Update on drilling O2 sensors and wire heat shielding

EllowViper

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Good info here! Just did some data logging and I had to trim all the cylinders quite a bit to get my LTFT under -10%. I had thrown "rich bank 1 and rich bank 2" codes along with some misfire codes on several cylinders...so I was well beyond 30% rich on my ODB data log. I right now I'm at 64% injector offset with cylinders 1/3/5/2/4/6 trimmed about -20ms with #9 trimmed about -45 ms and that pesky #10 about -70ms. Before basically only #9/10 were trimmed about -15 and -35ms respectively. Need to do some street driving and check my new timing, W/M, and fuel mapping too since I tweaked all that as well...sure wish my AC was working.
 

EllowViper

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Seems to be working pretty good this AM. Had to dial back in some timing since I had some "audible" pinging last night messing around at WOT. My 140+ mph blast into work logged around a 12.2-12.5 AFR pulling to redline in 4th. Gotta love the Tampa tollways....
 

01ACR/VIPER

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Other than the pesky light being on,does the p0135/p0155 codes do anything as far as the running condition of the motor?In other words....will it run ok even with the heater codes thrown?
 

Steve 00RT/10

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Other than the pesky light being on,does the p0135/p0155 codes do anything as far as the running condition of the motor?In other words....will it run ok even with the heater codes thrown?

I believe any code thrown off the front O2s will put the car in safe mode -- compromising performance. My understanding is that if the computer can't get accurate info for adjusting AFR (all input for this done by the front O2s)..... it will default to a very conservative mixture until the light is erased. The back O2s don't have the same responsibility. They are mainly for detecting convertor emission problems

Steve
 
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dave6666

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Other than the pesky light being on,does the p0135/p0155 codes do anything as far as the running condition of the motor?In other words....will it run ok even with the heater codes thrown?

I think some have said the PCM may respond by richening the mixture. I think I've also seen here where it's been said it does nothing but make you flunk inspection.

My preference was to fix the problem, so therefore, all of this is just interesting chit-chat.
 

01ACR/VIPER

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It`s just a expense I would rather not have right now.If the codes are not hurting anything then I can wait for the $200.00 purchase.:2tu:
 

01ACR/VIPER

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I have a SCT tuner and cleared them a couple of times.They come back within a few stop and start cycles.:rolleyes:
 

Steve 00RT/10

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Good info here! Just did some data logging and I had to trim all the cylinders quite a bit to get my LTFT under -10%. I had thrown "rich bank 1 and rich bank 2" codes along with some misfire codes on several cylinders...so I was well beyond 30% rich on my ODB data log. I right now I'm at 64% injector offset with cylinders 1/3/5/2/4/6 trimmed about -20ms with #9 trimmed about -45 ms and that pesky #10 about -70ms. Before basically only #9/10 were trimmed about -15 and -35ms respectively. Need to do some street driving and check my new timing, W/M, and fuel mapping too since I tweaked all that as well...sure wish my AC was working.

Hi Eric,

I believe you have my fuel trims for comparison on the back cylinders and base set. I throw misfire codes on the 01 car with stock pcm because of the blower/light flywheel -- not the fuel mixture. I have a 96 pcm on the car that gets the miles, but see no sense spending the money for the car that only gets 1500 miles a year.

Misfire codes do not trigger the safe mode like front O2s do.

Not all Roes came with the same size injectors so the base set will vary based on how much fooling the pcm the VEC needs to do.

I follow the 3rd tube argument, but still think it better to sense all 5 and then trim a couple accordingly by plug color. It's really only the back ones that need much work.

.....as opposed to the pcm seeing only 1 cylinder in closed loop (90% of driving) and then having to trim 4 by plug color. Seems safer to only trim one or two by color.

Seems to be working pretty good this AM. Had to dial back in some timing since I had some "audible" pinging last night messing around at WOT. My 140+ mph blast into work logged around a 12.2-12.5 AFR pulling to redline in 4th. Gotta love the Tampa tollways....


If I remember, you landed an old pcm to get rid of the heater codes? Are you running the VEC 3 IAT feature? 12.2 to 12.5 seems a little high to me...especially if not adding fuel when it's cooler with the IAT set up.

But I'll bet 12.2 to 12.5 puts a smile on your face....especially when you escape unscathed.

Steve
 

EllowViper

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Well, the 97 PCM I had picked-up locally has some really weird quirks. The IAC function does not work and it throws a CEL for low fuel pressure too. I didn't think that was a monitored signal so I don't know what's up with that specific PCM. I may put it back in and mess around with it some more since its been about a year since I messed with it, but getting it to idle is tough since the IAC doesn't seem to activate (throws a CEL for IAC). It really screams during WOT runs so I know at least it works in that regard better than the 01 PCM. Just really weird with the IAC and fuel pressure CELs. Like I said, I may mess around with it again and see if it still has these quirks (and pull the actual code #s too). I do not have the IAT function on my VEC. Sean upgraded it several years ago with the logging function but not the IAT...that is why I fragged my piston over Christmas running ******* a cool AM with my hot tune in. For the most part, temps here are pretty consistent, but we do dip into the 40's some mornings. And Yes...running in the low 12s AFR really wakes-up the motor. Max torque is delivered at 13.2 AFR...but that is a bit too dicy. One thing with the IAT. I wonder how much different the "delivered" IAT is after going through the hot blower? Is a 40 degree outside temp that much different than an 80 degree outside temp after being compressed through a 200 degree blower? It would be interesting to research. I know the cooling effect of the W/M is significant, but I wonder how much heat sink effect is actually taking place in regards to ambient air temps. I think I read somewhere that each PSI of compressed air increases its temp 10 degrees...so a 12 PSI boost is actually 120 derees hotter that its uncompressed state. At any rate, I'm running W/M both before and after the blower to try and address this.
 

Steve 00RT/10

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Well, the 97 PCM I had picked-up locally has some really weird quirks. The IAC function does not work and it throws a CEL for low fuel pressure too. I didn't think that was a monitored signal so I don't know what's up with that specific PCM. I may put it back in and mess around with it some more since its been about a year since I messed with it, but getting it to idle is tough since the IAC doesn't seem to activate (throws a CEL for IAC). It really screams during WOT runs so I know at least it works in that regard better than the 01 PCM. Just really weird with the IAC and fuel pressure CELs. Like I said, I may mess around with it again and see if it still has these quirks (and pull the actual code #s too). I do not have the IAT function on my VEC. Sean upgraded it several years ago with the logging function but not the IAT...that is why I fragged my piston over Christmas running ******* a cool AM with my hot tune in. For the most part, temps here are pretty consistent, but we do dip into the 40's some mornings. And Yes...running in the low 12s AFR really wakes-up the motor. Max torque is delivered at 13.2 AFR...but that is a bit too dicy. One thing with the IAT. I wonder how much different the "delivered" IAT is after going through the hot blower? Is a 40 degree outside temp that much different than an 80 degree outside temp after being compressed through a 200 degree blower? It would be interesting to research. I know the cooling effect of the W/M is significant, but I wonder how much heat sink effect is actually taking place in regards to ambient air temps. I think I read somewhere that each PSI of compressed air increases its temp 10 degrees...so a 12 PSI boost is actually 120 derees hotter that its uncompressed state. At any rate, I'm running W/M both before and after the blower to try and address this.

The IAT feature can never be exactly right as relates to the SC intake charged air temp. The charge temp will be considerably higher. However; even though it is not a linear equation from IAT temp to charge temp.......I look at it as a relative number. In other words, there is a correlation between the two based on your AFR readings. In essence, all the IAT feature does is incease/decrease % fuel between temperature parameters you set. Mine works slick from 35F-100F. At 124F IAT, I stop removing fuel and let it act as a cooling agent.....similar to the way the oem stock fuel map is set up. I think it works quite well for the tool it is. I used to run 3 cards before. I consider it a very useful upgrade.

Steve
 

EllowViper

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Well I have gone full circle with the 02 locations, running lean, and P0135 codes. For the past several months I have had my 02s in the collectors vice the two other locations in the headers. Could not get the tune right...very lean...with terrible tip-in hiccups. LTFT were fine but closed-loop drivability was terrible. AFR was anywhere from 15-18 in cruise around town mode. Got great mileage though!! Went back to the single tube locations on both sides and walla...running perfect with no P0135 codes. Tip in tuning was no issue and it spools "right now" to redline without any issue. AFR is now around 13-14 in closed loop with no lean misfiring that I was getting crusing around town, etcetera. I have bungs in the single tube, three into-one-tube, collector and have tried each location several times with tuning tuning tuning ad nausium. At the end of the day, I have to say the single tube is the best solution for my engine all things considered. Now i just have to see how much timing I can run with the 10 lb pulley since the drivability issue has been resolved. I'm at 8 degrees ******** max at 2500 rpm tapering to 6 degrees retard (from stock) at redline and I do not "hear" any detonation. I have a pretty good shot of w/m too. I think I can pull a lot more out.
 

Steve 00RT/10

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Well I have gone full circle with the 02 locations, running lean, and P0135 codes. For the past several months I have had my 02s in the collectors vice the two other locations in the headers. Could not get the tune right...very lean...with terrible tip-in hiccups. LTFT were fine but closed-loop drivability was terrible. AFR was anywhere from 15-18 in cruise around town mode. Got great mileage though!! Went back to the single tube locations on both sides and walla...running perfect with no P0135 codes. Tip in tuning was no issue and it spools "right now" to redline without any issue. AFR is now around 13-14 in closed loop with no lean misfiring that I was getting crusing around town, etcetera. I have bungs in the single tube, three into-one-tube, collector and have tried each location several times with tuning tuning tuning ad nausium. At the end of the day, I have to say the single tube is the best solution for my engine all things considered. Now i just have to see how much timing I can run with the 10 lb pulley since the drivability issue has been resolved. I'm at 8 degrees ******** max at 2500 rpm tapering to 6 degrees retard (from stock) at redline and I do not "hear" any detonation. I have a pretty good shot of w/m too. I think I can pull a lot more out.

I'd would be curious if you are the exception ...or the rule. My guess would be the exception. Fortunately you have the time, and knowledge, to monitor the other cylinders for plug color and/or detonation. Your AFR in closed loop is 13-14 on one cylinder per bank, likely the 3rd tube on each side. You have no idea what the AFR is on the others other than plug color. To me this would be like running blind in open loop with our cast piston cars.

Running a 10 pounder, W/M, and removing timing while only knowing the AFR from a single tube would be risky business for the majority of Roe owners.

Something else must going on there, but if you can mask the problem by doing the above and it all works well on your car, I say way to go!

Steve
 

EllowViper

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AF through my Innovate WideBand is actually reading all five cylinders in the collector. Just the 02s in the single tubes. Strangest thing trying to run the 02 in the collector. Just could not get the tune right. It idles and purrs like a kitten right now. I had forgot how well it would idle and run in closed loop with the 02 in the single tube....but you guys "talked" me into trying the collector location a few months ago when this issue surfaced...so I figured I'd give it a try again. I had kinda gotten used to the way it was running when I had it in the collector but was gettig tired of the P0135 codes so I put them back in the single tubes. All the plugs looked really great with the 02 in the collector with very little individual cylinder trim, but I could not get the tip-in hesitation and lean miss worked out with the VEC while maintaining a reasonable LTFT. I actually think I'm running a bit rich at idle right now looking at my AFR at idle, but the drivability is soo much better and under light closed-loop acceleration, my AFR is right at 13-14 whereas before it was 15-17. Still need to work on my WOT timing since I'm really rich when I ramp it up and am about max'd out on injector duty cycle. With the W/M I should be well over 100 octane so I have a lot of timing available to me and the fuel to suport it as well.
 

Steve 00RT/10

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AF through my Innovate WideBand is actually reading all five cylinders in the collector. Just the 02s in the single tubes. Strangest thing trying to run the 02 in the collector. Just could not get the tune right. It idles and purrs like a kitten right now. I had forgot how well it would idle and run in closed loop with the 02 in the single tube....but you guys "talked" me into trying the collector location a few months ago when this issue surfaced...so I figured I'd give it a try again. I had kinda gotten used to the way it was running when I had it in the collector but was gettig tired of the P0135 codes so I put them back in the single tubes. All the plugs looked really great with the 02 in the collector with very little individual cylinder trim, but I could not get the tip-in hesitation and lean miss worked out with the VEC while maintaining a reasonable LTFT. I actually think I'm running a bit rich at idle right now looking at my AFR at idle, but the drivability is soo much better and under light closed-loop acceleration, my AFR is right at 13-14 whereas before it was 15-17. Still need to work on my WOT timing since I'm really rich when I ramp it up and am about max'd out on injector duty cycle. With the W/M I should be well over 100 octane so I have a lot of timing available to me and the fuel to suport it as well.

Yup. Your WB is reading all 5 ...open or closed. I wasn't thinkin' straight. The PCM is adjusting for only one tube in closed loop. With mine, that produced an extremely rich condition. I had soot on the floor on start up and tip in. I had one plug on each bank burning good, the rest were all too dark when we bought the car with the older VEC 2.

There is no doubt that the collector area is the optimum place for the OEM O2s, but every car seems to react a little differently. I bought QFs to put in the collector area because our 01 is still running the stock pcm and I knew I would set the 130+ heater codes. Strangely enough, I now set the random misfire codes every 100 miles or so. Not a big deal, because unlike the O2 heater codes, they don't put the car in safe mode. I just clear them out. The strange thing is that with the OEM O2s in the 3rd tube, I set no codes at all......just lots of soot on start up and black smoke when going to WOT. How can O2 location have anything to do with the misfire codes?.....or why does the computer now see a misfire code when it never did before? It started happening as soon as I changed them out last year.

Looks like you're well on the way to having it well sorted out

Steve
 

99 R/T 10

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Hey Ellowviper, are you still running that 97 PCM? Do you think that could be causing the problem? I wouldn't be too worried about th eA/F at 15/16 in cruise mode. Critical to make sure it's about 12.0 at WOT.
 

EllowViper

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Haven't put the 97 PCM back in. Right now when I have a free weekend I just want to go for a nice drive and not spend the day tinkering with the car. I suppose the next rainy weekend after all the other Honey-Do's are done I might mess with it again. You know how that goes. Need to install my new AC compressor too. Always something when you wrench on these things yourself. Oh yea, with the 02s in the collector I was also getting the random misfire CELs too. I don't get those anymore now that the 02s are back in the single tubes. For what its worth.
 

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