The Inevitable!

[NVMYVPR]

Bigger is no longer better, per se. There is a replacement for displacement it is called forced induction. We all know this quite well and the writing is on the wall. The only true questions are when and with what will our beloved V-10 be replaced. Maybe SRT can jump in here and cast some light here but what is the general concensus? My guess is within 5 years, the Viper will move to a supercharged and turbo'd V8, provided enough units are sold to support the line and keep it intact. What are your thoughts?

 

[SADVIPER]

No thanks.

 

[72hemi]

Highly doubt it. The Viper's V10 is signature to the car and won't be replaced with a V8.

 

[BigDawg]

Please go away. The Viper will never have it's V10 replaced for a V8. It can't. It's not a Viper otherwise. SRT may make another sports car to fill the gap but the V10 isn't going away.

The same thing goes for Lamborghini and their top of the line cars. V12 or bust.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Don't think the inevitable is of any concern, as the V10 is the signature, and can't see any reason if they do decide to replace in the future, why we can't just be a smaller displacement V10?!


Just my humble opinion.

 

[ViperSmith]

I'd rather pay the gas guzzler tax

 

[Allan]

Don't think the inevitable is of any concern, as the V10 is the signature, and can't see any reason if they do decide to replace in the future, why we can't just be a smaller displacement V10?!


Just my humble opinion.

This is more probable than a V8 with whatever. They may have to implement cylinder de-activation to meet fuel economy standards or something like that, but without the V10, it would be a Worm instead of a Viper.

 

[ringram]

Viper sales are so small I doubt they hardly dent Chryslers overall economy rating. And IIRC its overall efficiency which they need to achieve.
So with the rest of the fleet getting better numbers each year it means the viper can grow to 9L in Gen6 form

If this model is as good as they say it is, then it will do me fine as is. I wont care what comes next.

 

[mnc2886]

Viper sales are so small I doubt they hardly dent Chryslers overall economy rating. And IIRC its overall efficiency which they need to achieve.
So with the rest of the fleet getting better numbers each year it means the viper can grow to 9L in Gen6 form

If this model is as good as they say it is, then it will do me fine as is. I wont care what comes next.

The EPA will continue to apply pressure and adjust rules to phase out anything that isn't forced induction. Now, that is an indirect effect only because you can only achieve the emissions levels required by using forced induction to have a leaner air/fuel ratio.

 

[kdaviper]

The EPA will continue to apply pressure and adjust rules to phase out anything that isn't forced induction. Now, that is an indirect effect only because you can only achieve the emissions levels required by using forced induction to have a leaner air/fuel ratio.

Chrysler produces hundreds of thousands of vehicles per year. The Viper accounts for a very small percentage of those, so it has a negligable impact on CAFE standards at best. BTW, forced induction adds complexity to the engine and additional considerations when tracking the car, like heat soak.

 

[SnakeBitten]

The EPA will continue to apply pressure and adjust rules to phase out anything that isn't forced induction. Now, that is an indirect effect only because you can only achieve the emissions levels required by using forced induction to have a leaner air/fuel ratio.

Cant they do that to a V10 then? Add boost, lower the compression and have a leaner air/fuel and meet the emission levels? I'm not versed on how the emissions systems work but from your post it sounds like it could work on the V10 in order to meet the tightening regulations. Unless those upcoming regulations are so stringent that the 8.4 ltr monster couldn't hope to meet them not even with boost etc. Id hate to see any other type of engine powering a Viper and I'm not an owner...

 

[bcmarly]

I had an opportunity to meet and talk to Dick Winkles, head of engine development for Viper a couple of months ago and he said that they still hadn't met CARB standards. He said he felt that Chrysler was being held to a higher standard than other manufacturers producing V10s and V12s; i.e.: lamborghini and Ferrari. He also said that the rules for CARB emissions were written for an 8 cylinder engine not a 10. When Dick brought this to their attention, they acted surprised and basically said er ah never mind, it was written for 10 cylinder engines too. These are the people who hold the cards. God help us all!
Change is coming, you can count on it. As a side note it was announced that Corvette will no longer be producing the LS9, the super charged 6.2 liter V8 producing 638 hp/ 600 tq. The new base C7 will have cylinder deactivation, direct injection, a 5.5 liter engine (which is what they use in the ALMs series) will produce 460 -470 hp and weigh some 150 lbs lighter and produce better mpg than the out going base C6. If nothing else the EPA, which by the way has unfettered power, along with the competition, will force change regardless of anything else.

 

[ViperSmith]

I had an opportunity to meet and talk to Dick Winkles, head of engine development for Viper a couple of months ago and he said that they still hadn't met CARB standards. He said he felt that Chrysler was being held to a higher standard than other manufacturers producing V10s and V12s; i.e.: lamborghini and Ferrari. He also said that the rules for CARB emissions were written for an 8 cylinder engine not a 10. When Dick brought this to their attention, they acted surprised and basically said er ah never mind, it was written for 10 cylinder engines too. These are the people who hold the cards. God help us all!
Change is coming, you can count on it. As a side note it was announced that Corvette will no longer be producing the LS9, the super charged 6.2 liter V8 producing 638 hp/ 600 tq. The new base C7 will have engine deactivation, direct injection, a 5.5 liter engine (which is what they use in the ALMs series) will produce 460 -470 hp and weigh some 150 lbs lighter and produce better mpg than the out going base C6. If nothing else the EPA, which by the way has unfettered power, along with the competition, will force change regardless of anything else.

I don't mind the technology aspect of it, there are a lot of great turbo vehicles out there.

I think the days of big displacement V10's and V12's are numbered, severely.

Enjoy it while you can

 

[vpower01]

"Variable displacement" so they are going to have to put more effort/money in deactivating cylinders
If they want big displacement, this is the only way to go...its not easy but they could be close.

Then put turbos on.

 

[kdaviper]

If you Want MDS, you're gonna have to have an automatic transmission. Else there are no fuel efficiency gains (at least as far as the EPA testing is concerned).

 

[vpower01]

Maybe maybe not if i shut of every other cylinder on my motor with a switch I would have better gas mileage.
People could run 1/2 off for long trips and run all 10 around town and maybe it would meet fuel economy standards.

I just noticed Allan post above already brought this up.

 

[Paul Hawker]

These ARE the good old days...

 

[chorps]

Keep the big V-10. Add forced induction on top of it. Done.

 

[VYPR BYT 94]

vipers with air conditioning... inevitable
vipers with abs... inevitable
etc, etc, blah, blah... inevitable

It's natural progression.
When the time comes, viper will evolve with the proper choices of the day and still be respectable-viper.

 

[351carlo]

Change is coming, you can count on it. As a side note it was announced that Corvette will no longer be producing the LS9, the super charged 6.2 liter V8 producing 638 hp/ 600 tq. The new base C7 will have cylinder deactivation, direct injection, a 5.5 liter engine (which is what they use in the ALMs series) will produce 460 -470 hp and weigh some 150 lbs lighter and produce better mpg than the out going base C6. If nothing else the EPA, which by the way has unfettered power, along with the competition, will force change regardless of anything else.

Where are you getting your information? The new C7 engine is an "LT1" displacing 6.2L, rated at 450HP. It'll have both direct injection and cylinder deactivation

The new LT1 is a replacement for the LS3 and has nothing to do with the LS9. They may choose to redesign the ZR1 engine for the C7 version, but that's not official and years down the road before a launch.

 

[NVMYVPR]

I hadn't considered a smaller displacement V10 but I could see that with forced induction. I am in agreement with the V10 being a signature but evolution is coming. Gas guzzler taxes were just the volley across the bow, when that doesn't discourage enough it will be mandated. I am not a fan of Vettes, nothing wrong with them just not for me, but there is a method to their madness going to a 5.5L motor. As we have all read the actual competition Viper is only running an 8.0L motor and that is just because it was grandfathered in. I think we can all agree racing rules around the world are changing fast. I can very easily imagine a simple rule change knocking our current car out of competition because of its powerplant. As Bill mentioned; how about a smaller displacement V10 that is supercharged and turbo'd? Could be tasty and as a side benefit might drive the prices of our old "gas hogs" up to where they should properly be. I would imagine a 5.5L V10 running a supercharger for low down HP/TQ blows off and shuts down at a given RPM range and the big ole Turbo takes over for the upper RPM band. It is already being done on some small 4-bangers and the results are pretty impressive in not just power but in fuel efficiency. Adapt or die. Here is the catch. If this is a viable route to go being the first in the marketplace with it means a lot. Imitation is the sincerist form of flattery. What say your SRT?

 

[Bobpantax]

SRT does not talk about the future. So asking them is pointless. I think that the V10 is good for at least another three years with tweaks as necessary to meet any new requirements. Developing a new engine is very expensive and SRT has a small budget. I doubt that the rumored 6.2 liter twin screw supercharged V8 engine will enter production before the 2014 or 2015 model year;and, when it is available, I don't think it will be for the Viper.

Bigger is no longer better, per se. There is a replacement for displacement it is called forced induction. We all know this quite well and the writing is on the wall. The only true questions are when and with what will our beloved V-10 be replaced. Maybe SRT can jump in here and cast some light here but what is the general concensus? My guess is within 5 years, the Viper will move to a supercharged and turbo'd V8, provided enough units are sold to support the line and keep it intact. What are your thoughts?

 

[DMan]

These ARE the good old days...

Couldn't agree more my brother.

 

[JAY]

Totally agree !!!

Keep the big V-10. Add forced induction on top of it. Done.

 

[NVMYVPR]

This is why I brought up the subject. Car manufacturing is a process. SRT might not talk about to us but you can believe behind closed doors it is being discussed and the facts are there for all to see. The 8.4 might make it in a production car for another three years, doubt it, but I don't see the competition Viper keeping its 8.0. Two more years tops. All the R&D out there right now is in smaller, high compression, force inducted powerplants. I never truly expected SRT to even read the thread let alone speak on it but I thought was an interesting topic and one that will play into all of our futures as long as we are Viper enthusiasts. Hey I am just happy to be able to have a Viper in my stable. Nice to meet you last weekend too Bob. Your Viper is pure rolling art.

 

[I Bin Therbefor]

NO WAY.

First, please note that Ferrari still produces a V-12 in addition to a V-8. Note also that Lambo, AM, Audi, and others all produce engines with more than 8 cylinders. Ralph talks about a SRT car IN ADDITION to the Viper V-10, not as a replacement to it. That car may well have a V-8.

The current Viper V-10 still has lots of technology that can be applied, starting with DI. I know DI is not a bolt on install but with sufficient $s, the engineering talent is there to apply DI to both increase the power and add better economy. Or use it all for economy. Given the $s, there's a bit of friction reduction to be done yet. As for the car, there's nothing wrong with a performance hyb ala Ferrari's new offering or Porsche's, still with the V-10.

 

[bcmarly]

Whoops my bad, as they say. It is going to be a 6.2 L and it will produce at least 450 hp, so the speculation is that it will produce HP in the vicinity of 450-480. Optimists hope it will produce closer to 500 HP. Their reasoning is when the base C6 came out it produced 400 HP while the outgoing C5 Z06 produced 405 HP. The outgoing C6 Z06 LS7 produces 505 HP. Do you catch my drift? The future of the LS9 and the production of the LT1 are 2 separate issues.

Where are you getting your information? The new C7 engine is an "LT1" displacing 6.2L, rated at 450HP. It'll have both direct injection and cylinder deactivation

The new LT1 is a replacement for the LS3 and has nothing to do with the LS9. They may choose to redesign the ZR1 engine for the C7 version, but that's not official and years down the road before a launch.

 

[Bobpantax]

Hi. I did not realize it was you. It was a very fulfilling event.

This is why I brought up the subject. Car manufacturing is a process. SRT might not talk about to us but you can believe behind closed doors it is being discussed and the facts are there for all to see. The 8.4 might make it in a production car for another three years, doubt it, but I don't see the competition Viper keeping its 8.0. Two more years tops. All the R&D out there right now is in smaller, high compression, force inducted powerplants. I never truly expected SRT to even read the thread let alone speak on it but I thought was an interesting topic and one that will play into all of our futures as long as we are Viper enthusiasts. Hey I am just happy to be able to have a Viper in my stable. Nice to meet you last weekend too Bob. Your Viper is pure rolling art.

 

[bcmarly]

One of BMWs marketing strategies was that it would never sell a turbo charged BMW/M car. This was a selling point against the Audi. They claimed that the NA delivery was more linear and gas mileage was superior. BMWs high performance cars now sport twin turbo charged engines producing HP and TQ in numbers far greater than their previous gen M5, which had a NA V10. With direct injection turbo lag has been largely solved and they get better gas mileage. My how times have changed.

 

[emericr]

I agree and MB and Audi are doing it successfully. I had a C63AMG with the revered 6.2 normally aspirated engine. I have a CLS63 with the new 5.5TT on order and based on the feedback of current owners, they were able to keep the sonority of the N/A and the potential for mods is far superior. And it gets 25mpg. With a simple tune, the new engine easily gets to Viper Gen V level.
I really do not see a problem with a smaller displacement V10 with twin turbos but I agree with most that I doubt that SRT would decide to let got the V10.
This change could lead to N/A vipers holding their value a bit more as people will have a choice in the future.

One of BMWs marketing strategies was that it would never sell a turbo charged BMW/M car. This was a selling point against the Audi. They claimed that the NA delivery was more linear and gas mileage was superior. BMWs high performance cars now sport twin turbo charged engines producing HP and TQ in numbers far greater than their previous gen M5, which had a NA V10. With direct injection turbo lag has been largely solved and they get better gas mileage. My how times have changed.