Using Stoptech Big brakes on a 2000 GTS

FastZilla · Sep 9, 2009

Keep going (everyone) I'm listening.

Dave,
Thanks for the outstanding photos as always! (do you autoclave your car? man it's clean!)

Hirko,
We gotta have photos with what ever you decide. I'll be right on your heels with a similar, if not the same system on my RT.

I am very spoiled by the ACR brakes!

:eater:

dave6666 · Sep 9, 2009

Hirkophoto said:
Dave,
Spoken like a man with deep pockets.
Bigger is not always better (when your discussing brakes) if they are not properly matched to the car they could do more harm then good. If you have huge brakes in the back and they lock up constantly then what is the point.
I have a 2000 gts NON ABS. So this stuff needs to be figured out ahead of time. Also I don't care what the name is on the brake I needs to work the best. If that is Stoptech or Brembo so be it. Viper SRT calipers are brembo anyway.

Deep pockets or blind banker

But yes, the ABS does keep my system in check. I've tested it more than once. Without ABS as your '00 has, then as you stated your assignment requires more thought.

I bought an '01 because of ABS. And to rib Tom and Chuck later.

Tom said:
In fact, you have to grind the lower control arm, too?!

Not with the SRT kit...

RTTTTed said:
-Going with large 4 piston rear calipers and extra rear caliper for emerg brake adds a significant weight with no or insignificant advantage?

20 pounds only matters to those that keep their cars on a diet. I carry Wal-Mart freight in mine, so...

FastZilla said:
Dave,
Thanks for the outstanding photos as always! (do you autoclave your car? man it's clean!)

I am very spoiled by the ACR brakes!

Soap and water...

And short of the Stoptech rotors vs. my Euroteck rotors, I have the modern ACR brakes.

TexasPettey · Sep 9, 2009

I'm a budget sensitive guy, so price/performance is a huge factor for me. The other factor is cost/availability of replacement parts and pads. I don't want to get stuck have to buy from a specific vendor for wear items or rebuilds. I run DE's on a regular basis, so the car does get high performance use. Bling is not a factor for me. I've never really understood the fascination with bling on brakes. If you're after bling, I'm not the guy for advice.

I ran the following ordered list of upgrades

SS lines
Deflectors
Tom's rear 40MM
Cone Brake Kit
SRT Fronts w/ prop valve

If you're looking for maximum stopping power for your $, the SRT big brake kit with a prop valve is the way to go. You'll have to play with the prop valve to get the feel right for your taste of bias. I got that entire setup for about $1000. Granted, my rotors and calipers were used, but they had hardly any miles on them. The calipers still had the original pads in them with 90%+ pad left. SRT pads are all over the place, as are rotors. Low mileage SRT calipers are fairly easy to find.

Tom's rear is a good upgrade for your rears. Anything larger is essentially useless. You'll dial out so much rear pressure with the prop valve that the larger calipers won't be doing much for you.

If you are on the track regularly, you'll want SS lines & a duct kit regardless of the caliper & rotor setup. It will save you $ and help with endurance on the track. If you're not on the track, you don't need that. The SS lines and duct kit only help with heat buildup so you don't fade. If you are getting brake fade on the street, stop driving like a maniac and get your speed rush on the track before you kill somone.

If you can lock up the tires, you have enough brakes. You need to learn to use them.

FastZilla · Sep 9, 2009

dave6666 said:
Soap and water...

And short of the Stoptech rotors vs. my Euroteck rotors, I have the modern ACR brakes.

luc · Sep 9, 2009

good thread, here are some technical info on calipers and the reason for multi pistons and different sizes bore/diameter

Obviously the caliper piston job is to press the pad on the rotor and therefore create fiction that translate in heat and braking.
So why do some calipers have 1, 2, 4 ,6 or even 8 pistons with different bore sizes?

Number one reason is contact area, since a pad can't be much bigger than the piston that push it ( otherwise the pad will flex and create a bunch of issues) on a single piston caliper ( almost aways of the floating type on cars but often fixed on bikes) the pad size is limited by the diameter of the piston.
If you want a big pad, let's say that you will need a 6" piston, imagine the size of the caliper and the packaging problem that will go with it.

If pistons were rectangular or banana shaped instead of round, a single piston caliper could have a huge pad area and still be pretty small with no packaging issue.
They don't exist because machining and manufacturing cost will be much higher than a round piston.

So, we have established that having numerous pistons is just a way to have a big/bigger surface area without packaging or caliper size issue.
For example a 8 pistons calipers can be "banana" shaped to follow the contour of the rotor and fit underneath a "regular" sized wheel.

Why multi pistons calipers have different sized pistons?

Since the force exercised on the pad is directly related to the size of the piston(s) why do caliper manufacturers are in purpose having diferent forces applied to the pad(s) instead of the same equal force all across it?
Well, to get maximum braking, eliminate pad taper and uneven rotor weat or heat, you do no want the same force/pressure all over the pad.
When a wheel rotate obviously the rotor do the same and the braking action is started by the leading edge of the pad, that's why the leading piston is always the smaller and the trailing piston the biggest.
In another word, to get maximum braking and pad wear the pressure on the pad(s) should increase from the leading to the trailing edge.

Hirkophoto · Sep 11, 2009

bushido said:
This GTS has Dave's Big Brake kit, and the guys driving the piss out of it on the track..

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xD2db-ZuHY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efunnyvideos%2Ech%2FH2H%2DEp8%2DDodge%2DViper%2DVs%2DSuperformance%2DDaytona%2DCou%5F%5F2xD2db%2DZuHY%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded#t=15[/media]

Thanks for this video. This is one of my friends Vipers.
Lance from So Cal club. I have been discussing with him his brake system in detail for the + and - of the SRT conversion.

Hirkophoto · Sep 11, 2009

luc said:
That's not normal, you need to find the problem before doing any brake upgrade or you could end up with the same issue.
Check your brake power booster by doing the following:
Run the engine for a few moments, then turn the key off. Once the engine dies, press the brake pedal a few times. You should hear a hissing noise each time you press the pedal. Then hold the pedal down and start the engine. The pedal should move and get softer. If none of this occurs, verify that the booster has a vacuum source. If the booster has a vacuum source, and still does not boost the pedal effort, the booster is more than likely bad. One other alternative would be a bad check valve. Simply remove the valve and blow into it. It should blow easily in one direction, and not at all in the other.

I tested the booster as you said and it's functioning normally. The stock brakes just ****! If they didn't then this thread would be real short.

Hirkophoto · Sep 11, 2009

FastZilla said:
Keep going (everyone) I'm listening.

Dave,
Thanks for the outstanding photos as always! (do you autoclave your car? man it's clean!)

Hirko,
We gotta have photos with what ever you decide. I'll be right on your heels with a similar, if not the same system on my RT.

I am very spoiled by the ACR brakes!

Oh I will don't worry. You will see all the details.

Hirkophoto · Sep 11, 2009

TexasPettey said:
I'm a budget sensitive guy, so price/performance is a huge factor for me. The other factor is cost/availability of replacement parts and pads. I don't want to get stuck have to buy from a specific vendor for wear items or rebuilds. I run DE's on a regular basis, so the car does get high performance use. Bling is not a factor for me. I've never really understood the fascination with bling on brakes. If you're after bling, I'm not the guy for advice.

I ran the following ordered list of upgrades

SS lines
Deflectors
Tom's rear 40MM
Cone Brake Kit
SRT Fronts w/ prop valve

If you're looking for maximum stopping power for your $, the SRT big brake kit with a prop valve is the way to go. You'll have to play with the prop valve to get the feel right for your taste of bias. I got that entire setup for about $1000. Granted, my rotors and calipers were used, but they had hardly any miles on them. The calipers still had the original pads in them with 90%+ pad left. SRT pads are all over the place, as are rotors. Low mileage SRT calipers are fairly easy to find.

Tom's rear is a good upgrade for your rears. Anything larger is essentially useless. You'll dial out so much rear pressure with the prop valve that the larger calipers won't be doing much for you.

If you are on the track regularly, you'll want SS lines & a duct kit regardless of the caliper & rotor setup. It will save you $ and help with endurance on the track. If you're not on the track, you don't need that. The SS lines and duct kit only help with heat buildup so you don't fade. If you are getting brake fade on the street, stop driving like a maniac and get your speed rush on the track before you kill somone.

If you can lock up the tires, you have enough brakes. You need to learn to use them.

Thanks for the advice, I don't appreciate the smart ass remarks.
I don't get brake fade on the street. In fact this thread is not really about brake fade although that is part of braking or not. I drive my car on the track very hard and when I do I want more brakes. I want more pedal feel. The stock brakes are not giving me that feel. I have many miles of track experience and I know how to use brakes I just want more so I can brake deeper. :dunno:

Hirkophoto · Sep 11, 2009

SingleMalt said:
Wow -- look at this tread take off!!!

In answer to your 4/6 piston front caliper question; a fellow member answered it succinctly. The 6 piston will have the advantage of pad surface. This, if racing tight courses with high track temperatures, would probably amount to a difference you would notice. I'm VERY ******* my brakes (karter and instructor) and the Stoptechs gave me the feel and modulation I wanted with a slightly lower rear bias for when the car wears R-comps.

I chose to install the Stoptech big brake system on my car. The installation of the rear calipers required slicing the old caliper mount off, BUT (and check this on your car before actually taking a grinder to it) did NOT require grinding of the lower knuckles for proper clearance.

The evolution of my braking system went like so:

1) Stainless lines. This will get you your brake feel, but the stock calipers still flex more than the Stoptech units, so if you have a very sensitive foot, you will notice.
2) Tom's 38mm rears. This upgrade was exactly what I needed for balance, but brake fade was present.
3) Porsche front air deflectors. A great addition but did not fully cure the fade issue ($99 from Big Brake Dave I think) -- still have them on my car to this day
4) Stoptech big brakes. Life is now good!

Also, the pads for the Stoptech calipers come in all flavors so you can test, mix/match/etc... The same may be true for the SRT10 calipers; I'm not certain there.

Also, if your car is non-ABS, then the master cylinder is designed to move less fluid. The Stoptechs require about 1/4" additional pedal travel I would say (from the 38mm rear setup, maybe 1/3" total from stock) whereas if you did a Dave's Big Brake setup, I have no idea how much additional fluid is required and may cause you some grief with a pedal that has too much travel. Tom may be able to chime in here to help with his calculations on this.

Mike

Mike,
Just curious, what kit did you go with for the front and rear. 4 piston or 6 in front? Also which wheels are you running and did you have any clearance issues?
Hirk

Chuck 98 RT/10 · Sep 12, 2009

Hirkophoto said:
Thanks for the advice, I don't appreciate the smart ass remarks.
I don't get brake fade on the street.

I think you're getting a little sensitive there. When TexasPetty said "If you are getting brake fade on the street, stop driving like a maniac and get your speed rush on the track before you kill somone." I'm pretty sure he meant the figurative you, as in "people", and not the literal you.

Anyways, regarding bigger calipers I think the biggest advantage is heat disapation more than stopping power. I'm just betting that a properly balanced modified stock system like Tom's would provide very nearly the same stopping power as a ST-60 setup with the same size rotors. The feel would definitely be different but the actual ability for the brakes to stop the car would be nearly identical. JMO.

Depending on how stopping power is defined - how quickly the brakes stop the car or how easy it is to enable the brakes to stop the car. The latter greatly determined by the size of the driver's thigh.

TexasPettey · Sep 12, 2009

Hirkophoto said:
Thanks for the advice, I don't appreciate the smart ass remarks.
I don't get brake fade on the street. In fact this thread is not really about brake fade although that is part of braking or not. I drive my car on the track very hard and when I do I want more brakes. I want more pedal feel. The stock brakes are not giving me that feel. I have many miles of track experience and I know how to use brakes I just want more so I can brake deeper.

Wasn't my intention to single you out, but for other folks that read up as this thread seems to have changed from your original 'StopTech' rotor sizing question.

In the context of pedal feel, pads may also be something to explore. If you are looking for more initial 'bite', you may try a different compound.

Leslie · Sep 12, 2009

What Chuck 98 RT/10 said!

Bottom line is braking power and dissipating heat, you can have ALL the bling you want and spend all kinds of money to look good, and STILL not have good braking power.

crazyspeed · Sep 12, 2009

Tom, thanks for the speedy service. ..got the rear 40mm calipers yesterday...covers look really good too..matches the frt calipers very nicely. Gonna install today..

Hey , I'm gonna have performance and with the covers...some Bling too :2tu:

Tom said:
Take the old brakes off and before you is everything to put the new ones on.
Purchase only two pieces; left caliper and right caliper. Takes 1 hour.

Brevity = Clarity

For a little bling, still have one set black brake covers, many more red covers - your choice and free with purchase while they last. My phone number, performance data, installation instructions, pix of covers, other advantages and details all listed on the website.

dave6666 · Sep 12, 2009

Tom said:
Dave, you are now on technical probation, too. Stoptech has a nice write-up on how ABS does not automatically allow you to slap on just any size caliper. StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades By the way, did you ever work summers at Avis or Hertz cleaning up return cars? Wow.

Tom, your suggestion that in a drunken stupor I stumbled my ass into Disco Bob's Burger's-n-Brakes and hollered "I want the big red ones..." My technical savvy and intellect go way past that as you insinuate the same to everyone that has done the SRT upgrade. Wow.

As stated in this thread, I contacted all of the players in the world of Viper brakes, and made a technically sound decision without bowing to any marketing hype, BS, horror stories or the like.

I also have no brother-in-law that sells brakes so I really did get to do this one on my own.

PS - My career at Avis was cut short when I got fired for bring the cars out of the detail area with clean undercarriages and white... :rolaugh:

Chuck 98 RT/10 · Sep 12, 2009

Joseph Dell said:
Not sure who else can comment on this... but I've driven both my car (Stoptech fronts + Tom's 40mm rears)

Are you sure they are 40mm? I have Tom's 38mm to match my Stoptech fronts. Just guesing but a 40mm rear with Stoptechs would require a pretty weak pad in the back.

Tom F&L GoR · Sep 12, 2009

Chuck, Joe has a the larger Stoptech rotor also, so some of the decrease in brake torque from the smaller front caliper is made up for by the increased diameter of the front rotor. With a 40mm rear it pushes the balance more rearward overall as compared to your system, as you are pointing out, but still on the flat part of the balance curve.

SingleMalt · Sep 12, 2009

I have the 355mm 4 piston up-front and (I believe) the 328mm 4 piston in the rear. It's the Stoptech complete 4-wheel big brake setup. I run 19" CCW 505A wheels on the street with no problems. It may be worthwhile to find out from Stoptech if your particular wheels will have any clearance issues, but most 18" and 19" wheels provide adequate space. Whatever you end up going with, enjoy the additional feel/feedback you're looking for and be safe!

Mike

For reference, here is the catalog entry for what I have:

83.260.4743.xx Viper - Fits Stock 18" Wheels (Includes Brackets to Reuse Stock Parking Brake Calipers) 1996 2000 4W ST-40 355x32 ST-40 328x28

Hirkophoto said:
Mike,
Just curious, what kit did you go with for the front and rear. 4 piston or 6 in front? Also which wheels are you running and did you have any clearance issues?
Hirk

james11 · Sep 13, 2009

Not trying to hijack the thread, but figured I would ask a few questions as they are related to the topic. As it seems from a prior post, the 01-02 cars are in pretty good balance to begin with. I have a 02 GTS and was thinking of going with the SRTs on the fronts. Would my 02 front brakes (mounted on back) be a good match or would I be better off going with the 40mm upgrade on the rear? Also, what size are the rear calipers on my 02? If balance wouldn't be too bad with my stock rears, I might consider leaving my rears so I wouldn't need to mess with the e-brake.

Tom F&L GoR · Sep 13, 2009

James11, Your '02 rears are 43mm. The '01-02 ABS calipers are completely different style than the 92-2000 calipers, so you can't nor would you want to put the 40mm calipers on your car.

The ABS cars already have the larger master cylinder like the Gen 3 cars do (the reservoir is different) so going to larger calipers will be within the volume capabilities of your setup.

You can revisit which calipers to choose by looking for larger brake pad dimensions. You have ABS already, you have enough rear brake already, the advantage you are searching for is longer lasting, more consistent friction surfaces.

isanti · Sep 13, 2009

Wow, good to hear there is something good about the 02 GTS. Will save some time and money on the upgrading. This is James11. I am on my brother's computer.

Hirkophoto · Jan 6, 2010

Okay guys after many weeks of deliberation I decided on the Stoptech kit.
Six piston up front 4 piston in the rear. The kit was easy to install. With the help of Lance from the SoCal club and his lift and tools! We started at 7 am and we were doing the first test drive at about 11 am. The front was basically bolt on and was very smooth. All the supplied hoses and brackets fit perfect and went right on without any issue.