VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

[Shelby3]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

"The problem is, the NACA duct flows backward at some speeds. Some road racing Viper teams cover the NACA duct."

Joe117, Is this a quote from you? If it is the case, why would it not make sense to have a Vipair like product to insure adequate air flow during these conditions?

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I pointed out that the NACA duct doesn't work the way one might think, in order to illustrate that fluid dynamics often does not operate in an intuitive way.

What that means is, you can't look at an air intake or a streamlined shape and know for sure what it will do.

If the gen2 Vipers have a problem with intake air, and if the Vipair will do what it look's like it would do, then you are right. It would make sense to have one.

The problem is this,
1. We don't know that the gen2 Viper has an intake problem.
2. We don't know what the Vipair will do on the road, at speed.

This could be tested. It would be easy to test this.
Why haven't the Vipair guys tested the air temp with and without Vipair?
This test would be far cheaper than a dyno test.
It would not be subject to the outside factors that enter into a dyno test.

In answer to your question, no, at this point it would not make sense to have a Vipair like product to insure air flow.

 

[Shelby3]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I pointed out that the NACA duct doesn't work the way one might think, in order to illustrate that fluid dynamics often does not operate in an intuitive way.

What that means is, you can't look at an air intake or a streamlined shape and know for sure what it will do.

If the gen2 Vipers have a problem with intake air, and if the Vipair will do what it look's like it would do, then you are right. It would make sense to have one.

The problem is this,
1. We don't know that the gen2 Viper has an intake problem.
2. We don't know that the Vipair will do on the road, at speed.

This could be tested. It would be easy to test this.
Why haven't the Vipair guys tested the air temp with and without Vipair?
This test would be far cheaper than a dyno test.
It would not be subject to the outside factors that enter into a dyno test.

In answer to your question, no, at this point it would not make sense to have a Vipair like product to insure air flow.

Joe, I swear I read your response very carefully and I still don't understand your conclusion. You indicate that the NACA duct has an air flow problem at certain speeds and then go on to say that we don't know if the Gen II has an air intake problem. The Gen II has a NACA duct right? For the Vipair to overcome this problem it would not have to provide cooler air, it would just have to provide airflow when the NACA duct wasn't performing properly. Are you unsure whether the Vipair provides airflow at all? Forget about the air temperature test, it's not relevant to this issue, is it?

 

[Heysie]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

@Joe117, liquorice is a very popular Dutch product.

To add something to this trhead,
I was in Belgium and there was a race with a GTS-R. The Naca duct was covered, so they had "Vipair", but they also had to drive with restrictors in the inlet hoses (about 1.5 inch diameter), so mayby they use it as a sort of RAM intake??

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I thought that was clear enough but let me try it again.

Some racing teams have proven that the NACA duct doesn't always flow the way it should.

Does this mean that the car is not getting all the outside temp air it needs or all the air it needs? I don't know.

There may be plenty of air even if the duct isn't exactly right. We don't know.

In order to test that one would have to measure the air temp and pressure in the box compared to outside air.

I haven't seen that temperature data. I also don't know at what speed the NACA duct starts screwing up. If it happens at 120mph, then you are not going to gain anything below that by solving the "problem".

The fix for the NACA duct seems to be covering it.

I don't know if the Vipair provides any extra air flow.
I don't know if the Viper needs any extra air flow.

Russ already measured the pressure in the airbox, with and without the Vipair at speeds up to 120mph.

There was no change with or without Vipair.

This is proof that Vipair did not provide any extra air flow.

If the car had needed extra air flow there would have been a change in pressure when that extra flow was provided.

My comment on fluid dynamics is simply this,
You can't just look at something and visualize how fluid will react to it.
Simple as that.

By the way, how long would it have taken you to figure out that a golf ball would work better with all those dimples?

 

[Shelby3]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Simple logic says that if you state the NACA duct flows backwards at some speeds you cannot say that a Viper with a NACA duct does not have an intake problem. Nope, the dynamics of fluid logic won't let you contend that.

 

[Bugeater]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Hello everyone. Fantastic monday! Just got back from a weekend of Fullcourse road racing at VIR...

So, whats everyone having for lunch?

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Shelby3,
Here's a hypothetical example of a situation that might help explain what I'm saying.

Let's say you are driving your Viper down the street minding your own business. The fat guy in the car in front of you has a half gallon of milk and a big bag of Oreo cookies between his legs.
He pops the flat round paper cover off the milk and throws it out the window.
He starts to consume large quantities of milk and Oreos.

The paper disk flies with the wind and as luck would have it, get's sucked into your air intake.
It ends up flat against your air filter.
You now have 1.5 square inches less of filter area.

Do you want it there? Of course not.
Will it cause your filter to be partially blocked. Yes it will.
So you have an intake problem. I'll grant you that. It isn't as good as it was before your encounter with the fat guy.

Now here's the part that you might not like.
I'm not so sure that the blockage would cause any change in the performance of your Viper.

The filters and intake box opening may just be so big that this blockage will have no effect on the air your engine gets.

So what I'm saying is, If you fixed the problem by taking out the disk, you wouldn't see any increase in air flow to the engine.

Now relating this to Vipair, adding more flow by directing air from the front of the car may not help performance because the engine may very well get all the air it can use.

And when you say,
"Simple logic says that if you state the NACA duct flows backwards at some speeds you cannot say that a Viper with a NACA duct does not have an intake problem. Nope, the dynamics of fluid logic won't let you contend that."

You are not talking logic at all.

The fact that the NACA duct may flow backwards at some speed doesn't mean that it's causing any problem, even at 120 mph.
If the duct is flowing backwards it may mean that the air pressure behind the duct is greater than in front of it.
We just don't know.
How could we find out?

There is only one way to test this device and that is to measure the pressure and temperature in the box, with and without Vipair. This must be done while driving the car.

Read that last paragraph again, think about what I said.

Do you think that Vipair can work without bringing in more outside (cold) air, or increasing the pressure in the box?

Why don't the Vipair guys make this measurement?

 

[Roadkill]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

NOOOooooooooooo!!! let this damn thread die already!!!
Sheesh people.. I understood what you each said the first 5 times.. no need to repeat your views and stances an additional 4565322342332 times.

 

[vipah]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

joe,

Trying to talk logic to Shelly is like trying to teach a rock dance. Don't waste your time.

The testing should be done soon, and I am sure if it shows no advantage with the Vipair there will be some new claim why not.

If it shows some gain that would be great. I just don't think it will.

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Joe117,

To answer a few of your questions, the ones I feel are pertinent anyways.

The temp testing will be done, I am presently looking for another stock car to use for testing, and once I find one I will test for the airbox temp.

The air pressure testing was done without the rain drains plugged, how much pressure do think can escape from 3 - 1" holes Joe117?? It would be nice if you could not be so selective in your info, do not cherry pick your info just to make a point in your post.

I will also re dyno and perform a dozen dyno runs before and after install, as on this product the norm that has been adequate for all other products does not seem to be adequate on this product, again once I find a donor vehicle as mine is nowhere near stock enough to be relative for the average VIPAIR™ customer. See below.

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[Big Medicine]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

DUPE

 

[OutThere]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

It looks pretty cool though

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

You ask,
"how much pressure do think can escape from 3 - 1" holes Joe117??"
Is that supposed to make me feel foolish because I should have known that the drain holes must be plugged for Vipair to work?

Let me remind you that your claim of SOTP 50hp gain and all the dyno hp gain claims you have made were with the drain holes open.

Are you saying now that when you plug the holes it will work even better?

Must the holes be plugged for Vipair to work?

Then,
"To answer a few of your questions, the ones I feel are pertinent anyways."

What questions were not pertinent?


I'm glad to hear that you are setting up for the temperature measurements.

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Joe117,
The holes only have to be plugged in order to have a set pressure be read, I think that you would agree that air entering the airbox at speed would probably reduce any restriction caused by the airfilters, YES?

Actually the VIPAIR™ works better when the holes are plugged but I am not going to recommend this to anybody as it is a owner only decision as I would not want to be responsible for the damage to their car from excess water after a rain fall, if the above statement made you feel foolish then it probably should have.

Joe, I have modded my car and dynoed enough to know what a 50 Hp increase is and feels like, have you? ANSWER THIS QUESTION, IF YOU CAN!

 

[ronviper]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

EdmontonGTS, is that the Hennnseeey Carbon viper Airbox if so i have one and would like to see if you can adapt the Vipair to it.

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Ronviper, we have them modified for the H box and on a shelf ready to go. Just phone 1-877-486-4461 Ext 21and they will ship overnight to you. You just have to mention that you want the carbon fiber box version, we also have a rain baffle kit for the H box if you like reg $65. but only $40 if ordered with the VIPAIR™, here is a pic

You must be registered for see images

And some instructions that show how it goes in

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Thanks Ron

Steve

 

[scottgf]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Hello everyone. Fantastic monday! Just got back from a weekend of Fullcourse road racing at VIR...

So, whats everyone having for lunch?

I think we are having beans again....
(I love this thread)
Cheers,

 

[OutThere]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Gotta say that I have learned a lot in this thread. Some slams aside, very good contributions from both sides.

***** I have to just deal with my stock POS Gen1 intake though!

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

OutThere,
I am thinking of adding a GEn1 to my viper collection, when I do I promise I'll make a new airbox for ya!

 

[GR8_ASP]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

So OutThere what is wrong with the Gen I airbox? I had an aftermarket airbox (the rear portion) for a year and decided to return to stock as the gains were not obvious. The only aspect of the Gen I box that needs helps is the plastic deflector in the very front. It works well enough but is just a little flimsy. That piece is effectively what the Vipair is for the Gen II I believe.

 

[OutThere]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

My problem isn't with the performance on my airbox. I admit I couldn't care less about picking up 10-5 HP here and there. It just looks like crap. It's looks cheap; it's always coming lose; and like you said it's flimsy.

It's fine though. Not like it keeps me up at night. It's just when I look in at some of these after-market products I think each would look nice under my hood.

 

[OutThere]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

EdmontonGTS - Is that your car with the APEX engine work and the Roe SC?

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

OutThere,

Just the Apex valve covers, I like to buy from all the vendors that support the viper community, so I have a little bit from everybody, pistons and rods from Arrow, cam and heads from TNT, Roe Sc, wheels and brakes from Partsrack etc.

PS. Hey Joe, The valve covers alone added about 75 SOTP horsepower, I'd post a dyno sheet to prove this but I think I'll measure light refection off of these versus the stock valve covers to prove it instead! The finned tops also help to reduce underhood air turbulance!!

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

If you know what a 50hp increase feels like, why did you feel 50hp when your own dyno test said 16hp?

Your statements about the drain holes are new. You never mentioned the drain holes at all until Russ measured the pressure in the box, with and without Vipair, and found no change. These tests were done on the road at speeds up to 120mph. No change with Vipair.
Did it just slip your mind when you agreed to the test and sent him the Vipair?

Drain holes in the air box and their effect on the performance of Vipair should have been clear to you when you did the R&D for your product.

My question, should I feel foolish not knowing the holes need to be blocked for Vipair to give a pressure increase, was rhetorical.

If you knew that the holes would bleed off the pressure, why didn't you mention it when you sent the Vipair for Russ to test in front of the whole world?

You said,
"if the above statement made you feel foolish then it probably should have."

That sound's like a cheap dig at me.
I've been civil to you. I feel that this is the best way to discuss these technical questions.

If you feel that you don't want to keep things civil. please let me know.

 

[Shelby3]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

joe,

Trying to talk logic to Shelly is like trying to teach a rock dance. Don't waste your time.

The testing should be done soon, and I am sure if it shows no advantage with the Vipair there will be some new claim why not.

If it shows some gain that would be great. I just don't think it will.

"Teach a rock dance"

Another nonsensical post from Vipah's computer. Boy are you going to get your butt kicked when your dad gets home.

 

[vipah]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Shelly,

I didn't expect you to get it, you haven't gotten anything that anyone posts.

 

[Shelby3]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Shelly,

I didn't expect you to get it, you haven't gotten anything that anyone posts.

Wrong again Bean Boy! Yeah, I'm going to refer to you as Bean Boy from now on because I refuse to believe I'm conversing with an adult. Anyway Bean Boy, you're the only one I routinely don't understand on this thread and it's mainly because you spew your keyboard drool that has no correlation to anything on the thread. It's like you have a rolodex of insults that you spin and when it stops you spastically toss one in the middle of a thread and leave the world wondering if you might have just had a stroke. I'm waiting for the one where my mother wears combat boots. As far as you ever buying a Vipair, $hit people have spent less time selecting a heart transplant surgeon. Back to your sand box Bean Boy.

 

[OutThere]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

There's been less debate regarding $25,000 modifications. I love this thread!

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Shelby3,

To accurately depict VIPAH's mental age one should refer to him as "BEANIE BOY" as bean Boy sound much too intellectual and far to old given his behaviour and demeanor. Vipah, why are your keyboard keys sticky anyways?