The Horsepower Wars are OVER!

[Paul Hawker]

For those of you who post that the Viper needs more Horsepower to remain competitive. I think that 500 Hp is about all a sports car can handle. On my SRT I changed the rear gears to 3:55, and the tires could no longer handle the torque. Even with the same 500 hp caution was needed to keep the car straight to avoid wheel spin. Coming off corners required careful throttle attention to avoid spinning out.
Then I installed a Paxton, and the difficulty using the power became even more evident. Now even in a straight line, serious restraint is necessary to keep the tires from spinning below 60 mph.

I now believe that the future of the high performance sports car will be the manufacturer that has the best traction management software/system.

I believe that if Dodge is to increase the HP any further, it will nessisitate the inclusion of some sort of traction control/stability control.

This concerns be, as the fun factor with electronic systems, will be seriously diminished.

 

[quickysrt]

maybe like a launch control as in the f430

or a better diff

 

[ledfoot]

Paul, You may be right.....as long we stop with the Viper ahead of Corvette..........

 

[Kai SRT10]

I have to say that I agree that simply adding more horsepower to the existing car is not the way to go. With the stock engine, the SRT is traction limited, both at the drag strip and at the track. Simply adding more power without making serious changes to the suspension and other parts of the car to deal with that power will leave the Viper somewhat unbalanced.
Reading MotorTrend's article on the new Z06, I was impressed with the level of difference that is distinguishing the Z06 from the stock Vette. The engineers at Chevy aren't just taking the stock car and dropping in a different engine. They are changing out just about every single component. It really will be a completely different car. That's what it takes to do it right.

If Dodge wants to crank up the HP, it will take more than just a supercharger or tweaked engine. They will need to go back and re-evaluate every aspect of the Viper, from suspension, to brakes, to aerodynamics, to tires, etc. etc. This is how it's always been. I know from experience that the old Dodge 426 hemi Challenger shared very few parts with the stock 318 Challenger. Just about every mechanical piece on the 426 was different, and needed to be different, so the car would perform as it should. Just adding more horsepower without making sure that the car can use the power and get the power to the ground is dumb.

I also hope that Dodge comes back with a world beating response to the current competition. However, I hope that they take the time to do it right.

 

[madman]

I think that horses are not the problem. The problem is the absence of the ASC (anti slip control). From the certain level of HP and weight it is a pure law of physics:

You need X amount of torque to overcome the adhesive resistance expressed by coefficient Y if the pressure on the wheel is determined by weight W and aerodynamic force Z.

Since we control the X by pressing the gas pedal from certain torque level this is becoming so inaccurate that the slip is unavoidable.

I DO NOT think that ASC is meant for sissies (unlike some ******** forum members).

 

[Vic]

Not all traction control has the fun factor "turned off". The new Mustang has certain defined limits of when it kicks in, and those limits are higher than you might expect. This gives the driver the option and authority to use his right foot to adjust what the car is doing, before the computer steps in and rescues the situation if need be. It can also be turned off completely. Well, this isn't my personal experience, just what I've read.

 

[FikseGTS]

this is an interesting point.... is 500HP the point of diminishing returns with sports cars on street tires?

What about the Ford GT? Is it driveable with it's claimed 550HP, which turns out to be closer to 600+HP?? I think the limit is at 600HP.... anything higher would require some type of traction control system with all wheel drive.... like the Porsche cars.....

Are viper owners willing to accept more horsepower and torque with the addition of complex traction and handling control systems like the top end Mercedes vehicles have?

 

[Kai SRT10]

maybe like a launch control as in the f430

or a better diff

I'm not sure why, but the US version of the F430 will not have launch control.

I agree that a better diff may be a good thing. Under most circumstances, the stock diff is terrific, but I've finally reached the point where I can drive the car fast enough on a road course where inside wheel spin and "looseness" on tight corners is becoming an issue.

My car goes in next week for the new Quaife torque biasing diff. It will be interesting to see how much seat of the pants difference (if any) I see from this ($3000) modification.

 

[Franko]

I wish i had as much fun as you guys are spinning the wheels. All i get is wheel hop. I bought all this HP and can't use it without spending thousands on aftermarket suspension etc. and thats not even a sure thing.

I had so much more fun with my Vette that only had 400 rwhp, but atleast i can spin the tires smoothly and have fun.

I absolutely love everything about the viper, this is just the one thing that annoys me. I can handle the squeaks and rattles but not being able to have fun with power is getting me frustrated.

I guess i'll wait to see if this situation ever gets resolved.

Frank

 

[Kai SRT10]

I wish i had as much fun as you guys are spinning the wheels. All i get is wheel hop. I bought all this HP and can't use it without spending thousands on aftermarket suspension etc. and thats not even a sure thing.

I had so much more fun with my Vette that only had 400 rwhp, but atleast i can spin the tires smoothly and have fun.

I absolutely love everything about the viper, this is just the one thing that annoys me. I can handle the squeaks and rattles but not being able to have fun with power is getting me frustrated.

I guess i'll wait to see if this situation ever gets resolved.

Frank

I never said you couldn't have fun with a stock Viper.

It simply all depends on how much "fun" you want to have. A well driven stock Viper can and will anhiliate a stock Vette. My stock Viper was tons of fun to drive. However, the kind of "fun" I'm thinking about now (the kind of fun that requires upgraded suspension and differentials and tires) is bringing my Viper up to the level of fully race prepped SCCA T1 spec cars. Off the showroom floor, your Viper can easily beat up on just about any other car there is provided that your opponent's car is also in showroom stock condition. Problem is that at the track, most cars you will be up against are not stock. So, if you want to be able to waste anything with a license plate (my goal) you've got to be prepared to do a bit of modding.

 

[vipersrt10]

< Coming off corners required careful throttle attention to avoid spinning out.
Then I installed a Paxton, and the difficulty using the power became even more evident. Now even in a straight line, serious restraint is necessary to keep the tires from spinning below 60 mph.>


-and this is a problem???

 

[Early93Viper]

I think the Viper would lose some of its heritage if it had traction control or something of the kind. It was made to be a bare bones racer for the street. I can see why you would want traction control, etc..........but just don't think its right to put it on a Viper. I don't think Carol Shelby or Bob Lutz would approve either.

(Please No flames just my opinion)

 

[TacDoc]

Agreed, HP is near max usable. Time for an aluminum frame and CF body panels. Lighten the new GTS up and it will be more responsive and better handling.

 

[Kai SRT10]

Agreed, HP is near max usable. Time for an aluminum frame and CF body panels. Lighten the new GTS up and it will be more responsive and better handling.

Truly, the most impressive thing about the new Z06 is not its power output but its weight. It is a LOT harder to engineer in less weight than it is ito engineer in more power. If it really comes in at 3150 pounds, that's a pretty sweet piece of work by Chevy's engineers (assuming that their lightweight components don't crack, like those on a certain other American supercar.)

The Gen III coupe is needed, and it would be easy to add another 50 to 100 hp to the base engine, and not sacrifice drivability. Long term, however, I think that the next Viper needs to be more than just a Gen III with more power. It needs to be a Gen IV, redesigned from the ground up for lighter weight. If Dodge can get the weight down to around 3250, that would impress me more than just adding an extra 100 hp.

An interesting piece of information from the Motor Trend article mentioned the possibility of carbon ceramic brakes for the Z06 some time in the future. They said that they thought that the price might be dropping near to $4000 for the carbon ceramics, instead of the $11,000 they are today. I assume that these are the Brembos they are talking about, as Brembo has been saying for a while now that they are going to be able to radically reduce the costs of their carbon ceramic rotors through a new manufacturing process.

At $4000, I'd be tempted to go that way myself, just for the weight savings.

 

[Snakester]

I've always figured that the Viper would eventually need some sort of traction control to support the increased power that's needed to keep it competitive.
But I figure that it should take well over 650HP for it to be a real problem.

The "Carbon" Viper at the SEMA show is likely a good example of how a more powerful ACR version of the Viper needs to be built to handle the extra power in the short term (read 2006 Viper).

It had the lighter CF body panels and 625HP N/A, but just as importantly it had an adjustable suspension like the Gen II GTS ACR models did.

Even adding in something like the Moton suspension and a factory Paxton blower with some tuning should be able to be done to create a controllable super-Viper that is drivable while keeping the price under $100K.
I'm sure that some work could be done with balancing the power delivery so that the extra power would come on in a more linear fashion than aftermarket solutions.

I'd also say that offhand the combination of adding a supercharger AND 3.55 gears will compound traction problems, especially on stock tires in the winter.
No surprises there.

This is a tuning issue, and NOT a good justification for the Viper to keep from moving ahead in power.
It's the Halo car for Dodge, and it needs to be extreme.
And it is the SRT engineer's job to make the Viper controllible with the extra power intact.

 

[Fast Freddy]

traction control is for girls and people who do not know how to drive. i permanently disabled the traction control, etc on my Z06 thanx to lap traxx. the gen 2 viper can handle 1000 rwhp and the C5 Z06 is good to about 750 rwhp. the way the viper is built it is much better suited to controlling large amounts of torque than the C5 Z06. now that the new C6 Z06 is coming out with a totaly reengineered design i am guessing that platform is good for at least 850 rwhp. but my gut tells me the srt-10 can handle more horse and torque with better composure still, so.............

 

[madman]

...and I am a 'girlie man'... or call me *****. I want ASC for wet and cold weather.

 

[Yellow32]

... be the manufacturer that has the best traction management software/system.

I believe that if Dodge is to increase the HP any further, it will nessisitate the inclusion of some sort of traction control/stability control.

This concerns be, as the fun factor with electronic systems, will be seriously diminished.

Or, go with a partial 4wd system like the Lamborghini Diablo VT and Murcielago, this system requires no software and will transfer up to 30% of the power to the fronts...I for one would enjoy this kind of system, it is the only way to fully and safely enjoy 600HP+ (rain,shine,cold,track, etc)

J

 

[TacDoc]

FAST FREDDY. I am not sure the "knowing how to drive" point is all together accurate. Using that position indicates none of the pros in F1, etc know how to drive. The AE in the Vette allows a driver to have a bit more confidence when pushing the limits. It may also even help a "knowledgeable driver" when they get out of sorts. Thye weight issue is HUGE for the Viper. A lighter car not only will accelerate quicker for a given HP, it also turns more nimbly and brakes better due to less momentum. If they could drop the Viper to 2800# then even the Gen II engine would dominate. The new coupe at 3400+ lbs is going to be very portly when navigating a road course.

 

[GARY J]

traction control is for girls and people who do not know how to drive.

Just how many 1000rwhp vipers have you driven to arrive at this conclusion? With 800rwhp and less it may not be an issue, but when you start to push into the 4-digit range it comes in handy. I have it, and so does the world record holder. Guess he doesn't know how to drive either huh?

 

[NOMERCY]

traction control is for girls and people who do not know how to drive.

Just how many 1000rwhp vipers have you driven to arrive at this conclusion? With 800rwhp and less it may not be an issue, but when you start to push into the 4-digit range it comes in handy. I have it, and so does the world record holder. Guess he doesn't know how to drive either huh?

Exactly!!

 

[SnakeBitten]

... be the manufacturer that has the best traction management software/system.

I believe that if Dodge is to increase the HP any further, it will nessisitate the inclusion of some sort of traction control/stability control.

This concerns be, as the fun factor with electronic systems, will be seriously diminished.

Or, go with a partial 4wd system like the Lamborghini Diablo VT and Murcielago, this system requires no software and will transfer up to 30% of the power to the fronts...I for one would enjoy this kind of system, it is the only way to fully and safely enjoy 600HP+ (rain,shine,cold,track, etc)

J

Are you willing to accept a 3600+lb Viper? AWD will add at least 200lbs or more to the cars already hefty weight...Id prefer something electronic...Less weight..

 

[Yellow32]

Yes,

I would prefer to have the extra power diverted to the front tires even at the cost of extra weight (200# is arguable, but, more weight is a reality). There really is nothing like it, when the rears start to "walk" the fronts take up the slack and it's just an amazing feeling.

I owned a Diablo VT for 5 years -- yes, it was possible to "fool" the system and still spin the car but you really have to try, and I did once, on purpose just to see if it could be done.

Anyway, I believe software controlled traction control systems rely upon giving you less performance to "sort things out"..at least at speed, not talking about at launch where a software controlled launch (such as available in the F430) can be very impressive and save your clutch at the same time. Of course, this "less performance" can result being the "appropriate performance".

I should let you know I am no fan of paddle shifters and computers displacing the driving experience...prefer the manual transmission and traction control.

That's my $.02

J