Track question, SRT10 coupe vs GTS

[GR8_ASP]

My recollection of magazine test results back in the 2002-2003 period was Gen II with ABS around 115 ft 60-0 and Gen III around 105 ft. Best I recall was 97 ft for the Gen III.

I have measured mine with the OEM tires and on asphalt could repeatedly do 100 ft or less. Not a huge difference with ABS off as long as the electronic proportioning valve is working. That is something the Gen II did not have (I do not beieve).

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

SylvanSRT, thank you. That form of fade is related to the size of the brake pad, since a car of equal weight (i.e. old and new Viper) and equal speed will generate an equal amount of heat at each corner. (Also ironic that the smaller Gen II ABS calipers were "good enough" to create enough braking to cause that amount of heat!) The pad will overheat if the appropriate compound isn't used, and a small size pad will run hotter than a larger pad. To come full circle in my thinking, it's not that larger calipers are inherently better, it's that larger pads are better and you need larger calipers to squeeze on them. The practical application is that the older cars probably need harder pads for track use and those pads are maybe too cold for street use. A larger pad on a Gen III won't get as hot and therefore one compound might span the track and street performance envelope.

 

[Gforce]

I had a 99 GTS for 6 years (40 track days) and was very competitive at the track (archer suspensin, roller rockers, [******] exhaust, braided lines, unichip...). Dyno'd at 450 rear wheels.

I have had my SRT (motons, flywheel, K&N) for 1 year (4 track days) and I am still not as fast.

The GTS was a lot faster existing corners. Once you stepped over the limit, it was more drastic but within the laws of physics, I could accelerate sooner and harder in the GTS.

In the SRT, the brakes are just phenomenal. Under my GTS braking points, I end up stopped at about 200 ft to apex . However, the GTS has challenges with the differential (which can be fixed with a Quaife). It allows the inside wheel to spin for a bit before kicking in the posi. This definitely affects power on out of corners.

As I learn to brake later, I am getting faster in the GTS. Hopefully I will get to where my improved braking makes up the difference but what the heck - its a convertible and tons of fun. Besides - I sold the GTS to James (who also had an RT/10 and SRT10) and he was slower in the GTS than his RT/10 even though the GTS will ultimately get him better lap times.

Bottom line: if you are driving at the limits, the cars handle very differently.

Hope this helps.

j

 

[GR8_ASP]

I had a 99 GTS for 6 years (40 track days) and was very competitive at the track (archer suspensin, roller rockers, [******] exhaust, braided lines, unichip...). Dyno'd at 450 rear wheels.

I have had my SRT (motons, flywheel, K&N) for 1 year (4 track days) and I am still not as fast.

The GTS was a lot faster existing corners. Once you stepped over the limit, it was more drastic but within the laws of physics, I could accelerate sooner and harder in the GTS.

In the SRT, the brakes are just phenomenal. Under my GTS braking points, I end up stopped at about 200 ft to apex . However, the GTS has challenges with the differential (which can be fixed with a Quaife). It allows the inside wheel to spin for a bit before kicking in the posi. This definitely affects power on out of corners.

As I learn to brake later, I am getting faster in the GTS. Hopefully I will get to where my improved braking makes up the difference but what the heck - its a convertible and tons of fun. Besides - I sold the GTS to James (who also had an RT/10 and SRT10) and he was slower in the GTS than his RT/10 even though the GTS will ultimately get him better lap times.

Bottom line: if you are driving at the limits, the cars handle very differently.

Hope this helps.

j

I think you said GTS a few times when you meant SRT. Especially the one about inside tire spin. That is definitely a limitation on acceleration in a corner.

 

[CCBrian]

Sorry to get back here so late. Differences were fade, not stopping distances...although ABS makes even amateurs look like heros in braking zones if they come in too hot or there is something down on the track. At Thunderhill here in CA, after 4 or 5 laps, my '01 suffered major brake fade...but I do drive hard. The clincher was when my wife came in early one session and she had to "pump the brakes" coming into turn 10 to slow down. This was after only 10 minutes or so.The car never went back out on the track and was sold with less that 3000 miles on it right after to buy a Panoz GTS. Overall, you can fix the problem with the brakes with the earlier cars, but they are still down 50 plus horse. The new car also instills much more confidence to drive fast...just a seat of the pants observation. Also, I can tell you what an ABS failure is like on the track in a Comp Coupe. My CC just got back from Dodge who chased an electrical gremlin that we could not find.It took Roush over 2 weeks to find it with even with all of their talent. When ABS works its great, although even in a race environment they rarely are used, but on occassion, when they are called upon to work, it can save your butt.But if you think its there and its not, its usually too late to try to modulate the brake pedal. At that point you are just trying to save the car.Remember, if you have ABS, there is no real skill involved. You just stand on the brakes. Without, like in my Panoz, you are modulating, or working the brakes up to their threshold as to not lock them up. Different driving technique with the same desired results. Brian

 

[ACR steve]

The truth is a SRT coupe will take a GTS on the track and for nothing else but the fact that they brake far better.We all know even with a so called 50hp increase in the SRT they just do not pull in a straight line from the GTS's.Who knows why!.... The SRT has much better brakes so even if everything else was equal it would post better times just because of the brakes, there is no debate.I think people's personal confidence in either car is swaying there individual times but a very good driver should always post better times in the SRT.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

But Steve, you're so easy on brakes !!

 

[GR8_ASP]

We all know even with a so called 50hp increase in the SRT they just do not pull in a straight line from the GTS's.Who knows why!....

It is called gear ratio. The SRT has taller rear tires which counteract the higher torque. That is until the Gen II needs to shift and for a short moment the SRT has a big acceleration edge. That is only if the SRT driver takes it to near red line. Otherwise he is giving away the advantage.The SRt shifts at around 6000 rpm with taller tires and the Gen II probably around 5600-5800 rpm with shorter tires.

On courses like Gingerman where both cars keep it in 3rd gear there is no disctinctive hp advantage because the SRT does not reach its powerband. Now put 18" tires on the SRT and it will show the difference in power more clearly.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

In the 1/4 the SRT is .1 to .2 faster. How much faster do you expect 50hp to give you?

I know somebody is going to come on here and talk about Mike running 11.7 or whatever it was in his GTS. But I've been with SRTs at the dragstrip, same track, same day, same driver skills, bone stock down to the rubber and the SRT is faster.

 

[ACR steve]

Tom, now thats just plain wrong .How dare you insinuate something.I am very light on my brakes on the track(have not been through pads yet )maybe thats why I dont own a SRT

 

[VPRGTS]

On paper the SRT should be faster (brakes, HP, etc.).

However, I don't think that I would be initially as fast in an SRT because of my familiarity with the GTS. This would come with seat time.

Now, if you were to put someone that has never been in either, I would expect them to be faster in a Gen III. I believe it is easier to drive.

Having seen a few of the Gen III Coupes on the track, they look very good in the turns, even in stock form.

If nothing else, I believe the SRT would be more fun and less expensive to run.

Gen III more fun? I say that because if you are really getting to the limits of the Gen I/II cars you are having to screw with brake maintenance a lot. You have much less of that with the brakes on the Gen III (up the fun factor if you aren't having to pull wheels and screw with brakes frequently). You are also able to stay out on the track at speed much longer with Gen III because you still have brakes (again, up the fun factor).

In terms of cost, you would use less materials and labor with Gen III (pads, rotors, fluid, etc.). Because the braking system of the Gen III's have larger brake pads, rotors, and calibers, there is less heat and less wear.

And then there is the warranty situation. Will Dodge be picking up the tab or will you? Gen III wins again.

I want a Gen III Coupe, but I'll be patient and wait until the prices drop like the Convertibles when the '08s come out and forgo the HP increase. If I had to do it right now, I'd buy a SRT Vert, $55-$60k, best deal going IMO.

That outta stir it up!

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Financial math says fun is related to $$ and:

$$Gen II + $$brake < $$Gen III

Plus the fun of being amateur crew chief for the underdog and making it perform at least as well!

But good point about making Viper track days a fun event. It's exactly why I have a trailer the Viper can tow with tires, tool box and jack. (and extra brake pads!) Big cheer to Steve for getting SRTs on the track at Lime Rock.