ChoiceViper
Viper Owner
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
600th post!!!
600th post!!!
VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
- Thread starter GTS-R 001
- Start date
- Status
vipah
Enthusiast
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
600 I WIN!!!!
600 I WIN!!!!
ChoiceViper
Viper Owner
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
600?
600?
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
The problem is with the aerodynamics of the NACA duct, Check with Joe117, he will explain it to you.
Shelly,
Let me try to understand your view of "what is good enough for the GTSR guys....".
Without the details of why they did what you are comparing apples and oranges. Read the article, different engine, different body, different engine placement etc.. So you point to the fact (that isn't mentioned in the article) that they use a different induction system as proof Vipair works. Well since they changes everything else, how is that proof that doing something remotely similar on a stock car is relevant.
Boy are you one confused pup.
The problem is with the aerodynamics of the NACA duct, Check with Joe117, he will explain it to you.
vipah
Enthusiast
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Argghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!
You got me by a few seconds!
Damn you ChoiceViper!
Argghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!
You got me by a few seconds!
Damn you ChoiceViper!
ChoiceViper
Viper Owner
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
mine...
mine...
ChoiceViper
Viper Owner
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Whaddo I get? Whaddo I get?
Whaddo I get? Whaddo I get?
vipah
Enthusiast
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
You were really lucky, you don't get a Vipair, but you do get:
OK.....This thread reaches 1000 post we will give a set of side louvers and side splitters to the lucky# 1000 and who knows maybe even a VIPAIR
This would of course be a contingency contest.The winner must be a vipair customer.We are also going to give the lucky # 600 a set of our new 4" stainless angle cut rolled tips no contingency needed.No "bumping" allowed.May as well have some fun with this thread
This was posted a on page 19 of the thread by Vipermed 97,01. You just have to collect.
You were really lucky, you don't get a Vipair, but you do get:
OK.....This thread reaches 1000 post we will give a set of side louvers and side splitters to the lucky# 1000 and who knows maybe even a VIPAIR
This would of course be a contingency contest.The winner must be a vipair customer.We are also going to give the lucky # 600 a set of our new 4" stainless angle cut rolled tips no contingency needed.No "bumping" allowed.May as well have some fun with this thread
This was posted a on page 19 of the thread by Vipermed 97,01. You just have to collect.
ChoiceViper
Viper Owner
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Was he serious?
Did I actually win exhaust tips? No B.S.?
If so, WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOO!!!! 
[tear in eyes]I've never won anything in my life.[tear in eyes]
Oh wait.... Do I have to buy a Vipair first?
Dave
Was he serious?
Did I actually win exhaust tips? No B.S.?
If so, WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
[tear in eyes]I've never won anything in my life.[tear in eyes]
Oh wait.... Do I have to buy a Vipair first?
Dave
Vipermed 97.01
Enthusiast
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Dave
Congrads.You won a new set of awesome looking tips for your viper.No need to purchase anything,just give me your shipping info and your tips will go out monday
Was he serious?
Did I actually win exhaust tips? No B.S.?
If so, WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
[tear in eyes]I've never won anything in my life.[tear in eyes]
Oh wait.... Do I have to buy a Vipair first?
Dave
Dave
Congrads.You won a new set of awesome looking tips for your viper.No need to purchase anything,just give me your shipping info and your tips will go out monday
scottgf
Viper Owner
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Damm I missed 600.... But what a cool deal Vipermed giving out stuff just because of this silly thread that has taken on a life of its own......
BTW, whats for dinner??
Cheers,
Was he serious?
Did I actually win exhaust tips? No B.S.?
If so, WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
[tear in eyes]I've never won anything in my life.[tear in eyes]
Oh wait.... Do I have to buy a Vipair first?
Dave
Dave
Congrads.You won a new set of awesome looking tips for your viper.No need to purchase anything,just give me your shipping info and your tips will go out monday
Damm I missed 600.... But what a cool deal Vipermed giving out stuff just because of this silly thread that has taken on a life of its own......
BTW, whats for dinner??
Cheers,
ChoiceViper
Viper Owner
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Thanks Vipermed!! I sent a PM.
That is VERY cool!!
BBQ ribs for dinner.
Thanks Vipermed!! I sent a PM.
That is VERY cool!!
BBQ ribs for dinner.
Vipermed 97.01
Enthusiast
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
We sure have some great people here,this is the pm i recieved from Dave"choice viper"
From: ChoiceViper
Hey Scott,
Thanks for the exhaust tips prize. You guys are the greatest.
If you don't mind though I am going to have to graciously(sp?) decline. I would like to donate anything you might have spent in my behalf to the charity of your choice. Maybe Mumfords fund or something of that nature.
Thanks again and keep up the good work man.
Dave
ChoiceViper
We will donate $100 to the Mumford fund in your name.Class act
We sure have some great people here,this is the pm i recieved from Dave"choice viper"
From: ChoiceViper
Hey Scott,
Thanks for the exhaust tips prize. You guys are the greatest.
If you don't mind though I am going to have to graciously(sp?) decline. I would like to donate anything you might have spent in my behalf to the charity of your choice. Maybe Mumfords fund or something of that nature.
Thanks again and keep up the good work man.
Dave
ChoiceViper
We will donate $100 to the Mumford fund in your name.Class act
vipah
Enthusiast
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Way to go Dave!
Hats off to Vipermed for the cool gift/donation.
Way to go Dave!
Hats off to Vipermed for the cool gift/donation.
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Like it or not, I did another temp test today.
Ambient temps were about the same as last time: 56deg.
This time I placed the temp probe right up close to the left hand K&N (not directly behind the NACA duct like my first test), with the probe about an inch off the floor of the airbox.
Results? THE SAME
Temperatures at 50mph stayed in the 54-56 degree range with the access panel in or out. In fact, in both tests, there seemed to be a decided tendency for the temps to be 2 deg lower with the access panel in place.
This is just one test, at a steady state speed, measuring temperatures on a given day. It's not a road race test, drag race test, heat-soak test, gas station ***** test, or anything else.
In 56 degree weather, at 50mph, there appears to be no heating of the airbox area as DC builds the car.
Did you really expect any rising radiator heat to just linger around and be absorbed into the phenolic plastic airbox at speed? Or somehow flow forward while the car is going 50mph into the mouth of the airbox?
AhhhHHHHhhh-ahh-AHH..
NAH
Like it or not, I did another temp test today.
Ambient temps were about the same as last time: 56deg.
This time I placed the temp probe right up close to the left hand K&N (not directly behind the NACA duct like my first test), with the probe about an inch off the floor of the airbox.
Results? THE SAME
Temperatures at 50mph stayed in the 54-56 degree range with the access panel in or out. In fact, in both tests, there seemed to be a decided tendency for the temps to be 2 deg lower with the access panel in place.
This is just one test, at a steady state speed, measuring temperatures on a given day. It's not a road race test, drag race test, heat-soak test, gas station ***** test, or anything else.
In 56 degree weather, at 50mph, there appears to be no heating of the airbox area as DC builds the car.
Did you really expect any rising radiator heat to just linger around and be absorbed into the phenolic plastic airbox at speed? Or somehow flow forward while the car is going 50mph into the mouth of the airbox?
AhhhHHHHhhh-ahh-AHH..
NAH
vipah
Enthusiast
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Thanks for the additional tests FE.
I think they are pretty conclusive, but I am sure there will be some that disagree.
So Shelly, what does your logic say about this test? Please try and come up with an original thought and don't just cut and paste the old "if it is good enough for GTSR....". I can still get you some magic HP beans.
Thanks for the additional tests FE.
I think they are pretty conclusive, but I am sure there will be some that disagree.
So Shelly, what does your logic say about this test? Please try and come up with an original thought and don't just cut and paste the old "if it is good enough for GTSR....". I can still get you some magic HP beans.
Big Medicine
Enthusiast
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Good enough for me; someone lock this please. It is wasting space. Unless the temperature probe is faulty, TOUCHE.
Good enough for me; someone lock this please. It is wasting space. Unless the temperature probe is faulty, TOUCHE.
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Vipahairhead: I have never thought the Vipair resulted in cooler air into the air box so this test is not relevant. I do believe that the Vipair overcomes the aero issues with the NACA duct. As far as me using the GTSR team reference, I guess it's the same logic YOU used in buying your tubes/filters. I believe your rational was Woodhouse told you they worked.
Vipahairhead: I have never thought the Vipair resulted in cooler air into the air box so this test is not relevant. I do believe that the Vipair overcomes the aero issues with the NACA duct. As far as me using the GTSR team reference, I guess it's the same logic YOU used in buying your tubes/filters. I believe your rational was Woodhouse told you they worked.
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Actually 4-6 degrees is right around what was estimated. I believe a 10 degree maximum delta was estimated for steady state driving at speed. And the faster you go the lower the delta. Note that 4-6 degree delta can provide a measurable hp increase. The benefit may even be better at slow city driving when underhood air temperatures are very high and the air flow is limited. But after just a few seconds at higher speed that heat will be behind you (literally).
Quote from an earlier Vipair thread http://vca2.viperclub.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB14&Number=308204&Forum=UBB14&Words=Vipair&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=250&Old=6months&Main=307213&Search=true#Post308204
Actually 4-6 degrees is right around what was estimated. I believe a 10 degree maximum delta was estimated for steady state driving at speed. And the faster you go the lower the delta. Note that 4-6 degree delta can provide a measurable hp increase. The benefit may even be better at slow city driving when underhood air temperatures are very high and the air flow is limited. But after just a few seconds at higher speed that heat will be behind you (literally).
Quote from an earlier Vipair thread http://vca2.viperclub.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB14&Number=308204&Forum=UBB14&Words=Vipair&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=250&Old=6months&Main=307213&Search=true#Post308204
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
I think that temp data is significant. I donmt know about you fellas but my car gets up to operating temp pretty quick. I would guess with the amount of time it took FE to get somewhere to go 50mph and stop and adjust things a bit, the engine bay got as hot as it was going to get.
Also, not meant as a slam at all, but if you are traveling at lower speeds I'm sure there is a much better chance of hotter air entering the plenum but it probably also means you arent racing right? So it wouldn't matter.
I think that temp data is significant. I donmt know about you fellas but my car gets up to operating temp pretty quick. I would guess with the amount of time it took FE to get somewhere to go 50mph and stop and adjust things a bit, the engine bay got as hot as it was going to get.
Also, not meant as a slam at all, but if you are traveling at lower speeds I'm sure there is a much better chance of hotter air entering the plenum but it probably also means you arent racing right? So it wouldn't matter.
vipah
Enthusiast
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Shelly,
So what is the theory that you subscribe to that will increase HP with the Vipair? The manufacturers claim was for colder air into the intake. But it sounds like you think that the NACA duct just doesnt provide enough air, which all the dyno tests have proven to be incorrect.
My rationale for the filters and tubes was combined. The filters have signficant data that shows increased flow over stock filters. The tubes were very cheap and some long time viper experts recommended them. If I were driving a GTSR on the steet I might just blindly follow their lead, but I am driving a car that is quite different.
Shelly,
So what is the theory that you subscribe to that will increase HP with the Vipair? The manufacturers claim was for colder air into the intake. But it sounds like you think that the NACA duct just doesnt provide enough air, which all the dyno tests have proven to be incorrect.
My rationale for the filters and tubes was combined. The filters have signficant data that shows increased flow over stock filters. The tubes were very cheap and some long time viper experts recommended them. If I were driving a GTSR on the steet I might just blindly follow their lead, but I am driving a car that is quite different.
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Vipah and 2FAST4U,
The obvious thing that you fail to understand is that there are variances in engine bay temperatures at different speeds as surounding factors vary, at 10 mph there is quite likely less airflow to help clear the engine bay of heat, same with at 20 mph but quite probably and logically not as much, 30 mph a little more airflow and less heat as well.
WHY WAS THE TEST REPORTS ONLY DONE AT 50MPH??
What happens at 60 mph, we know from reports from the GTSR team that the airbox depressurization is in full force at 120MPH.
We know that teh VIPAIR™ HELPS INCREASE HORSE POWER ON A DYNO.
This is all just such a joke, someone tests the temps at only 50 mph, Well I drive at varying speeds not 50. why not pick a speed we all drive at to test like 60 mph or 30 mph, What a Joke.
Big Medicine, why don't you just go look at something else if this is so unbearable.
Vipah and 2FAST4U,
The obvious thing that you fail to understand is that there are variances in engine bay temperatures at different speeds as surounding factors vary, at 10 mph there is quite likely less airflow to help clear the engine bay of heat, same with at 20 mph but quite probably and logically not as much, 30 mph a little more airflow and less heat as well.
WHY WAS THE TEST REPORTS ONLY DONE AT 50MPH??
What happens at 60 mph, we know from reports from the GTSR team that the airbox depressurization is in full force at 120MPH.
We know that teh VIPAIR™ HELPS INCREASE HORSE POWER ON A DYNO.
This is all just such a joke, someone tests the temps at only 50 mph, Well I drive at varying speeds not 50. why not pick a speed we all drive at to test like 60 mph or 30 mph, What a Joke.
Big Medicine, why don't you just go look at something else if this is so unbearable.
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Back off buddy,
I'm nor for or against you, and don't group me in with your "enemy". All I said was if FE tested the temp and it was the same as ambient it is getting us closer to a conclusion about the product. I'm glad your product is getting all of this attention, f*ck I helped it by posting here, but don't start on my ass. I haven't said a damn thing that was out of line, even though clearly you should have done this testing yourself, so cool it.
Let's just see how Russ' dyno tests turn out.
Back off buddy,
I'm nor for or against you, and don't group me in with your "enemy". All I said was if FE tested the temp and it was the same as ambient it is getting us closer to a conclusion about the product. I'm glad your product is getting all of this attention, f*ck I helped it by posting here, but don't start on my ass. I haven't said a damn thing that was out of line, even though clearly you should have done this testing yourself, so cool it.
Let's just see how Russ' dyno tests turn out.
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Gary,
Sorry bud, I misread your post and then grouped you with Dipah, my mistake. Tell you what, I'll trade you a VIPAIR™ for one of your exhaust surrounds.
Steve
Gary,
Sorry bud, I misread your post and then grouped you with Dipah, my mistake. Tell you what, I'll trade you a VIPAIR™ for one of your exhaust surrounds.
Steve
vipah
Enthusiast
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Eddy,
As usual you just choose to disagree with all the facts that are mounting.
Dyno tests have proven no gain, temp tests prove no advantage, and on it goes.
Testing at more speeds would be a great thing to do, and I am sure the results will continue to prove that Vipair does nothing.
You still have yet to deliver the testing that the GTSR team did on the stock airbox. I would really like to read it.
Thanks, and sorry you are in denial.
Eddy,
As usual you just choose to disagree with all the facts that are mounting.
Dyno tests have proven no gain, temp tests prove no advantage, and on it goes.
Testing at more speeds would be a great thing to do, and I am sure the results will continue to prove that Vipair does nothing.
You still have yet to deliver the testing that the GTSR team did on the stock airbox. I would really like to read it.
Thanks, and sorry you are in denial.
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Steve,
I didn't meant for that to sound all bent out of shape. No problem, and you have a deal. I have a few plates I am finishing up right now so as soon as they are ready I'll shoot you an email. I am planning on going to the dyno next week so if I get it installed in time I will test it as well.
Steve,
I didn't meant for that to sound all bent out of shape. No problem, and you have a deal. I have a few plates I am finishing up right now so as soon as they are ready I'll shoot you an email. I am planning on going to the dyno next week so if I get it installed in time I will test it as well.
joe117
Enthusiast
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Edmonton,
The temp testing was done at 50mph.
You seem to believe that the results would be different at other speeds.
We don't have all the data but we do have some data. Let's use what we have.
Let's see if we can agree on at least one thing.
We have data that shows Vipair produces no gain at 50mph. The intake air temp is the same as outside air temp without Vipair. You can't improve on that.
Vipair provides no gain at 50mph.
Can we agree on that?
Edmonton,
The temp testing was done at 50mph.
You seem to believe that the results would be different at other speeds.
We don't have all the data but we do have some data. Let's use what we have.
Let's see if we can agree on at least one thing.
We have data that shows Vipair produces no gain at 50mph. The intake air temp is the same as outside air temp without Vipair. You can't improve on that.
Vipair provides no gain at 50mph.
Can we agree on that?
joe117
Enthusiast
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Edmonton,
I read the article you posted about the race team Vipers.
I didn't see anything showing that a Vipair like device would solve any of their problems.
Please quote the part that you wanted us to see.
As I see it, you have almost no test data showing Vipair to be an improvement over the stock intake.
You are now confroted by temperature, dyno and pressure testing, done by people not connected to your operation. They find no gains with Vipair.
You continue to make claims with nothing to back them up other than a couple of dyno runs.
Do you plan to tell us how all these measurements can be wrong?
Edmonton,
I read the article you posted about the race team Vipers.
I didn't see anything showing that a Vipair like device would solve any of their problems.
Please quote the part that you wanted us to see.
As I see it, you have almost no test data showing Vipair to be an improvement over the stock intake.
You are now confroted by temperature, dyno and pressure testing, done by people not connected to your operation. They find no gains with Vipair.
You continue to make claims with nothing to back them up other than a couple of dyno runs.
Do you plan to tell us how all these measurements can be wrong?
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!
Joe,
Betwween you and Dipah I for the life of me cannot determine which one of you is more unreasonable. All of a sudden on this product only, dyno tests are not what is used to show a performance gain. All of a sudden, the requirement is now temp testing at 1 speed by I might add a guy who in the cold air intake thread already determined that he did not like the vipair ( nice unbiased reporting here ), airbox pressure testing without the rain drains capped. Tell me joe, how do these third party tests show that there is no performance gain?
Tell me Joe, why did chrysler eliminate the NACA duct on the Gen3? Why is the air brought in from the exact same location as the vipair does? Why is the hood scoop on the Gen3 a fake scoop that directs what little air it does bring in directly at a blocked area in the Gen3 airbox? Why is all this Joe? Is it a conspiracy? Are they all against you and Dipah?
no joe they are not all against you, it is simply an improvement to help bring in cooler air and create more power at ALL speeds Joe.
Steve
2FAST4U its a deal, when are you going back to the strip, this is where the Vipair™ will reall shine on your car. I'll even promo you the VIPAIR™ for some good strip #'s, We have had about 6 commitments from people going to strip test the VIPAIR™ but no one has done so yet.
Joe here is a quote from the old cold air intake thread from Bob Woodhouse "Intellectuals and nerds, an impressive group authoring this thread. Take this guy Adkins seriously. He has his stuff in a pile (Boeing engineer and knows aero). Three years ago he was instrumental in guiding several of us through air intake questions. In fact I think he was partially responsible for the test mule that Herb Helbig (Viper Team)was driving around of a GTS with no front Naca duct in it. What Dave pointed out is that the air flow characteristics over the front of the car (ie at the NACA duct) goes something like this: Below 80 mph; no difference ambient pressure. At 80 to 120 or so, a negative pressure is likely, at 120 and up some positive pressure may exist. To cut to the chase, we eliminated the naca duct all together on our GTS race car, used the forward half of the early (GEN I) intake air box and brought pressurized air from in front of the radiater. In other words, the NACA duct looks neat but the better system was on the earlier car where you can get cool air from the highest pressure area of the car, the grille opening. Major guesswork here but Dave calculated a 12 to ? hp gain in the 150 mph range based on the mildly pressurized air. Now that all of my competitors know this, you guys owe me, er no Dave."
Joe the article above only reflects that the GTSR team new there was a problem with the NACA duct opening and then the NACA duct was eliminated from their race cars. Joe do I really have to play connect the dots with you? Should I use a crayon and make sure to not go too fast for you to keep up?
Joe,
Betwween you and Dipah I for the life of me cannot determine which one of you is more unreasonable. All of a sudden on this product only, dyno tests are not what is used to show a performance gain. All of a sudden, the requirement is now temp testing at 1 speed by I might add a guy who in the cold air intake thread already determined that he did not like the vipair ( nice unbiased reporting here ), airbox pressure testing without the rain drains capped. Tell me joe, how do these third party tests show that there is no performance gain?
Tell me Joe, why did chrysler eliminate the NACA duct on the Gen3? Why is the air brought in from the exact same location as the vipair does? Why is the hood scoop on the Gen3 a fake scoop that directs what little air it does bring in directly at a blocked area in the Gen3 airbox? Why is all this Joe? Is it a conspiracy? Are they all against you and Dipah?
no joe they are not all against you, it is simply an improvement to help bring in cooler air and create more power at ALL speeds Joe.
Steve
2FAST4U its a deal, when are you going back to the strip, this is where the Vipair™ will reall shine on your car. I'll even promo you the VIPAIR™ for some good strip #'s, We have had about 6 commitments from people going to strip test the VIPAIR™ but no one has done so yet.
Joe here is a quote from the old cold air intake thread from Bob Woodhouse "Intellectuals and nerds, an impressive group authoring this thread. Take this guy Adkins seriously. He has his stuff in a pile (Boeing engineer and knows aero). Three years ago he was instrumental in guiding several of us through air intake questions. In fact I think he was partially responsible for the test mule that Herb Helbig (Viper Team)was driving around of a GTS with no front Naca duct in it. What Dave pointed out is that the air flow characteristics over the front of the car (ie at the NACA duct) goes something like this: Below 80 mph; no difference ambient pressure. At 80 to 120 or so, a negative pressure is likely, at 120 and up some positive pressure may exist. To cut to the chase, we eliminated the naca duct all together on our GTS race car, used the forward half of the early (GEN I) intake air box and brought pressurized air from in front of the radiater. In other words, the NACA duct looks neat but the better system was on the earlier car where you can get cool air from the highest pressure area of the car, the grille opening. Major guesswork here but Dave calculated a 12 to ? hp gain in the 150 mph range based on the mildly pressurized air. Now that all of my competitors know this, you guys owe me, er no Dave."
Joe the article above only reflects that the GTSR team new there was a problem with the NACA duct opening and then the NACA duct was eliminated from their race cars. Joe do I really have to play connect the dots with you? Should I use a crayon and make sure to not go too fast for you to keep up?
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