The Sean Roe Supercharger *****...

[RC Viper]

Does anyone plan to use a S/C car for road racing? How will the extra heat effect cars that are running four 30 minute run groups a day? I am impressed with the product (hp numbers, appearance etc.), but 95% of my miles come on the track. Will heat be a problem?

 

[Catwood]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eddie N:

just a little ping is no big deal and i'm sure it will be worked out..
- eddie -

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't kid yourself. Detonation is Evil. Detonation will destroy pistons quickly. Forged or otherwise.

Carl

 

[Sean Roe]

Yes, that's the MSD box we ordered (#8665).

Taking out a few degrees of advance should not be very detrimental to the HP curve under boost. Other Viper SC kits use this same box. That's what it was designed for.

I agree with others, the water injection would not be ideal and it was just mentioned as a potential option, not as the definitive answer. Water injection has been around for a long time, but I have only recently tried it. I don't like the fact that the tank can run dry without you knowing.

SVS Jr. is correct about the Motec in that it is the ideal component for controlling all the fuel and spark tables. Certainly a requirement, in my opinion, for the 800+ RWHP type #'s that they're working to produce. For up to 600 RWHP in our application, the stock PCM is doing a pretty good job and only needs a tweak for regular use, as opposed to a full replacement (full time racing is another story).

Regarding road course use, I did a track day Thursday before last. Our car would need a bigger radiator and oil cooler (both stock now) and a second valve cover breather to run full track days. It got up to about the 3/4 mark after 8 or so laps and had a little too much blowby when the oil got hot.
The supercharger actually runs cooler on the track because air is flowing through it rapidly. The supercharger was running 170-172 degrees while on the track.

The ping these three cars are getting is something we're working to resolve, for these and future kits. This is the kind of thing that can only be found by running the supercharger on several cars and this is the "introductory run". We know the kit works, but we may find some things that need to be tweaked along the way.

Got to get back to work now

Sean

 

[SW]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SVS Turbo:
You could always completely control your entire system using a motec.

But then you would not have any problems left to try to fix.

We only have TIME. How much is yours worth in chasing these types of issues?

jR.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good idea Ron, but I was just wondering what cars you have up and running? Didn't see any of your customer cars at the VOI.. Just wondering.. I'm still waiting on Jim H. car to come out and run.

SW

 

[SVS Turbo]

Jim H's Viper is a much more complex system than what we are talking about here. We have worked with Jim for a long time developing the many stages of our Supercharged systems. We have put more time into the R+D of our systems taking it on our back before we put it out to the consumer. Luckily we have had someone like Jim interested in developing a PURELY managed system. He believes in what we do (manageing our systems more from a engineering fuel management standpoint than a band-aid fix) Yes it takes a little more time and more money in development, BUT when your finished it runs like the computer system that manages your stock Viper. Now your just properly manageing huge HP. All day every day and No water bottles to worry about or Nitrous to fill. Our issues with Jims Viper are design related (not fuel/computer) and we have worked through them as of this weekend. We will meet SW Because Jim wants it to happen. I'm not worried.

We dont have many Vipers on the road because I have not been around for 3 years. Thats why you are hearing more from SVS.
I'm going to do the best job I can with the immense amount of development that SVS has put into building V-10's and carry that over to the Viper owner. We have already made the mistakes so you dont have to go through them.
We have 7 Viper systems we have tuned with Motec. Turbo, Supercharged and N/A.

Anyone can strap a Supercharger on a engine and sell it. Then work through the problems as they go. Who pays? The consumer. How many systems are out there that have a million different band-aid fixes for not properly manageing the fuel? Retard boxes, water injection, funny prom controllers, air to air intercoolers spraying nitrous. Yes they have there place (money restraints) but personally I feel those things cheapen a Viper.

Let me ask you this SW.
Why do you think there are so many PRODUCTION vehicles coming off the lines with Turbo's, Superchargers, etc.

THREE ANSWERS ------ COMPUTERS,COMPUTERS,COMPUTERS

They are designing the fuel around the boost and properly manageing it. The computer can handle the complexity of what happens when your engine goes into boost. Nothing else is going to do it. But everyone has fun talking about thinking they are doing it.
I'm sorry I know everyone wants HP for low $ but is it reality?

Answer these for me Sean or SW. (Straight answers)

1. If I bought Your Supercharger and placed it on a stock Viper engine in a 2000 GTS, how much HP would it make to the wheels?
2. How much will that cost me?
3. Does it come with a fuel system?

Everyone likes the look of Seans Supercharger and so do I.

I would sell it to a customer but not with a retard box. (funny name)

Once I get some answers straight I could give pricing for tuning with a motec.

My interest is in helping if I can.

jR.

 

[SW]

Let me ask you this SW.
Why do you think there are so many PRODUCTION vehicles coming off the lines with Turbo's, Superchargers, etc.

THREE ANSWERS ------ COMPUTERS,COMPUTERS,COMPUTERS

They are designing the fuel around the boost and properly manageing it. The computer can handle the complexity of what happens when your engine goes into boost. Nothing else is going to do it. But everyone has fun talking about thinking they are doing it.
I'm sorry I know everyone wants HP for low $ but is it reality?

Ron,I understand what you are saying, but sometimes going with a simplest system works well. My Supra makes 1015hp at the crank with the factory ecu. Shawn designed his system to be simple, easy to install and work with the factory ecu. It does all three. It's not designed to make the big hp #s, but you have to admit, it performs well.

When you install the same parts on 5 different cars, there are not all going to perform the same. Different climates, fuel, mileages ect. You can't honestly tell me that if you installed 5 Motec systems on 5 different cars, they are all going to have the same settings? Installing a MSD box is not a "band aid", just safety factor that may need to be part of the kit. I don't have one on mine and don't need it.

Can't wait to run Jim's car, just let me know when.

SW

 

[Marc Lublin]

Ron,
Try using your search key. I think you will find all the answers you are looking for about Seans system. You are really looking for answers, right?

 

[SW]

"The Motec compensates for different climates, altitudes, fuel temperature, mileages, etc. Just like the stock computer does, even better."

That's why most newer cars run with a mass air system...

"SW I dont think your Viper is the basic Supercharged system on a stock engine? Is that why you dont you have to have the Box? I think Jim said you had like 25k into your Viper with the supercharger?"

Wrong, I have headers, exhaust,T&Ds, throttle bodies and K&Ns. I don't have the box because I don't need it. I'm sure your system works fine for you, but until you finish your research, I'll be still running at the track with my stock, non-band-aided ecu car.

SW

 

[SVS Turbo]

Mark,

Yes I'm trying to get answers so I can calculate HP with our headers and exhaust because I know what they make. Im not sure what the borlas make. I'm trying to figure this out for a customer. It is not a complicated question is it?

Lets just say it is not a cast piston year. Is this right? 100 Hp to the rear wheels for 7k on a stock engine. And I take it that it does not come with a fuel system. Ok

SW - Viper doesnt run off a mass air system. It runs off a MAP sensor.
(Manifold Absolute Pressure)

If your not running a fuel system then is it the old trick the temp sensor to think the car is running cooler.

Bottom line I want to know what I'm getting into before I put this on a customers Viper. I want it on the board too. Sorry if thats asking to much. Where is the confidence?

jR.

 

[Marc Lublin]

Forgive me, but all I see is arrogance.

 

[SW]

"SW - Viper doesnt run off a mass air system. It runs off a MAP sensor.
(Manifold Absolute Pressure)"

I know that, I was just making a general statement. There is no need to get upset about this. Sean has been very upfront with EVERYONE about his kit. He knows there have been some small issues with a couple of cars, he is taking care of each situation. He is not,"leaving it up to the customer to fix". That's probably the reason he hasn't shipped out all the orders he has. Bottom line, Sean has designed a great product, and it works. Everytime I've modified any car, there have been issues. Let me ask you, of all the cars you have modified, you have had no tuning problems after the customer had it?

SW

 

[HP]

If cost were not part of the equation, I think Motec's approach, unquestionably, is the winner. But this thread is about a low cost alternative for S/C power, and the solution will probably be a low cost solution- that works. I know the R&D cost for the Motec has to be recouped, but this might be better achieved by making the price affordable, so it could truly be an 'alternative'.
If Motec is to be the solution for anything other than
high-end, megadollar projects, it has to be a competative
dollarwise.

 

[SUN RA KAT]

I looked at the price of the Motec 800 for our Vipers and found around $3,750 to be the lowest price for it, which is lot more than I can afford. If they'd lower the price to something affordable, say $1,000, I'd seriously consider buying it.

 

[CitySnake]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marc Lublin:
Ron,
Try using your search key. I think you will find all the answers you are looking for about Sean's system. You are really looking for answers, right?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sean has been extremely forthcoming with info about his SC. Here's (what I believe to be) his last post with the actual dyno numbers (the yield numbers are closer to 150 RWHP): http://vca1.viperclub.org/ubb/Forum14/HTML/013468.html

I'm certainly NOT a spokesman for Roe Racing but, like Mark, I too am a bit perplexed...If you want answers why not ask Sean. Heck, he answers the phone himself and his product info and cost has been perviously posted here (ad nauseam) and on his website.

I'm the install that's holding everything up and the reason is that my motor is "more stock" (no upgraded rockers, headers or throttle bodies) than the beta car. Sean (and Chuck) have been working out the detonation problem one tweak at a time. It's been a daily tweak and check for the last week. When it's finished (this week) I know it will be perfect...since all the final changes are "set and forget".

Sean's the type of tuner (like others) that simply wants to make sure he has the final product locked down before it goes out in bulk. I'm sure that everyone on the order list would prefer to wait a few days more and know that the supplied kit will work perfectly on THEIR car with THEIR mods.

 

[RedGTS]

Jr., the kit as finalized at $7k should produce more in the neighborhood of 125 rwhp on a stock engine. And it does come with new, larger injectors, though that may not qualify as a "fuel system." The larger injectors are supposed to work with the stock PCM and have done so without issue on Sean's car and SW's. It remains to be seen whether the low rpm pinging on the other 3 newly installed units relate to fuel octane, other mods installed at the same time, or what, but rest assured Sean will do whatever is necessary to help the owners resolve the issue.

It's easy to sit back and throw stones when you have no cars on the street with your own product, or at least that anyone around here ever talks about. It's also evident that you haven't followed the development of this kit at all. If you can come up with a more effective/reliable fuel and tuning system to work with the Roe kit and do so at a price point that makes sense (obviously most buyers of a $7k kit aren't going to pay another $7k for a fuel and tuning system), I think that would be great. But it sounds like you better gather some more facts first.

 

[ronviper]

SVS Ron Jr. i totally disagree with you the Motec is a computer and is only as good as the information you put in. I have dealt with many aftermarket ECM, like DFI, Fel Pro etc and i still see people blowing up their motors. How many Viper owners have had experience with the Motec also it is very complicated to use. The average driver is not going to watch his laptop while driving so if a problem occurs he is at the tuners mercy. The horsepower level of Sean Roe's surpercharger doesn't need a 4000 dollar fuel management system. Sean is bringing something to the market the average viper owner can afford.

 

[Nadine UK GTS]

I priced a MOTEC up a couple of years ago in the UK and it would have cost £3.5K ($5250) plus I'd need to fit an alarm, immobilizer and keyless entry system.

The only issue with my SC is the weedy octane over here. The UK measure gas octane on a different scale to the US. Sean has made the install of the whole SC kit very easy, and the kit is of impressive quality and fitment. Hey, anyone to see the intake manifold design alone would take their hat off to Sean.

I am very happy with my Roe SC and Seans customer service.

Thanks Roe Racing.

 

[SVS Turbo]

When you install the same parts on 5 different cars, there are not all going to perform the same. Different climates, fuel, mileages ect. You can't honestly tell me that if you installed 5 Motec systems on 5 different cars, they are all going to have the same settings? Installing a MSD box is not a "band aid", just safety factor that may need to be part of the kit. I don't have one on mine and don't need it.

Sorry SW your wrong and slightly right.

Yes they will have the same settings.

(wrong)The Motec compensates for different climates, altitudes, fuel temperature, mileages, etc. Just like the stock computer does, even better. If you buy your stock Viper in Detroit, and drive it to Colorado do you need Dodge to come out and recalibrate your computer? If your stock Viper (or any vehicle) recommends a certain octane gas and you use a lower one it will not run as well but will compensate to a certain degree. Nothing can change that.

(slightly right) Variances will happen and automatically be compensated for. The question is will they be at there optimum when this happens. The Motec system YES. Just like your stock computer. One day you could go to the dyno and run 399Hp and another day run 402Hp. Slight variances will happen but handled the best possible way.

SW I dont think your Viper is the basic Supercharged system on a stock engine? Is that why you dont you have to have the Box? I think Jim said you had like 25k into your Viper with the supercharger?

I can understand if you call it a safety factor. the question here is, Do you want a spider web as a safety factor, a masking tape web as a safety factor or a flying Walenda trapeze safety net?

I really dont associate the Motec with even being a safety factor because your not going to fall with it.

I also understand the stock computer can handle Hp upgrades. But not well balanced and in harmony with the system placed on it. Sure it will run, but have you ever seen a drag race when a Viper goes down the track and about 3/4 of the way down BLOWS A FIREBALL out the back as big as the car? Somethings wrong with the fuel management and the system is not in harmony. High HP thats pretty scary $wise and safetywise and enjoymentwise. 600 Hp - Sure the stock computer will handle the upgrade with a proper fuel system, and money is the issue that seperates the kind of safety net you want for it and how well it will be in balance. Motec being the ultimate way to handle it.

Sean can you answer this for me?

1. If I buy your Supercharger system How much is it?
2. If I place it on a 2000 Stock GTS, what is my expected Hp gain at the rear wheels?
3. Does it come with a fuel system?

I want to put it on and tune it with a Motec. Then if people want the ultimate way to control it I could offer them a computer tuned to a stock application with a harness and they could plug it right in. Probably not worth it to many people though.

jR.

 

[GTS-R 001]

SVSi Ron JR,

I have a 2000GTS and would be happy to have you fly up here with one of your Motec units and show me what you can achieve! As you can see I have all the necessay mods that should test your tuning capabilities. Bring one of your fuel system upgrades as well. My ROE SC will ship this Friday , so pick a day sometime the following week and make my day! If it works really good I'll buy it from you and worst case you get to answer all your questions.

Steve

PS. I already have some band aids here so you don't have to bring any.

 

[CitySnake]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CitySnake:

I'm the install that's holding everything up and the reason is that my motor is "more stock" (no upgraded rockers, headers or throttle bodies) than the beta car. Sean (and Chuck) have been working out the detonation problem one tweak at a time. It's been a daily tweak and check for the last week.
<FONT size="4">When it's finished (this week)...</FONT s> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now I get to quote myself....
Did I say this WEEK....WRONG!
Got the call! It's done. No detonation. Pick it up a little later because we're (Chuck Tator speaking here) going to take care of a few warranty items for you and we've got to wash the car (

no Zaino

). Chuck & Sean are the top of the line! (I would also imagine that this means there's not gonna be any more delays for everyone else

)

I'll write more after I drive it home....and them some &lt;insert ***** eating grin here&gt;.

 

[SneakyPete]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CitySnake:

Originally posted by CitySnake:

I'm the install that's holding everything up and the reason is that my motor is "more stock" (no upgraded rockers, headers or throttle bodies) than the beta car. Sean (and Chuck) have been working out the detonation problem one tweak at a time. It's been a daily tweak and check for the last week.
<FONT size="4">When it's finished (this week)...</FONT s> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now I get to quote myself....
Did I say this WEEK....WRONG!
Got the call! It's done. No detonation. Pick it up a little later because we're (Chuck Tator speaking here) going to take care of a few warranty items for you and we've got to wash the car (

no Zaino

). Chuck & Sean are the top of the line! (I would also imagine that this means there's not gonna be any more delays for everyone else

)

I'll write more after I drive it home....and them some &lt;insert ***** eating grin here&gt;.

Want me to send you the whiplash neck brace now or later???
watch out for the wheel spin at 90mph.

 

[SW]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SLITHRN:

Want me to send you the whiplash neck brace now or later???
watch out for the wheel spin at 90mph.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Congrats, you are going to love it. Just think, all that power with no band-aids...

SW

 

[SUN RA KAT]

CitySnake - did you get your Viper back yet and what kind of tweaks did it need from the Viper Wizard?

SW - what mods do you have other than the Sean Roe Supercharger?

Sean Roe - what did you do to fix CitySnake's Viper and when is Sean Roe Supercharger #35 being shipped?

 

[davisp]

Steve - who makes the boost timing master BTM ?? thanks pd

 

[GTS-R 001]

Davisp

It is an MSD product, find it at http://www.msdignition.com/ then look under automotive and then timing control its about half way down.

Steve

 

[Sean Roe]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SUN RA KAT:
CitySnake - did you get your Viper back yet and what kind of tweaks did it need from the Viper Wizard?

SW - what mods do you have other than the Sean Roe Supercharger?

Sean Roe - what did you do to fix CitySnake's Viper and when is Sean Roe Supercharger #35 being shipped?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Kenny,

City's car needed the MSD timing retard box and Chuck said he set it to remove 3 degrees. We had the MSD rep here yesterday and today and are setting up to buy one for each kit. We're covering the cost increase ourselves ($159 per box) and are not passing it along. Low octane gas and cars with stock exhaust will likely need them.

As an FYI, we're also in regular contact with Autorotor. They have made a proposal regarding an engine management system that we may take them up on. It looks like it may be helpful if we want to change the cam or make more than the 600 RWHP and 612 RWTQ we're making now using the stock PCM.

Your kit should be going out next Tuesday. We just started shipping again and are shipping 3 per day. #13 went out today.

You can find SW's mods (same as mine) in another post if he does not see this one.

Sean

 

[SUN RA KAT]

Thank you, Sean! I purchased my Viper 7/16/02 from Bill Pemberton at Woodhouse and had a lot of "necessary" mods done in preperation for your supercharger - Sean Roe Smooth Tubes with S&B Filters, Belanger Headers, Random Tech Ultra High Flow Cats, Corsa 3" Cat Back with 4" Tips, EBC Green Brake Pads, Lightweight Flywheel, MGW Shift Knob, Woodhouse Modified Shifter, 2" Seat Lowering Kit, and probably a few things I forgot plus some more MGW items and North California Viper Club Custom Floor Mats.

Then I got the Sean Roe VEC1 as the final mod before your Supercharger.

Now I see my "necessary" mods were really necessary mods.

I plan on taking a conservative approach and probably start off with CitySnake's MSD and VEC1 settings unless you have a different plan with my modifications for what the settings should start off at.