Twin-Turbo guys with Scavenge Pump Systems... IN HERE...

[Viper Specialty]

As many people know, the scavenge pump arrangement needed in a Twin Turbo car is one of the largest problems, hands down. The current market is a mess for these products, and results in one of more of the following:

1. Failure of pumps as they were never intended to pump hot oil reliably.

2. Inability to properly scavenge due to pump design. GEAR PUMPS were never meant to pump oil froth or air in quantity!

3. Single pump twin turbo systems do not reliably scavenge both turbos- some conditions are selective causing random oil backup in system.

4. Cost, complexity and weight of installing twin pumps- if even possible, often doubling the problems of 1 & 2.


We are currently working with a pump manufacturer to develop a proper solution. A single pump, designed for scavenge duty of hot oil froth specifically [not just the CLAIMED design intent of re-branded water or liquid pumps!], which will be able to correctly scavenge twin inputs reliably in ALL conditions.


If we build it... will you buy it? This is not just a Viper specific application, nor is it turbo specific. It could be used to scavenge other areas of engines or similar systems as well.

 

[drlee50]

I have used an exapump for a year with my twins no problem. Is your pump better than this one somehow? My drains Y to a single - 10 to the pump and it pumps up to the valve cover. One way valve at the back of the pump and small catch cans under the turbos. No smoke no problems.

 

[mbccenter]

If it is a good product avalible in less then 30 days at a competitive price then yes..... I know I want everything.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I have used an exapump for a year with my twins no problem. Is your pump better than this one somehow? My drains Y to a single - 10 to the pump and it pumps up to the valve cover. One way valve at the back of the pump and small catch cans under the turbos. No smoke no problems.

The Exapump is a Spur Gear type pump, which is not a true scavenge design. They are very inefficient for pumping low viscosity high volume @ low pressure, which is exactly what a scavenge pump technically should be. A spur-gear design is normally used in a liquid pressure or liquid transfer application. Think of is this way: a true scavenge pump will pull a large volume vacuum on the line- think of it as a "shop vac" compared to a standard oil pump.

Yes, this pump will outperform Exapump in every way possible, with no catch cans or check valves needed. Your current design is the same or similar to what many cars run including a few systems we needed to build ourselves- they are far from perfect. You may not have smoking issues, but I will bet dollars to doughnuts you still have oil in your piping- I have yet to see a scavenged car that doesn't have a problem in one way or another, in some condition.

 

[Viper Specialty]

If it is a good product avalible in less then 30 days at a competitive price then yes..... I know I want everything.

Competitive price is relative. Everyone knows we don't deal with cheap solutions- we deal with REAL solutions. Ideal fixes are custom tailored to an application, and do not have the luxury of being mass produced and then specified [incorrectly] in all kinds of applications in order to spread costs out. These pumps will be far more expensive to produce and more complicated to engineer than a typical pump as found elsewhere composed of a simple body with a couple gears and a cover plate. There will be no comparison in the quality of components and design compared to currently available options.

That being said, we are trying to keep the costs in the range of what two competitor pumps would cost, which is absolutely reasonable given the additional complexity, quality, and non-mass market production. Trust me when I say that from a design standpoint alone, you cannot compare these to something like Exapump or the RB Racing pump.

 

[drlee50]

Competitive price is relative. Everyone knows we don't deal with cheap solutions- we deal with REAL solutions. Ideal fixes are custom tailored to an application, and do not have the luxury of being mass produced and then specified [incorrectly] in all kinds of applications in order to spread costs out. These pumps will be far more expensive to produce and more complicated to engineer than a typical pump as found elsewhere composed of a simple body with a couple gears and a cover plate. There will be no comparison in the quality of components and design compared to currently available options.

That being said, we are trying to keep the costs in the range of what two competitor pumps would cost, which is absolutely reasonable given the additional complexity, quality, and non-mass market production. Trust me when I say that from a design standpoint alone, you cannot compare these to something like Exapump or the RB Racing pump.

If thats the case, I would certainly be interested as well. I am going to change out my mufflers in my side sills for some smaller ones once i get my air to water intercooler installed and the AEM infinity-10 installed. If there is any oil at all in the down pipes, i will buy your pump.

Question though-- if you are saying your pump pulls vacuum-- how much? and if it does, then i assume that it would pump air out the other side. On my race cars that i ran vac pumps to pull crank case vac OUT of the valve covers, i vented them to a catch can. Obviously, in the oil return situation, the last thing i want is to be pumping air back into my valve cover (or oil pan if thats where someone chose to return their oil) and increasing crank case pressure that is already probably too high in a boosted application.

also- how loud do you think your pump will be? expected number or hours/ miles it can run? any brushes in your motor design?
Thanks
Lee

 

[Viper Specialty]

If thats the case, I would certainly be interested as well. I am going to change out my mufflers in my side sills for some smaller ones once i get my air to water intercooler installed and the AEM infinity-10 installed. If there is any oil at all in the down pipes, i will buy your pump.

Question though-- if you are saying your pump pulls vacuum-- how much? and if it does, then i assume that it would pump air out the other side. On my race cars that i ran vac pumps to pull crank case vac OUT of the valve covers, i vented them to a catch can. Obviously, in the oil return situation, the last thing i want is to be pumping air back into my valve cover (or oil pan if thats where someone chose to return their oil) and increasing crank case pressure that is already probably too high in a boosted application.

also- how loud do you think your pump will be? expected number or hours/ miles it can run? any brushes in your motor design?
Thanks
Lee

Hi Lee,

In general, we see more evidence of system issues in the charge piping than in the exhaust system down pipes, FYI.

Expected vacuum is in the 15 inches range. Keep in mind however that Vacuum is not necessarily an indicator of total flow volume. While there would be some air volume out the other side, this is to be expected in ANY scavenge system design, even without a vacuum being created by a pump. The amount of volume you can actually pull through turbo seals is quite small. The pressure in the turbine and compressor housings will far exceed the amount of vacuum pulled in most cases, causing pressure to be forced out of the turbo drain even without any scavenge attached. Long story short, this will be a non-issue, and not even remotely compare to blow-by of even one cylinder let alone all ten.

-The pump will not be silent, but it will certainly not be annoying. We are looking at a few different designs at the moment for this reason.

-Hours/miles will not be an issue in the least. Expected lifespan will be in the thousands of hours, mileage would be irrelevant. I expect that a flat 5-year service range before inspection would cover even the most severe heavy use.

-There are multiple motors we are looking at. They are brushed, yes. However, these motor designs are industry known and tested in applications you would absolutely recognize. We have been using them for years in other automotive applications, and have yet to see one fail or exhibit heavy brush wear.

 

[coupe]

you cannot compare these to something like Exapump or the RB Racing pump.

I'm not very familiar with the "Exapump," but I've used RB Racing's pumps and flow control valves in turbocharger oil scavenge applications since 2008, including on a Footwell twin-turbo viper, and they have been flawless.

Spill the beans on why your pump is better than pump A or B, and I suspect you'll get more accurate feedback on whether or not turbo folks, including myself, would rather use your pump than pump A or B.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Coupe-

RB Racing pumps are NOT scavenge pumps technically, and are exactly the problematic pump type that spurred this whole thing into motion. The RB Racing pump is actually made by someone else, and is nothing more than a fluid transfer pump for the marine industry. By design, it was never, and will never be a properly functioning scavenge pump. Can it do the job in some applications? Sure it can- but it is absolutely not the correct pump to scavenge oil froth or large air volumes. A spur gear pump like RB Racing's simply does not have the ability to flow enough volume in terms of air to do the job correctly. Spur gear pumps need fluid through them in order to remain "primed", as the larger tolerances and low cavity volume prevent them from pulling a large volume and high vacuum. A true scavenging pump will pull a substantial vacuum and flow, even with no oil and un-primed. As I posted earlier, it is like comparing an engine oil pump to a shop vac. Your RB racing pump may seem to be working fine, but also as I posted above, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that it isn't working as well as you think. I have yet to see a system such as what I am figuring you have that does not have priority, surging, and oil in piping issues at least to some extent.

I cannot go into detail quite yet about specifics just in case we decide to push this off for a while, but believe me when I say that it will be a performer, and have features that anyone would want in this application. This market is riddled with "bandaid" solutions that everyone has accepted as "good enough" or worse yet has been swept under the rug and claimed as "normal". This is one of those particular things, and I would hope by now that anyone who has ever seen anything we have done knows that we don't subscribe to that, and will deliver exactly what we claim. I am not asking people to sign on the dotted line, I am merely asking that people post up if they are even interested in a product like this. If not, there is no way we are going to invest the time and money to produce it- we already have more than enough products that actually solve real problems that the market just overlooks due to costs. We have found out all too often that lately most people are more interested in dollars than solutions, and I am just trying to avoid that trap yet again unless there is actually an audience.

 

[coupe]

Fair enough Dan. However, I am thinking there shouldn't be "air" in the oil scavenge lines anyway, if the system is set up properly.

I'm all ears whenever you're ready to reveal it, but because price is still a factor, even to the Turbo Viper audience, I will hold off on saying whether I think it's marketable or not until I see how competetive that aspect will be.

-Matt.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Fair enough Dan. However, I am thinking there shouldn't be "air" in the oil scavenge lines anyway, if the system is set up properly.

-Matt.

Matt-

That is where you are incorrect in your thinking. Turbo scavenge output has a TON of air in it. Turbo oil seals are not absolute in the least. They have more in common with piston rings than they do O-Rings or "seals" as used elsewhere in an engine- they are metal, not rubber. When you have a pressurized turbine and compressor housing, that air volume goes directly through the seals and is pumped into the scavenge output.

Also what you arent taking into account is that since an oiled turbo is restricted on its feed/flow, and is scavenged by a positive displacement spur gear type pump in most cases [like RB] of a substantially larger flow rate, as soon as the pump primes, it empties the turbo, ***** air, and then loses prime again. This causes surging of the system, where the turbo fills/empties/filles/empties. True scavenge pumps do not lose prime, as they are designed specifically to handle air volume efficiently.

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[coupe]

Dan, I was partner in a turbocharger performance and rebuild business for over 7 years and have built/rebuilt literally hundreds, maybe thousands, of turbochargers. I'm very familiar with turbo architecture, as well as fluid dynamics of both the oil and the gasses.

If the seal (ring) clearances are set up correctly, there is negligible pressure/aeration of the oil (observation based) and as long as the turbo is not overly restricted, then you can measure a pretty accurate oil flowrate to help pump selection. Is there such a thing as too much pump or too little pump? Sure.

I am absolutely willing to see what your design has to offer over another, but in order to give you an answer to this question:

If we build it... will you buy it?

...I would need some more details.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Dan, I was partner in a turbocharger performance and rebuild business for over 7 years and have built/rebuilt literally hundreds, maybe thousands, of turbochargers. I'm very familiar with turbo architecture, as well as fluid dynamics of both the oil and the gasses.

If the seal (ring) clearances are set up correctly, there is negligible pressure/aeration of the oil (observation based) and as long as the turbo is not overly restricted, then you can measure a pretty accurate oil flowrate to help pump selection. Is there such a thing as too much pump or too little pump? Sure.

I can respect your opinion, but we agree to disagree. Between my engineering background and experience in this field, I see overwhelming evidence both in theory and practice that these systems absolutely do not behave as they are expected to on paper, which is the exact reason we are having this conversation. If the seals were actually capable of positive containment, this would be a non-issue, we could simply pump the oil in, through, and out back to the engine without the need for gravity drain. As it is, they don't work that way. Oil in the center section will pass the seals rather easily if the section if backing up, so you can imagine how much more easily air will pass those same seals.

What you are stating regarding the oil pump selection is completely a theory based assumption. On paper, a pump that can flow just more than the oil flow would be ideal. However, the reality is that air pockets in the oil change the pump dynamics drastically. The pump needs to be considerably larger in order to pass the air quickly enough to actually pump the oil. This is where the problems start in a system where the lines are near level, and both air and oil are being pumped. If the lines were vertical so the oil had priority at all times, things would be different. However, in this application, things need to be corrected for air, which is why an [incorrect] pump that flows 10x more oil than needed... still cannot scavenge a turbo system correctly all the time.

I am absolutely willing to see what your design has to offer over another, but in order to give you an answer to this question:

...I would need some more details.

You will certainly get them when the time comes, I assure you. If this product can be marketed elsewhere, it pumps more life into the project. This would also be useful for scavenging valve covers, valley pans, and other items as well.

 

[coupe]

And I respect your opinion as well; in fact, I regard you highly in the Viper world. But I assure you I'm not basing my opinion off paper theory or internet ramblings, but rather relying on real-world experience like you, as well as my engineering background, which included a stint as a piping and instrumentation engineer.

I'm anxious to see the proposed design. Have a great weekend!

 

[99 R/T 10]

And I respect your opinion as well; in fact, I regard you highly in the Viper world. But I assure you I'm not basing my opinion off paper theory or internet ramblings, but rather relying on real-world experience like you, as well as my engineering background, which included a stint as a piping and instrumentation engineer.

On that note, as soon as Matt is done with this intellectual conversation, he can get back to rebuilding MY turbos...................................

 

[Paolo Castellano]

On that note, as soon as Matt is done with this intellectual conversation, he can get back to rebuilding MY turbos...................................

Haha, now that's funny!


I think there might be a better idea than building a better scavenge pump............ Maybe building a gravity drain turbo system that does NOT NEED A SCAVENGE PUMP????? Hmmmmm

Dan, I just could not resist! I am sure there is a need for a better scavenge pump setup for all those foot well systems where the original designers just made something to get in and out of the shop rather quickly instead of building a whole system! I am sure more people could afford to up grade the pump if it was a reasonable cost.

I also have great faith in Coupe's experience in making his pump choice and check valve setup work to perfection. If he says he has done it, maybe that's a great option to consider!

 

[Viper Specialty]

I think there might be a better idea than building a better scavenge pump............ Maybe building a gravity drain turbo system that does NOT NEED A SCAVENGE PUMP????? Hmmmmm

Or perhaps use Oil-Less turbos and not have to deal with any oil nonsense in the first place? Now where would someone have gotten that crazy idea... Oh, probably from the same place that explained why Air/Water is a better option than Air/Air if executed properly

I also have great faith in Coupe's experience in making his pump choice and check valve setup work to perfection. If he says he has done it, maybe that's a great option to consider!

Everyones idea of perfection is different. I am sitting no more than 25 feet from a car running what is likely identical to what Coupe is running so far as Scavenge is concerned.

Does it work? Sure. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Could I get away with it? I think the market has answered that question already... but then again so have all of the manufacturers of all of the botched parts in these markets. This product is designed for a specific job, for the long haul, and with the ability to be adapted into other areas. I expect it will become a useful product in the long run in other ways.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Paolo- Please use the door on this thread that says "Exit". I do not appreciate you side-tracking this thread any more than you already have, nor trying to "sell" your system in my thread. I am not even going to bother responding to your shrouded sales-pitch. What you claim as fact based on what you think you know shows quite obviously you dont have all of the pieces of the puzzle, nor know how to assemble what pieces you do actually have.

 

[Paolo Castellano]

Paolo- Please use the door on this thread that says "Exit". I do not appreciate you side-tracking this thread any more than you already have, nor trying to "sell" your system in my thread. I am not even going to bother responding to your shrouded sales-pitch. What you claim as fact based on what you think you know shows quite obviously you dont have all of the pieces of the puzzle, nor know how to assemble what pieces you do actually have.

Dan, the last time I checked, this thread was trying to build a better mousetrap for the design limitation of the foot well TT systems whose turbos are mounted too low relative to the oil level in the pan......

There are many ways to skin the cat: The basic options are as follows:

1. Build/use a better pump
2. Oil less turbos
3. Build a gravity drain system

Dan, not trying to sell anything on here. Just making my assessment as to my opinion as to the merits of each option.

I also don't like it when you just make a comment that liquid to air is "Better" because all the non savvy tech guys believe every word you say. It's simply not the case as I responded it depends on the year car and the application.

As far as your comment about what you think I think I know and not having all the pieces to the puzzle........... So says the guy who DOES NOT have all the pieces to the puzzle nor was able to assemble all the pieces that were sent to him.

Like I said, it's great to make another band aid...... Let's see some pictures of the turbo system you have designed and fabricated that eliminates all the flaws associated with the classical foot well TT system that, "Just because it works, doesn't mean it's right".

I have made strides in that direction, you are making unnecessary band aids and are wanting to charge a lot of money to do so....... Sorry. it's the truth! I know you do a lot of super high quality cutting edge stuff, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree on this one!

 

[Viper Specialty]

Paolo- Please stop posting. You do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about, and everything you are talking about is based on a bunch of ASSumptions conveniently made to try and point in the direction you want them to go. I do not have the time to sit here and rip you a new one right now, so please, just stop typing, or go find another thread and leave me out of it, I want nothing to do with you or any of your products or ideas.

 

[VCA Forum Staff]

Folks...lets please get this thread back on track.

 

[Nine Ball]

I'm also an engineer. I'm also tech-savvy, and good with a wrench. I'm interested in hearing about the results of your product, Dan.

 

[SRT09]

Any more info on this?

 

[Viper Specialty]

Any more info on this?

Not at the moment, there are a number of projects on a deadline that need to be finished first, this will be done when things calm back down in a month or two.

 

[DingDong]

Dan,

Did you ever move forward with the production of your ultimate siphon type pump?

 

[Viper Specialty]

Dan,

Did you ever move forward with the production of your ultimate siphon type pump?

Temporarily shelved. Not enough initial demand to justify bumping other more important products to get it finished. Still intend to do it at some point in the near future.

 

[DingDong]

Dan,

Alright! Thanks for the info! I initially had an RB and it didn't cut it. Went with an Exapump and all smoking issues were cured.