Tire age...

[georgethedog]

I just bought a new set of tires. The fronts are only a few months old according to the DOT date. However, the back ones date back to the 18th week of 2007. That is basically a 3 year old tire. Any thoughts?

 

[dave6666]

Oh no. Not another tire age thread. Buckle up buttercup.

In the Red corner we have smart drivers.

Track rats and driving instructors are simmering in the blue corner.

Huh? Was that the opening bell? Let's rumble ladies...

 

[Martin]

Any chance you can exchange them for some newer ones? They'll probably be OK for now, but one year down the line if you haven't burned them up from track use, I'd think they'd be approaching the end of their useful life.

 

[Dom426h]

What kind of tires and where did you buy em from?

 

[georgethedog]

What kind of tires and where did you buy em from?

At this point I really don't want to say. I just want some opinions. By the way, nice post Dave. Somehow I knew you would chime in but you didn't give your opinion...

 

[georgethedog]

Any chance you can exchange them for some newer ones? They'll probably be OK for now, but one year down the line if you haven't burned them up from track use, I'd think they'd be approaching the end of their useful life.

I don't track at all. I drive about 1,500 miles a year and but I do drive those miles a bit hard at times. I do like to challenge curves when I'm the only one on the road and in my car.

 

[jmillsUT28]

Well I was told that if they are stored correctly then you will not have a problem "If New". Old tires start getting hard after they go thru the heat cycles. So lets "HOPE" this is true as I just bought a new set of tires that were made back in 2008... I trust it is true.

 

[bluesrt]

i really would not worry about it unless you are gonna drive like a mad man

 

[viperdrummer]

I have a set of 19 yr old tires on one of mine--one of the first sets of tires ever put on a Viper--they ride fine for the 2 miles a month they get.

 

[georgethedog]

This is interesting:

Safety Research and Strategies (SRS) a consumer advocacy group that has urged the NHTSA to inform the public about risks of aging tires, cites 159 incidents of tread and belt separations of tires more than six years old in loss-of-control accidents. These 159 incidents caused 128 fatalities and 168 injuries according to SRS.

Despite these statistics, the average consumer-and sometimes even qualified tire technicians-remained unaware of the hazards of aging tires in the absence of guidelines and information. Tire industry documents produced in litigation show that tire manufactures know that tires have a shelf life. The natural rubber in tires deteriorates over time when it undergoes oxidation and ozonation. Three years after manufacture, tires become less safe and more prone to accident causing failure. (So according to this I am starting with less safe tires).

I just found studies upon studies that state that tires older than 6 years should be replaced whether or not they have been on the vehicle for that period of time. Surprisingly, I found research and recommendations that stated that tires deteriorate starting right after manufacture... In other words, it does not start when they are put on a car and driven. So, a 6 year old tire is a 6 year old tire whether you just put it on and thread seperation is just as likely.

Interesting... So basically I have 3 years of recommended safe use. I'm not sure I like that from tires I just bought new.

Again, my issue is not about who I bought them from or what type I bought. I will not go into that because my intent is not to make anyone look bad--it is only to research the issue of tire aging. I think if I bought new tires I should feel they will be safe for the next 6 years at least from a seperation issue (6 x 1,500 miles = 9,000 miles), I don't think that is too much to ask. If they are already 3 years old, then in my simple mind they only have 3 years before I should replace them.

Am I making sense or am I way off. I am no expert on tires, but I am a highly trained expert in doing research. So the question remains.

 

[georgethedog]

I have a set of 19 yr old tires on one of mine--one of the first sets of tires ever put on a Viper--they ride fine for the 2 miles a month they get.

That's great, but would you put those tires on your other wehicles and drive your Vipers like a Viper?

 

[eucharistos]

So basically I have 3 years of recommended safe use. I'm not sure I like that from tires I just bought new.

.... then in my simple mind they only have 3 years before I should replace them.

Am I making sense or am I way off. I am no expert on tires, but I am a highly trained expert in doing research. So the question remains.

if in your situation, i would feel like i got less than what i paid for, assuming you got no special pricing. especially as time may get them before mileage.

whether calm or not would depend on if i thought it was intentional or not

i'd be after a price adjustment or exchange

 

[Leslie]

if in your situation, i would feel like i got less than what i paid for, assuming you got no special pricing. especially as time may get them before mileage.

whether calm or not would depend on if i thought it was intentional or not

i'd be after a price adjustment or exchange

that was EXACTLY my first thought too....not so much how I would be using them (track or street) but more that I didn't get ALL that I paid for...and they AIN'T CHEAP

 

[Paul Hawker]

Fresh tires are better, but no reason to go crazy about this.

Vendors do not throw away tires just because they are old. It is better to discuss this before the sale, rather than after.

I would expect older tires to be offered at lower prices than fresh ones.

If you paid top dollar, then maybe a reduction might be negotiated.

 

[uvbnbit]

I remember about 4 yrs ago SnakeOyl was running a "special" on Pilot Sports. $1000/set. I jumped on it! They were a few yrs "old" by the date code, but I got 3yrs/15-18k miles out of 'em on the street/track/strip and no problems. Of course the track days I didn't have the grip as I woulda liked, but...
I guess what I'm trying to say is, based upon what you say your driving habits are, I think you'll be OK. Even more so if you got a "discounted" price. Be safe.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

This is interesting:

Safety Research and Strategies (SRS) a consumer advocacy group that has urged the NHTSA to inform the public about risks of aging tires, cites 159 incidents of tread and belt separations of tires more than six years old in loss-of-control accidents. These 159 incidents caused 128 fatalities and 168 injuries according to SRS.

Despite these statistics, the average consumer-and sometimes even qualified tire technicians-remained unaware of the hazards of aging tires in the absence of guidelines and information. Tire industry documents produced in litigation show that tire manufactures know that tires have a shelf life. The natural rubber in tires deteriorates over time when it undergoes oxidation and ozonation. Three years after manufacture, tires become less safe and more prone to accident causing failure. (So according to this I am starting with less safe tires).

Before we get all wound up, let's examine the data. 159 incidents from 100,000,000 vehicles on the road in the US that average 15,000 miles per year. And those accidents were with "well used" tires that had documented tread and belt separations; structural failures that would seem unrelated to "harder" rubber. Can they include data regarding tire pressure at time of incident? And the tires for Vipers start at a Treadwear rating of about 200, while "regular" tires are 400-600, so even if Viper tires get harder, they are still "softer" than most others.

George, I'll put my "technical review of advertising claims" hat on and remind everyone that every tire of every car in the world is less safe today and will be less safe tomorrow. The paint of every car will oxidize some more by tomorrow, and every plastic part in the world will exhibit ozonation effects. What that consumer advocacy group needs is performance data that measures the change in grip (stopping distance, side force, acceleration) of the tires at same pressure, same car, same temperatures, etc, etc. Are we expecting a three year old, new tire to have 1%, 10%, or 50% worse performance measurements? If the stopping distance is 10% greater (i.e. 110 feet vs. 100 feet for 60-0) that seems measureable by many and would have come to light before now. So the SRS needs to explain if they are predicting more than a 1% change over 3 years.

 

[dave6666]

By the way, nice post Dave. Somehow I knew you would chime in but you didn't give your opinion...

My opinion is well documented in previous threads on this.

But I love to post, so here goes again.

Know your equipment, and don't overdrive the car. Be smart.

For the technical side of my opinion, how many tire failures on a Viper due to tire age can you document for me? Crashing because they are old and don't grip doesn't count (see my first statement about knowing your equipment and being smart).

I don't sell new tires nor do I collect old ones. I have nothing to gain by having an opinion here. And I'm also not going to let the people that say tires are dangerous after 3 years without direct correlating data to our specific cars convince me to buy new ones just because they are 3 years old.

The RED corner has spoken...

 

[viperdrummer]

That's great, but would you put those tires on your other wehicles and drive your Vipers like a Viper?

Nope--they are purely ceremonial. I have some other interesting old tires including a couple from a friend who won the Brickyard on them.

 

[Sellshomesdrivesviper]

I guess if age of tires didn't matter, they wouldn't put date codes on them. Any one for a drink of milk?

 

[dave6666]

I prefer beer, THANKS.

I'll repeat myself. Show me specific Viper related data on tire failures that were not caused by driver error.

With maybe 20 million new vehicles sold each year in the US I bet all of the data and statistics (and underlying reasons and causes...) are for those 19,999,000 SUV's minivans and sedans that cruise the roads.

Did I overestimate that there were 1000 Vipers sold in a year to add to the statistical pool?

Your comment about why they put date codes on tires could go into the same collection of information that gets ignored by Americans every day. Did you read the warnings on your new toaster oven before you plugged it in? IT CAN KILL YOU! Do you ever step above the first step on a 3 ft step ladder? IT CAN KILL YOU!

 

[ViperGTS]

I saw guys driving around with +10 year old rubber on the snake.
Keep doing it! May make our snakes even more valuable! Or not.
I saw Viper dealers selling 5.5 years old tires as NEW.

The owner of the Viper did not know about the DOT numbers ...he was not pleased when I told him that he got NEW OLD TIRES on his 500 hp machine.

It's a shame that people want to drive a high performance car and cant afford new rubber (as new oil, brake fluid, etc...) once in a while

 

[georgethedog]

It's a shame that people want to drive a high performance car and cant afford new rubber (as new oil, brake fluid, etc...) once in a while

I thought I was getting new rubber. I was not told during the sale that the back tires would be 3 years old. I did not discover that until I got them. I believe the place that sold them to me feels that it is no big deal that they are 3 years old. They said that a tire gets 2% harder per year stored properly before a sale. So, my tires are 6% harder. I wish I could say the same about something else...

 

[jmillsUT28]

I know who you bought those from bc I got the same reply to my tire age question when I bought my new ones last week. I trust that this is true so that is why I bought them but i did pay regular price. I would have rather just bought ones less than a year old but I decided to go with the "new" old tires for some reason... ha Let's hope I made the right decision as I have some really nice curvy mountain roads that I will be hitting up once it gets warmer and do not want my tires to be holding me back...

 

[Sellshomesdrivesviper]

I prefer beer, THANKS.

I'll repeat myself. Show me specific Viper related data on tire failures that were not caused by driver error.

With maybe 20 million new vehicles sold each year in the US I bet all of the data and statistics (and underlying reasons and causes...) are for those 19,999,000 SUV's minivans and sedans that cruise the roads.

Did I overestimate that there were 1000 Vipers sold in a year to add to the statistical pool?

Your comment about why they put date codes on tires could go into the same collection of information that gets ignored by Americans every day. Did you read the warnings on your new toaster oven before you plugged it in? IT CAN KILL YOU! Do you ever step above the first step on a 3 ft step ladder? IT CAN KILL YOU!

Yes, there's been many times where was I drinking a Bud, and climbed up on my 6' step ladder to plug in the toaster oven.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

With maybe 20 million new vehicles sold each year in the US....

We all wish that there were still 20 million vehicles sold...

 

[georgethedog]

I just talked with a colleague here at the college and his brother is an engineer at Bridgestone. He said that if they have been stored correctly, there should be no problem. He also said that it is their company policy that once a tire reaches 5 years old they will not sell it. He did say that they sell 3 year old tires all the time without issues or worries.

I will probably burn through the back-end ones within a couple years anyway. But apparently they do not make this tire anymore in the back size (and that is why they sold the old one) so I will have to figure out what to match it up with because I plan on getting more than 2 years out of the fronts. I have read on this board about people mixing tires, so apparently if you do it right there is no issue.

When it comes time to dump the backs (and hopefully the fronts are still good) I will be asking what tires would match up best because I REALLY do not want to get in the habit of buying new tires every 2 years. If that's the case, the Viper goes Bye Bye.

 

[georgethedog]

Case closed IMO. I did my due diligence... I asked you guys (thanks for the input), talked with Jon B, talked with my friend's brother who is a tire engineer, and talked with Luke at Tire Rack. All parties feel the tire is not too old and that I will burn through them faster than they will deteriorate structurally. So, I am satisfied with the answers. Thanks to everyone. On to the next issue...