bang for buck and was equal to or beating super cars. Today, you have Audi R8s, AMG GT, Jag F Type, C7Z06, GTR, Camaro Z28 to name the obvious. They are all more comfortable and easier to drive and the performance gap has narrowed substantially or is even better on the streets. Let's also not discount that you can buy a slightly used P911TT, SLS, Ford GT, McLaren for pretty close to GTS MSRP.
What would it take to get the long inventory off dealer lots and into garages? That is a great question and I think it will mostly be price driven. Another way would be for SRT to organize drive events in cities on the track and get the buzz going. Jag, Porsche, Aston, Lambo are all doing it and there's nothing like getting behind the wheels of the car and experiencing the rush. Unfortunately, the Viper does not shine unless you are a die hard stick shift enthusiast and you are on the track.
Is the product too narrow in its approach? Absolutely in the sense that if you want to increase your market share, it has to be a lot more livable. IMHO it is not even close to being fun as a DD or even occasional street driving. As previously stated, keep the SRT basic and make it even better for the track and improve the GTS by giving it DCT/MCT, 4WD, even better interior and lot more hp to alleviate the extra weight. Make the GTS a 10.5 second flat 1/4 mile and highway champion. Sell the SRT at the Dodge dealers if you must but not the GTS. The GTS belongs in a Ferrari/Maserati dealer where a potential buyer can come in and test drive both an F12 and the improved GTS. The sales pitch will be easy "you can have the prancing horse for $450,000 or for a third of it, get the snake, same performance, just not as much spent on the interior and the badge". By selling it thru the Ferrari dealers, you will also get more international sales because there will be a dealer supporting the buyer and they know how to treat someone who spends 150K or more on a car.
Would different future models and/or technology help? You need to open up the ECU for the crowd that wants to modify the car (whether it is for track or build up a mile monster). You obviously need a convertible and an ACR.

 

[viperbilliam]

I desperately want a G5. I'd rather a vert but I'll take the coupe for the right price. I like the new C7s (which are in my price range) but would rather be in a Viper. I'm willing to pay $20k more for one but the difference is far greater than that. Where are these 70-90k G5s? I don't think it's right that they are discounted this low but that's what I can afford. I'll stretch as far as I can go with my budget because as much as I have seen the good and bad (and the bad always get more attention but I know it's distorted) the Viper is the best sports car for me. I'm working the savings hard and it will take time before I can grab those keys. In the meantime, I pray the Viper can stay alive. It's pretty discomforting to make an investment like that if the car along with the mfr/dealer support dies. My dream is the Stryker Green GTS with the TA pkg. It's a $140K car but if I could get in that for 100K, I'd do it. Why the GTS instead of an SRT TA? Because of one silly thing but important to me - the additional sound insulation. I like road noise as minimal as possible.

My point is, Dodge has to bring down the price point but gamble if they do on the volume needed to sustain that. Some of you are asking for more stuff like more horsepower (nice but not needed on the street - fick the bragging rights), auto, and DCT which can make the price go the wrong way. Meh on more tech stuff but the auto would help volume; I personally don't want auto but welcome the additional ownership it would bring to strengthen the Viper brand. This would have to be an option that pays for itself without raising the basic Viper cost.

 

[Tiago]

its been said before, for the money they are MSRP'ing the market has many other cars available that offer more than the Viper. DCT, CCB, dry sump, just to name a few. If you're going to ask 110-150k for the car, it better have those same toys the other cars it is competing in the market with, have.

if the price was in the 70-80k range, then the current technology would be acceptable imo. But at 75k more, I want a lot more....

think about it, that is almost 2x the MSRP of gen 4 coupe, and is 90% the same car.

 

[sunsalem]

if the price was in the 70-80k range, then the current technology would be acceptable imo. But at 75k more, I want a lot more....

think about it, that is almost 2x the MSRP of gen 4 coupe, and is 90% the same car.

Agreed.
In spite of the new excellent interior, it's hard to justify the current MSRP.
The highest MSRP I have seen so far is $155k on a GTS....that's a lot of dough for a Viper.
SRT made a mistake trying to price the car at those levels.

 

[sunsalem]

After looking at the above comments, I'll list the things (in no particular order) posters are asking for in the Viper:

1. Roadster
2. ACR
3. DCT
4. More HP
5. Lower price
6. CCB
7. Forced Induction
8. Direct Injection and/or DOHC
9. Unlocked ECU
10. Dodge sponsored Drive Events
11. 4WD

 

[Twister]

Its good the way it is. The viper hasn't sold great in 15 years. Its a limited production toy. I think there might still be a few never titled 2010s for sale lol...

The car is amazing though. No doubt. Ill probally end up getting one at some point.

 

[pathoguy]

think about it, that is almost 2x the MSRP of gen 4 coupe, and is 90% the same car.

I bought my 2013 srt base for around $88k (including the Gen 3 trade). The Gen 3 stickered for $84k back in 2006.

I know the Gen 4 is comparable in hp to the Gen 5 and maybe performs similarly, but unless the gen 4 differs significantly from the Gen 3 in functional areas other than performance, the Gen 5 is not 90% the same car, not close.... traction control, 7 inch LCD touch screen, improved comfort, gearing, llighter, new chassis with increased rigidity, new forged pistons...........................

 

[PDCjonny]

Let's also not discount that you can buy a slightly used P911TT, SLS, Ford GT, McLaren for pretty close to GTS MSRP..

Please find me a FGT for close to the Gen V MSRP that's not been wrecked, I'll take as many as you can find.