Torque 1, Tranny 0

[RedGTS]

Just got back from lunching my tranny. Did a 2nd gear WOT burst from a roll, hit 3rd, accelerated hard for about 2 seconds and then I started hearing fairly loud clackety-clack sounds coming from underneath the car--bad sign. Pushed in the clutch and put her in neutral, let the clutch back out and coasted and I'm still hearing some clackety-clack stuff but not quite as bad. Coasted to a stop and gently tried 1st, 2nd, and 3rd--quite loud clanks, no go. Fortunately 4th engaged and I was able to lug home (was only about 4 miles from the house).

By my calculations, my tranny survived with the turbos about 40 or 50 actual miles, not counting Jason's test drive. And I was only pushing 1,150-1,200 lb ft through it too; I guess they just dont' make things like they used to. Any ideas on how bad it is and whether there is a way to strengthen it during repairs are most welcome.

 

[Inferno]

That's ****** man, it sounds like you didn't even get to play with her much after the TT's.

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

Sorry to hear....best bet is to just sign it over to me and let me see if I can make a good planter or yard art out of it!! LOL!!!

1200TQ!!!.....might have better luck dialing it back a bit.

 

[RedGTS]

1200TQ!!!.....might have better luck dialing it back a bit.

The really interesting part is I was on "low boost." I'm not sure I'm gonna need the "high boost" setting at this point.

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

Looks like your're gonna have to re-learn how to drive the killer Viper. Luckily you have enough power and torque that you can roll into the throttle smoother than you could when stock (or lightly modified)....and still kill most anything!!

 

[PDCjonny]

Yea, call these guys http://www.rsgear.com/

 

[RedGTS]

Yea, call these guys http://www.rsgear.com/

Thanks for the link. Looks like they have some things worth investigating.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

My guess is you've stripped the synchro teeth off third gear. I did it on second gear. If you're rebuilding it yourself, these guys are quick for parts.

http://www.thegearbox.org/pages/3/index.htm

What made me feel better was someone told me that T-56's were like razor blades...

 

[RedGTS]

My guess is you've stripped the synchro teeth off third gear. I did it on second gear. If you're rebuilding it yourself, these guys are quick for parts.

http://www.thegearbox.org/pages/3/index.htm

What made me feel better was someone told me that T-56's were like razor blades...

Thanks Tom. I'm not sure what that meant--that they were disposables you just use a little and throw away I guess.

 

[RedGTS]

Tom, could stripping the synchro teeth off third have occurred by 3rd popping back out of complete engagement while I was accelerating? And would stripping those teeth also cause 1st and 2nd to be unable to engage?

 

[Schulmann]

I did the same to my Tranny except that I was in 5th gear !!!

How much torque these transmissions can handle ?

 

[AviP]

If I recall correctly, the spec sheet on the T56 says 450hp. That doesn't make sense to me since the Gen IIIs are already at 500hp stock. Here's a link. http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/T-56.asp

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Yes, it was a very subtle joke that the T-56 gets used up. It took me a minute to think and laugh about it, too.

The "gears" that provide the torque ratios are actually always meshed with the countershaft. When you shift gears however, you engage the synchro teeth, the little nubby ones that the slider captures. When you shift, whatever pair of little teeth are locked together determine what gear is used. Again, those large gears are actually always engaged, but not locked together. Hard to write it, but makes more sense when you see a transmission.

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In this example, the "gear" is determined by the number of the large teeth, but what can fail are the little teeth.

If these teeth are broken off, only that gear is affected, all others will still work. The little teeth are caught on the two large heavy duty magnets in the bottom of the case. Could they be knocked off by popping out of gear? Well, if you pop out of gear, it is a sign that those teeth are perhaps already coming off, or the shape (they are very slightly diamond shaped) has changed. Once the diamond shape is worn smooth, it will let the slider shift to neutral - popping out of gear.

I think I saw that the new T-56 has a one-piece countershaft, unlike the two piece in Gen 1- Gen 2 versions.

 

[RedGTS]

Thanks for the explanation Tom. If I'm understanding it correctly, it sounds like I must have done something a little more serious than just knock off the teeth on the 3rd gear synchro since it won't go in 1st or 2nd either.

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

So, Ronnie....you gonna update your sig to read:

01 GTS Heffner TT Red w/silver stripes....knackered tranny


?????

 

[RedGTS]

So, Ronnie....you gonna update your sig to read:

01 GTS Heffner TT Red w/silver stripes....knackered tranny


?????

I don't know Tony, but I bet I can take you 40-140 without fixing it.

Stuff breaks, you get it fixed. I don't expect it to be down long.

 

[Schulmann]

RedGTS, who will do your tranny job ?

 

[RedGTS]

RedGTS, who will do your tranny job ?

I'll probably have my Viper tech pull it so we can see what's wrong and then decide between rebuilding it or replacing it.

 

[Schulmann]

My Tranny is already at the local Tranny shop. I will tell you to-morrow what they will find.

It seems that Firebirds, Camaros, Corvettes, Mustang and Vipers share the same T56 tranny. However there might be some different parts inside.

My specialist told me honestly that he never saw a Viper tranny but he rebuilt many other T56. He promised to fix it for Friday if parts are available.

 

[RedGTS]

My Tranny is already at the local Tranny shop. I will tell you to-morrow what they will find.

It seems that Firebirds, Camaros, Corvettes, Mustang and Vipers share the same T56 tranny. However there might be some different parts inside.

My specialist told me honestly that he never saw a Viper tranny but he rebuilt many other T56. He promised to fix it for Friday if parts are available.

Please do. Was 5th the only gear you couldn't engage? Thanks!

 

[GARY J]

Seems like I remember reading that the viper t56 was the "beefed up" version.

 

[Schulmann]

My tranny is working again ....

Well my transmission was rebuilt by a local tranny shop in a very short time just in 3 days !!! That’s the best news. The guy who worked on my tranny told me that he rebuilt 11 T56 Tremec transmissions. It was his first Viper one. He was stunned that there are only a few Viper transmissions that fail. According to him these transmissions are very weak. One of the raisons that he told me is that the splines are not enough long on the main shaft for the gears. When he builds race cars he always uses the Tremec TKO-500. The viper transmissions are a little stronger because they uses steel forks and other better quality parts.

However there is bad news too. My tranny tech believes that my oil broke down because of over heating. He advised me to change the type of oil that I use and change it very frequently if I race with my Viper. I just ordered 4qt. Amsoil 75-90w oil. He also advised me, if I continue to race, to install a transmission temperature sensor and a gauge.

The side of my 6th gear was completely demolished. The main shaft was “rusted” under the synchronizers and 5th gear. The 6th gear was spinning on the main shaft like a simple donut. He changed the sync ring, the output shaft and the 5th and 6th gears.

Anyhow I am not a really racer. I did a few drag racing and VOI 8. I think I got a good lesson to change my tranny oil more frequently. But I think my Viper was just poorly maintained before I bought it.

My tranny tech also advised me to change the rear gear ratio to reduce the force on my transmission. According to him the 6th gear takes too much force. A 3.55 rear gear could easy the force on my transmission. I am a heavy user of the 6th gear. So this could explain why my 6th gear fixing was demolished.

 

[PDCjonny]

Re: My tranny is working again ....

I had to have mine rebuilt after only 10K miles, the previous owner wrecked it unbeknownst to me. I had lost third gear and it was getting so bad I wouldn't use third, skipped over it. I had no warranty which hurt so I bit the bullet and had it rebuilt.

 

[FlyBryViper]

Re: My tranny is working again ....

Here is a little Tranny oil feedback for anyone interested.
During Viper Days events, several of us were having difficulties shifting toward the middle and end of each session. The tranny's were hot, and therefore the lubrication. Now, we were all using the same fluid, highly recommended for Viper Days. I don't want to offend anyone with what brand it was, but not the stock fluid. Anyhow, several of us changed to Motul Gear 300, a 75W90 ester based synthetic tranny lube. What a difference. It shifts as easy as the ATF type fluids when cold. But, the best part, the hotter you get it, the better it shifts. It truly is amazing stuff, and has helped several of us achieve better lap times.

 

[RedGTS]

Re: My tranny is working again ....

Schulmann, thanks for the update and I'm glad you're back on the road. I hope to join you soon! FlyBry, I wonder if that fluid would be good for those of us who don't road race but are pushing 2-3x the stock torque through our tranny?

 

[FlyBryViper]

Re: My tranny is working again ....

Absolutely. Even just driving it on the street, I am amazed how easily each gear engages. If it feels this good at track events, and on the street, why not at the strip.
I was a drag racer before, and we all ran D4ATF. Good stuff for the 11 seconds it takes at the 1/4 mile. And some track guys certainly like it road racing. Several of us are now aware of a smoother, quicker fluid that shifts better the hotter you get it. If I were still drag racing, I would not hesitate to use it!

 

[Schulmann]

Re: My tranny is working again ....

FlyBryViper, you are right about oil. However ...

USING GEAR OIL
==============
When the tranny is cold it is difficult to shift.
When it gets hot shifting becomes easy.
With gear oil you "destroy" the tranny when cold.


USING ATF (automatic tranmission oil)
=====================================
When the tranny is cold it is easy to shift.
When it gets hot shifting stays easy but oil fries.
With ATF oil you "destroy" the tranny when hot.


Manual tranmission oil
======================
Hot or cold shifting should be easy and oil should keep its hability to lubrificate. Unfortunately the Mopar 75-85w doesn't do it.

After market Syntec manual transmissions oils:
==============================================
No matter cold or hot, shifting is easy and transmission is
well lubricated.
There are only a few manufacturers that make them.
They are widely available in Europe but not in North of America.
The only one that I spotted is the Amsoil.

 

[Schulmann]

*DELETED*

 

[FlyBryViper]

Re: My tranny is working again ....

Exactly what I learned many years ago racing. Only thing is, this Motul stuff shifts as easy as all the ATF type fluids I have used when cold, and definitely shifts better than that when hot. I was a firm believer in the other brand, but I can't afford to screw-up a shift and loose a session to another track rat. This stuff is amazing.

 

[Mr Hemi Head]

Re: My tranny is working again ....

FlyBryViper, you are right about oil. However ...

.

After market Syntec manual transmissions oils:
==============================================
No matter cold or hot, shifting is easy and transmission is
well lubricated.
There are only a few manufacturers that make them.
They are widely available in Europe but not in North of America.
The only one that I spotted is the Amsoil.

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Question

The local Viper Tech replaced my transmission oil with MOPAR pn4874459 ($26.30 qt) due to hard shifting into 2nd when cold. He stated that this is a synthetic oil, is it not?