Viper Crash on Mulholland Highway near Los Angeles, California

[Janni]

So - how do we prevent these tragedies from occurring?

It's one thing to utilize the COOL program wherein Dodge gives new car buys a free year in the VCA - but let's face it - because of the privacy laws - it's too slow to help the first timers.

There's a hang tag that comes with the ACR that I was supposed to sign where the dealer has been instructed to go over the "race ready" attributes and dangers of the ACR, as well as the tire specifications (I'll scan it) - but no such thing exists for "normal" Vipers.

And - that only would cover NEW cars - what about the used car market wherein the sellers have even LESS motivation to discuss the potential of the car - and - the "old, hard tire scenario"?

As a group - do we post a sticky in each forum discussing these things - with links to stories like this? Do we link to it each and every time someone says "thinking about a Viper"? We've tried to warn folks and we've seen that fail sometimes - as they come back and admit they were snakebitten. Is this ENOUGH to break through the "I am an excellent driver" mentality that makes people think they are man (or woman) enough to hop in and toss the Viper around like other cars?

Do we recommend the parking lot test of - 1) nail throttle in a straight line (NOT near any curbs / poles, etc) and then 2) try again with some steering input before you try anything like it on the street?

Or - do we proposed "driver break in" procedures similar to what Herb outlined for engine break in procedures? i.e. no full throttle starts, first 2 hundred miles under 2500 RPM and under 80 MPH, then gradually increase RPM range over first 1000 miles?

How do we get this car's potential in front of these buyers - of both new and used cars?

I hate reading this stuff - families are devastated. And at the same time - I don't want this reflecting poorly on the Viper itself - because handled correctly (i.e. Nurburgring) it has tons of grip and is very safe.

 

[10BamBam01]

I lost a dear friend this summer to a motorcycle accident. I know that many of us also ride motorcycles. For some reason I feel compelled to share it with you after reading this thread. My friend Todd was a part of our group that rides together. We are a family and, in some ways, even closer to each other than we are with our blood relatives. Our family will never be the same after losing him.

I've come to sense that VCA is similar in that we share a common passion for our vehicles and enjoy driving them with each other. I deal with my grief in my own way ... usually through music. I wrote the song at the link below as a tribute to my fallen brother and anyone that's been lost on a motorcycle. It's called Biker Heaven. Give it a listen, if you wish. Perhaps I'll record another version called Viper Heaven.

[media]http://www.247rocks.com/audio/Biker%20Heaven.mp3[/media]

 

[WILDASP]

So - how do we prevent these tragedies from occurring?.......

How do we get this car's potential in front of these buyers - of both new and used cars?

I hate reading this stuff - families are devastated. And at the same time - I don't want this reflecting poorly on the Viper itself - because handled correctly (i.e. Nurburgring) it has tons of grip and is very safe.

Janni, some great thoughts in that post, and that's exactly what we need! These are all great ideas, and I think we need (at least) a sticky on ALL of that. At a minimum, I wish every newbie to the Viper could at least see an in-car video of a Viper bite, so they can see just how fast it happens; that might cause some of them (and maybe some "old hands" too) to think. I also like the idea of a link to this thread when the "thinking about a Viper" questions come up.

The bottom line is, we need to change some attitudes out there, and these are ideas that I really think would help. Hopefully some others will chime in with more, and we can discuss how best to implement these.

You're right - the Viper is a very safe car when handled properly. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be getting back in one. The problems usually appear to be between the seat and the steering wheel and pedals.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

So - how do we prevent these tragedies from occurring?

They can only be reduced, they can't be prevented short of cancelling the Viper all together. And if that happened some other car would take the lead in fatalities and accidents and then what, cancel the next "dangerous" sportscar too? I'm not trying to be amusing here but hey, somebody has to come in first in the stats and as with most performance stats the Viper also comes in first in the tragedy category.

Load a car up with all the balloons and nannies (I know the discussion is looming) in the world, but some folks are still destined to find a way to defeat them. Sorry if it sounds cold but it is reality and those people should not spoil the fun and freedom for the rest of us.

 

[WILDASP]

Chuck, I know we can't prevent them all; nothing can, not technology, not anything we say or do here; BUT, if having a sticky on viper safety in one or more sections here prevents even one tragedy like this one, I for one think it's worth the effort. Janni has put some good points out there for this. Hopefully you and other experienced people here can come up with some additions/other helpful suggestions.

 

[eucharistos]

On Mulholland Dr, moving to the right may not be an option. Unless you want to go over a cliff. If the oncoming driver looks as if he is going to pass the midline of your car, moving to the left makes perfect sense. What a sad, crazy, and f'ed up world of litigation we live in. But Obama says tort reform is unecessary

for those unfamiliar with Mulholland Dr

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1FxDu0EFjA[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tm0pwE35WQ[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mUOPPHxUso[/media]

many people set up their cars just of Mulholland Dr, twisties, 300 degree turns ....

prayers for the families

 

[WILDASP]

THAT is so wrong on so many levels.......

 

[brynwill]

Jodi (the wife and mother) is a good friend of mine..she buries her daughter today..and prays that her husband Doug can recover..as well as the driver of the SUV..this tragedy is insurmountable..I'm wearing lilac today (for the funeral)..Jessica's favorite color..Doug has always been a larger than life personality..and the Viper was his dream car..this was just a terrible accident..a terrible moment that has changed many lives forever..send out prayers and good wishes for all who have been devastated by this nightmare..

 

[Janni]

Prayers for you - brynwill - and the entire extended family of Jessica and Doug.

We will work to try to prevent something like this happening again.

 

[Solid Red 98]

This strikes so close to home because we drive Vipers and know how they can behave or not. For those of us who have entertained ourselves,our children, friends, and loved ones by demonstrating the raw performance characteristics of our cars, it would be an understatement to say: be careful out there. We know the rawness of these machines and have lived to talk about it. The question is how many times on the street do we need to prove and feel it? I am finding more and more contentment in small demonstrations and personal reminders of the car's awesomeness. For the most part I am satisfied to just look cool, and know it like an inside joke that only a few can really appreciate. The more we drive and knowthese cars the more liberties we might be prone to take--despite a healthy respect for them. (probably explains why so many experienced owners get fang marks) It doesn't just effect the newbies.

The variables of the street are almost incalculable. Short anecdote: On a quasi leisurely jaunt recently, traversing a familiar stretch of road that is straight, smooth and wide I felt like a quick 3rd gear pull. Shifting into fourth and feeling fine, I got that strange sensation of the rear stepping out to the right. I was able to correct it, but at that point, one false move or brain fade, would have easily put me into oncoming traffic and instantaneous tragedy. It can happen so quick and it got me thinking about becoming too comfy with the serpent. I hate that it takes such harsh lessons to remind us of these things. As was said on this forum before, Vipers bring smiles when smiles are hard to come by, but they are equally capable of the opposite. My thoughts and prayers go out to all of us as we buckle up in our machines. Additionally, my heart goes out to all effected by this accident--a very sad situation. May they cope the best they can.

 

[WILDASP]

Prayers for you - brynwill - and the entire extended family of Jessica and Doug.

We will work to try to prevent something like this happening again.

Let me add to that my prayers for all involved, and their families.

Janni, we seriously need to go forward with those sticky and link ideas you posted; How do we do that? Talk with the mods and admins next, or what?

 

[viperbilliam]

I know all too well how this could have happened and feel very lucky I was more fortunate then Doug with the 3 snakebites I had. Doug, if he recovers, might hate the Viper unless maybe someone told him about the advice all of you posted here. It would have been good if he had experienced the snake bite in more forgiving conditions to know how vicious it can be when it starts coming around. I don't know that a nanny could control it that well without killing what the car is about. How do you tell ALL Viper drivers to properly warm the tires - is it in the owner's manual which would be a good place to start but then many people don't read their manuals. I had the SRT experience which is a good start but it didn't prevent the bites I had. The warm tire/weather thing took a while to sink in and I didn't get that message until a post in this VCA told me about it. I also realized the Quaife was a good investment to help me enjoy the car with more control but not everyone needs to spend $3-4K to drive this car safely. But it did provide the "traction control" I felt the car needed. That photo above - is the scariest scene I have ever seen. I feel terrible for Doug.

 

[TrackAire]

I think a sticky would be helpful, especially for new owners.

I'll call this type of street driving EOS or "Exhibition Of Speed" just to make things simple, which to me includes speeding, racing, showing off, donuts, drag racing, getting on it, etc.

Horsepower is not the issue here...that Miata a%%hole in the Youtube video, what does he have, maybe 150 hp if modified? ANY car can be used to commit EOS. It has nothing to do with the Viper, it is driver choice to commit EOS. Hell, I was a lot more dangerous 20 years ago in my Acura Integera on the street than I am today in a 600 hp Viper.

What the sticky has to emphasize is since the Viper has tons of torque and horsepower, the margin for error on the street is very minimal compared to most other vehicles. Things happen twice as fast in a Viper versus a stock Miata (just compare 0 to 60 times). A road lane is only about 12 feet wide versus a race track which may be over 3 times that wide. The sticky has to warn Viper drivers that even accelerating on the street in a straight line under certain conditions can be dangerous. It would have to be written in a way not to make the Viper look dangerous from a negligence viewpoint, if not, Dodge may not be happy.

George

 

[Janni]

New thread started - welcome the input.

Hope we can never had another thread like this again.

Prayers for all here.

 

[CitySnake]

If we're seriously considering the production of some kind of "sticker notice" I'd seriously suggest (despite the gruesomeness) it include photos of crashed Vipers and some (non-intruding) generic list of same. A simple serious "note" is not going to get anyone's attention. A 5 page "brochure" with several photos of carnage, a list of 200 crashed Vipers while still in their break in period titled "DON'T LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOU!" might get an owners attention.

Oops, our posts crossed Janni. I'll copy this onto your new thread and "stick" it.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

BUT, if having a sticky on viper safety in one or more sections here prevents even one tragedy like this one, I for one think it's worth the effort.

I hope you read this in the unoffensive tone in which I mean it, but that "saves just one life it's worth it" mindset is the leading contributor to the pussification of America and the reason so many laws have taken our freedoms and personal responsibility away.

Granted, a sticky is no big deal and if the board wants to put one up then so be it. But the Viper has 600hp. Everybody who wants a Viper knows it has 600hp. If that isn't enough warning for folks to watch their *** then they are doomed to Darwin and nobody can save them.

I don't mean to be disrespectful in any way, but it appears some cold hard reality needs to be said.

Again, condolences to all involved and please folks, TRACK IT!

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

A 5 page "brochure" with several photos of carnage, a list of 200 crashed Vipers while still in their break in period titled "DON'T LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOU!" might get an owners attention.

That will get attention alright. The same attention the Corvair got.

I think we're beginning to blow this all out of proportion. It was an accident caused by a driver's poor judgment (no disrespect meant). It happens every day with all makes and models.

Sportscars ignite a persona in people. Why don't we just ban all sportscars? Sound ridiculous? Not really.

 

[plumcrazy]

Id like to hear the stats on just how many EOS's end up in death. i doubt its nearly enough to worry about.

like chuck said...

the pussification of America and the reason so many laws have taken our freedoms and personal responsibility away

is out of control. but i dont agree so much with chuck when it comes to tracking.

 

[eucharistos]

I hope you read this in the unoffensive tone in which I mean it, but that "saves just one life it's worth it" mindset is the leading contributor to the p***cation of America and the reason so many laws have taken our freedoms and personal responsibility away.

I don't mean to be disrespectful in any way, but it appears some cold hard reality needs to be said.

Again, condolences to all involved

one more what chuck said,

we all know cars can be made 100% "safe" but none of us is willing to pay the price

feel so sorry for the families

 

[CitySnake]

the pussification of America

Somehow, this has to to be presented to Bartlett's for publication. It's just pure poetry! PUSSIFICATION!!!

That will get attention alright. The same attention the Corvair got.

I think we're beginning to blow this all out of proportion. It was an accident caused by a driver's poor judgment (no disrespect meant). It happens every day with all makes and models.

Sportscars ignite a persona in people. Why don't we just ban all sportscars? Sound ridiculous? Not really.

You've got a point (though there are a whole mess of other issues involved in the demise of the corvair .. and none of them involved 600 HP). Some of my suggestions come from frustration. I don't want to get specific, but when I look around at some Viper owners, I must admit to being surprised that they haven't already partially paralyzed themselves just getting into the car.

It's the image of an accident involving a young daughter that's just getting to me.

 

[Fast Viper Dan]

You can be extra careful and extra smart while having extra fun too...

NARRA Online
Welcome to the Premier Racing and Driving School, Skip Barber Racing School
Bondurant Racing School of High Performance Driving

Something every Viper owner (every sports car owner for that matter) should do twice a year.

What Chuck said!


All delivery's made at the NARA event of your choice. (for first time Viper owners)

 

[WILDASP]

I hope you read this in the unoffensive tone in which I mean it, but that "saves just one life it's worth it" mindset is the leading contributor to the pussification of America and the reason so many laws have taken our freedoms and personal responsibility away.

Chuck, I don't read that as offensive at all. As a matter of fact, I don't think we fundamentally disagree. We have to strike a balance here, between getting people to (A) respect the power of the Viper and drive accordingly, (B) getting them to understand that the only place the car can be fully appreciated/enjoyed safely is in a controlled environment (read track), and maintaining the truth that the Viper, properly driven, is a very safe car, which it is.

The social climate you allude to in America today is a thing I have watched (with great dismay) develop. It has now spawned a couple of generations conditioned to expect a risk-free existence, in which mistakes do not have real consequences. I would go so far as to say that is the major reason we are having this discussion in the first place; we have a lot of people out there thinking it "can't happen" to them, because they assume someone or something is going to save them from the consequences of their own mistakes. Of course, it doesn't work that way, in either life in general, or in a high performance car. Too many people want instant gratification, not realizing that while you can buy the tool for it, the skill to use it has to be developed over time.

To use an analogy from another sport, you can buy the same gear a downhill ski racer uses, but while that may make you look and feel like a world class skier, it doesn't make you one, and if you fail to remember that you're pretty sure to end up with a broken leg (or worse). The equipment worked just fine; the user did not. Likewise, you can buy a world-class race car, but if you think that in itself makes you a world-class driver...well, we all know what happens next, and the problem is not that the car failed, but that the driver did. As in everything else in life, when "wannabe" gets ahead of "can-do" bad things follow.

So, what we are trying to do (and it is walking a fine line), is to "scare 'em straight", in the hope that may get the message through where other methods have failed. This is not entirely altruistic, either; if some of this behavior behind the statistics doesn't become less common, that will bring about the very result you (and I) fear; the "nanny state" will step in, and that will be that. The way I see it, (as if there were no other reasons), from a purely selfish perspective, we have a vested interest in discouraging, as much as we can, the sort of attitudes and poor judgment that lead to the problems.

 

[ViperGTS]

...well said...or you buy a Toyota and cant handle the floor mats ...ROFL!

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

I am concerned that good intentions (the sticky with warnings, education, or consequences) will fall short of legal standards and become a target for frivolous lawsuits. A future driver/owner may claim they "followed all directions and advice" and look for any deep pockets (the VCA) for the accident they had anyway.

We have a lawyer that represented OEMs against warranty and accident claims on the board. Hope he comments.

 

[v10viperbox]

I am concerned that good intentions (the sticky with warnings, education, or consequences) will fall short of legal standards and become a target for frivolous lawsuits. A future driver/owner may claim they "followed all directions and advice" and look for any deep pockets (the VCA) for the accident they had anyway.

Actually this is a real problem. I have no idea how it could be resolved.Given the litigious nature of people now it could do more harm then good. Heck how would something like this be delt with it it happened on a fun run, or even in a small caravan of cars to the track. Is the VCA responsible if they are the site that everything was planned on

 

[eucharistos]

Chuck, I don't read that as offensive at all. As a matter of fact, I don't think we fundamentally disagree. We have to strike a balance here, between getting people to (A) respect the power of the Viper and drive accordingly, (B) getting them to understand that the only place the car can be fully appreciated/enjoyed safely is in a controlled environment (read track), and maintaining the truth that the Viper, properly driven, is a very safe car, which it is.

The social climate you allude to in America today is a thing I have watched (with great dismay) develop. It has now spawned a couple of generations conditioned to expect a risk-free existence, in which mistakes do not have real consequences. I would go so far as to say that is the major reason we are having this discussion in the first place; we have a lot of people out there thinking it "can't happen" to them, because they assume someone or something is going to save them from the consequences of their own mistakes. Of course, it doesn't work that way, in either life in general, or in a high performance car. Too many people want instant gratification, not realizing that while you can buy the tool for it, the skill to use it has to be developed over time.

To use an analogy from another sport, you can buy the same gear a downhill ski racer uses, but while that may make you look and feel like a world class skier, it doesn't make you one, and if you fail to remember that you're pretty sure to end up with a broken leg (or worse). The equipment worked just fine; the user did not. Likewise, you can buy a world-class race car, but if you think that in itself makes you a world-class driver...well, we all know what happens next, and the problem is not that the car failed, but that the driver did. As in everything else in life, when "wannabe" gets ahead of "can-do" bad things follow.

So, what we are trying to do (and it is walking a fine line), is to "scare 'em straight", in the hope that may get the message through where other methods have failed. This is not entirely altruistic, either; if some of this behavior behind the statistics doesn't become less common, that will bring about the very result you (and I) fear; the "nanny state" will step in, and that will be that. The way I see it, (as if there were no other reasons), from a purely selfish perspective, we have a vested interest in discouraging, as much as we can, the sort of attitudes and poor judgment that lead to the problems.

a fine post and reasoning, i have highlighted the real problem with the condition you so rightly identified

the solution is found in the voters booth, but things like motor/voter, etc means people of questionable citizenship, beta males and the women who love them will turn all super cars into cool fast rolling centers of technology that virtually drive themselves and when they wreck, it won't be the driver's fault (just like you said in paragraph 2)

it is coming

 

[WILDASP]

I am concerned that good intentions (the sticky with warnings, education, or consequences) will fall short of legal standards and become a target for frivolous lawsuits. A future driver/owner may claim they "followed all directions and advice" and look for any deep pockets (the VCA) for the accident they had anyway.

We have a lawyer that represented OEMs against warranty and accident claims on the board. Hope he comments.

Tom, that is a valid concern; perhaps that gentleman, (or one of the other attorneys here) can advise on any disclaimer language which might be needed. In any case, let's move that discussion over to the safety thread.

Viperbox, getting back to this crash, have you heard anything further on the condition of the Viper driver? Obviously, all of us here are concerned and praying for his recovery.

 

[brynwill]

Jessica's funeral was yesterday..lovely service..about 500 people..most wearing some version of purple or lilac..which was Jessie's favourite colour..
Jodi (Jessie's mom) is a walking ghost as you can imagine..Doug is still in a mediclly induced coma..and no-one knows if he survive..
Doug's life was his daughter..he was a volunteer coach to her sofball team (who were all at the service)..and completely involved in every facet of his daughter's life..
We now hope and pray that Doug will recover from his extensive injuries (the head trauma is obviously the biggest problem) and be able to return to his wife..who needs him desperately..and somehow learn how to deal with the loss of his daughter..
I've heard that the driver of the SUV is recovering and I hope that that is the case..
Embrace your loved ones my friends..accidents come out of nowhere (I guess that's why they call them accidents..)

 

[Austin]

Very sad indeed. I will continue to pray for all involved. RIP, Jessica.

 

[WILDASP]

brynwill,
Thanks for the update; our continued prayers go out for all involved.