Viper production slowed by one third due to sluggish sales

[Brian GTS]

I have a feeling that if the Viper went to fuel cell technology for a Gen V, a majority of owners on this forum would be buying up previous generation Vipers instead of the Gen V. I know I would. No thanks, I'll stick with my archaic "100 year old" engine technology. I love my pistons....all 10 of them

 

[VRYALT3R3D]

I have a feeling that if the Viper went to fuel cell technology for a Gen V, a majority of owners on this forum would be buying up previous generation Vipers instead of the Gen V. I know I would. No thanks, I'll stick with my archaic "100 year old" engine technology. I love my pistons....all 10 of them

It is interesting that Ian criticizes us for wanting that, yet he wants to backwards with the Viper and wanted a spartan interior (WHICH WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST COMPLAINTS OF THE GEN IV!) Chrysler listened and vastly improved the Viper's interior while making the Viper weigh less. That is a solid WIN in my book.

It is a good thing Ian's input didn't matter. His ideas would have sunk the Viper.

Maybe if SRT gives a watch from an unknown brand to Gen V owners that will improve sales???!!!

 

[ViperSmith]

I certainly woudln't have bought a Gen V if it was basically an enclosed Ariel Atom.

Sorry, I wanted the nice leather, etc.

 

[Bobpantax]

If the performance of the top Tesla S vehicle in the quarter mile is any indication of where things are going, it is going to be very interesting going forward since that vehicle did 12.2/110 ( At PBIR last spring driven by Brooks. I was there to see it.). It seems to me that it is only a matter of time before Audi, BMW, and Mercedes jump into that space. I believe Cadillac already has announced a vehicle.

Ian, what do you see as the limits of performance of this type of vehicle for a retail price less than 100K? Do you see a sub three second 0 to 60 with a sub 10.5 second quarter in the near future?

I understand your sentiments in a small way. And sentiments is what it is = sentimental = mental - a lust and a hankering of things and times gone by.

But what is it specifically you want? On this board, it is all..... I want this, I want this, I want that, no I want this......lots of opinions but pure schizophrenia....no wonder the SRT boys were confused, and the gen V came out with change everything....but change nothing. It goes back to my saying which Bob Lutz says.....customers don't know what they want until you give it to them.

Don't forget that in my world SRT should be the development division of the organization where they test market and experiment new technologies etc (I mean it doesn't matter if a few of you genteel folks on here get grilled, lost, does it....lol.....the gene pool diversity joke improving the breed....lol)

I think it is great that you enjoy a "I enjoy having a 640HP, N/A, RWD, manual exotic too much" and the 300 or so others who have laid there money down, but that doesn't help the brand survive when they plan for 2,000.....and 2,000 is a good number to make and still keep it exclusive.

This technology is on the way....Toyota is going to be selling to the general public a Fuel Cell car in a few years, which this technology was an interim step towards and kids in 50 years time will be tuning Fuel Cells not engines where big parts of it go flying up and down, then come to a dead stop of every revolution of another big piece that goes flying around. Asia is now developing the technology (helped by their gov) that used to come out of US Government funded research labs. Lawrence Livermore, Argonne, Bell, etc....while the US tax payer decries any increase in tax's to fund these research establishments, and healthcare to young kids that could make the next great breakthrough whilst employed there.

But in 50 years time the World Government with its headquarters in Shanghai, will make sure that Piston engine cars will be outlawed, never to be run again except if converted to Hydrogen as the average world temp has risen by 5 degrees. So a Viper that wants to run will have a big Hydrogen tank sitting on the back, whilst youngsters don't give it a passing look as they fire up their equivalent 800 hp, fuel cell cars....I mean adapt or die. I mean America isn't adapting in its thinking, moving forward, and this board expresses it so adroitly, as you want and hark after the same ole, same ole....

I mean "lead or get outta the way"....instead we are being pushed out of the way. Anyone remember what happened to the UK motorbike industry ? All those great brands like Cotton, Matchless, Rudge, Valocet, AJ, Triumph, Enfield, BSA and lost more....gone because they didn't adapt to what the customer wanted,....not the 300 customers but the millions of customers wanted in Honda, Kawasaki, with electric start, turn indicators, etc

------> VRYALT3R3D so you...."personally"....one of the 300, who has or would like to buy a Viper, out of a country of 350 million, want to keep it pretty much with engine technology that was developed over 100 years ago, but just more of it is, (V10, V12 ?)....bigger is better,....(no wait that is just what all my GF tell me).

I mean this continual vociferous demanding of a product that helps create an illusion of a "Huckleberry Finn" world that has long gone, is quite frankly disturbing. I mean where is NASCAR going to get its new fans in 10, 20, years time ?

Well I could go on.....but I think you get it.....but don't want to see it.

 

[SADVIPER]

Overseas sales will rescue some of the ****ty launch done by SRT.

 

[Fatboy 18]

Overseas sales will rescue some of the ****ty launch done by SRT.

What overseas sales!

There is no dealer network, No techs, taxes would be through the roof!

But here's a thought, each time SRT comes over to Le mans, why not set up a temporary service shop for European owners

12 month annual service

 

[ACRucrazy]

Hoping SRT gets it together. Several stories like this, which bums me out.

I have owned several Vettes and 11 Vipers (including a still owned 0002 VIN 92 I bought from Bob Lutz.)

I ordered a 2013 Viper and got so disgusted with the late and miserable launch , I bought a McLaren instead.

Yesterday I was trolling nearby cars and spotted a Limerock Z51 at Lindsay in NVa.

Drove there today and bought it--drove it home in the pouring down rain.

Neat little car.:salute:

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Ian]

Hoping SRT gets it together. Several stories like this, which bums me out.

Surprising - impeccable taste, British racing green....that must put $10k on the price alone.

 

[Ian]

Depends really....whether the constraints posed upon SRT for fear of alienating its (dwindling) fan base exemplified by this board....or whether it wants to move to a more modern vision and produce iconic vehicles that stand the test of time. e.g. 2WD vs 4WD. The vehicle is traction limited so I am not sure why all the hand wringing over 400 hp vs 800 hp. 450 hp is sufficient for a good 0-60 time - and 450 hp with a 6 speed DCT for a sub 10.6 is sufficient with properly match gearing and a good diet. Possibly a Flybrid Kers system, properly charged up before a run for a sub 10 sec 0-100.

http://www.flybridsystems.co.uk/index.html

http://www.flybridsystems.co.uk/Technology.html

http://www.flybridsystems.co.uk/CFTKERS.html

But that takes investment to move the product from where it is now and some original thinking, all sadly lacking. The question is....will the voices of the ones who want the "Status Quo"....drive the brand into oblivion ?

 

[Ian]

If the performance of the top Tesla S vehicle in the quarter mile is any indication of where things are going, it is going to be very interesting going forward since that vehicle did 12.2/110 ( At PBIR last spring driven by Brooks. I was there to see it.). It seems to me that it is only a matter of time before Audi, BMW, and Mercedes jump into that space. I believe Cadillac already has announced a vehicle.

Ian, what do you see as the limits of performance of this type of vehicle for a retail price less than 100K? Do you see a sub three second 0 to 60 with a sub 10.5 second quarter in the near future?

I don't see anything wrong with an engine that is 250 lbs - 400 hp - has no cooling requirement (no radiators = weight) ?

Seems that whenever I want to post a pic now it says I have exceeded my limit.....guess I must be banned again.

Someone messaged me and said they don't post on here anymore because of the moderators restrictive policies.... which again goes to my point of unencumbered "lively" debate....and again reinforces my point about the this board having some hand in the demise of the brand, as the more assertive reactionary posters on here stiffing opposing views....

 

[ohlarikd]

I don't see anything wrong with an engine that is 250 lbs - 400 hp - has no cooling requirement (no radiators = weight) ?

Seems that whenever I want to post a pic now it says I have exceeded my limit.....guess I must be banned again.

Someone messaged me and said they don't post on here anymore because of the moderators restrictive policies.... which again goes to my point of unencumbered "lively" debate....and again reinforces my point about the this board having some hand in the demise of the brand, as the more assertive reactionary posters on here stiffing opposing views....

In theory they stopped the extreme moderation and restrictions, although hard to prove. But I always post picture to something like photobucket, then just linked to them here. That way you don't use any space and never exceed any limit.

 

[Bobpantax]

You would be notified by PM if you were banned or in moderation. The upload limit for each poster is not large. The moderation policy was recently liberalized but the rule regarding personal attacks and curse words is, and will continue to be enforced. The VCA is a Federal and State non profit entity and many young people view what is posted here. If you want a wild west environment, Viper Alley serves that purpose. Think of it as this site is for Dr. Jekyl and Viper Alley is for Mr. Hyde.

It sounds like you have been trying to sell a Flybrid concept to Chrysler for quite some time and that you may be very frustrated about their failure to accept and proceed with your creation. It also sounds like you are allowing some emotional spillage onto the people on this site.

The fact is that Chrysler was having severe financial problems when Mercedes still owned them prior to the sale of Chrysler to the three headed dog in 2007. The management of the three headed dog made things even worse until the bankrupcty filing in 2009. Then, when Fiat took over, money was still very tight. The bottom line is that I doubt that the budget was anywhere close to being available for a program to produce a radical new car. Sergio's public statements have indicated same.

So perhaps you were just ahead of your time. The person who designed the first flying wing was way ahead of his time. Now we have the B-2 bomber.

Keep trying. Maybe someday the conditions will be right for the acceptance of what you are proposing.

I don't see anything wrong with an engine that is 250 lbs - 400 hp - has no cooling requirement (no radiators = weight) ?

Seems that whenever I want to post a pic now it says I have exceeded my limit.....guess I must be banned again.

Someone messaged me and said they don't post on here anymore because of the moderators restrictive policies.... which again goes to my point of unencumbered "lively" debate....and again reinforces my point about the this board having some hand in the demise of the brand, as the more assertive reactionary posters on here stiffing opposing views....

 

[Ian]

In theory they stopped the extreme moderation and restrictions, although hard to prove. But I always post picture to something like photobucket, then just linked to them here. That way you don't use any space and never exceed any limit.

Thanks Ohlarikd...will try that...

 

[Martin]

What can we say, other than it is what it is. The car is a good car - everyone has their opinions about what they like and don't like, but if you just look at what you get for the money, it's not a bad deal. Does it get my heart racing the way the Gen I or Gen II did? Kind of, but not really. Did it get me back into a Viper obsession the way the Gen IV ACR did? Not at all. When it comes down to it, it's a solid performer, it looks great, and it's got the refinements that everyone seemed to be asking for. But, it's just one refined high-performance car in a very noisy space right now, and there are a lot of options available to buyers who can afford the car.

Regarding marketing, there are two realistic things that can be done. One is traditional, and one is not. The traditional approach is to be so loud that you stand out in the noise of the marketplace - and that does work, but it costs a lot of money and takes a lot of skill and luck. The non-traditional approach is to redefine yourself into a niche marketplace so that you're the only one making real noise in your space. Because you're operating in absence of noise, it's easy to get a lot of notice. Look at Tesla - ever since they put a car on the road, they've been in the press and I don't see them doing any big TV ad campaigns (although they are awesome at social marketing). My prediction is the BMW i8 and releases by the big players will make Tesla irrelevant, though, because as someone defines a successful niche marketplace, there will be plenty of companies jumping in and try to own it - which drives innovation.

Another option is the one that so many of the "old style" companies I've worked for have defaulted to - and that's throw more sales people at the effort and expect that will lead to more sales. Maybe SRT should have sales people cold-calling potential customers via a call center in India, or going around selling Vipers door-to-door Just kidding - that's been a sore point for me for years and I'm permanently damaged.

The perfect balance would be to release a car that redefines what it is that we buy these cars for (pure impractical fun, with a healthy dose of sheer terror thown in every once in a while, and unheard-of performance at the pricepoint) and couple that with just enough targeted advertising to leverage the media buzz.

Problem we have now is that we have a ton of unsold cars sitting around, so it's hard to put something out there that might keep those unsold cars on the lots... In my humble opinion, the way to go would have been to launch with a purely insane Gen V ACR, only make 100 of them at first, then release the 'standard' Viper that, in itself, is a solid performer but perceived as a value-Viper. Then, behind the scenes, develop a slightly more insane ACR and open it up for customer orders as the 'standard' Vipers have gained momentum and are moving like they did back in the Gen II days.

 

[Ian]

You would be notified by PM if you were banned or in moderation. The upload limit for each poster is not large. The moderation policy was recently liberalized but the rule regarding personal attacks and curse words is, and will continue to be enforced. The VCA is a Federal and State non profit entity and many young people view what is posted here. If you want a wild west environment, Viper Alley serves that purpose. Think of it as this site is for Dr. Jekyl and Viper Alley is for Mr. Hyde.

It sounds like you have been trying to sell a Flybrid concept to Chrysler for quite some time and that you may be very frustrated about their failure to accept and proceed with your creation. It also sounds like you are allowing some emotional spillage onto the people on this site.

The fact is that Chrysler was having severe financial problems when Mercedes still owned them prior to the sale of Chrysler to the three headed dog in 2007. The management of the three headed dog made things even worse until the bankrupcty filing in 2009. Then, when Fiat took over, money was still very tight. The bottom line is that I doubt that the budget was anywhere close to being available for a program to produce a radical new car. Sergio's public statements have indicated same.

So perhaps you were just ahead of your time. The person who designed the first flying wing was way ahead of his time. Now we have the B-2 bomber.

Keep trying. Maybe someday the conditions will be right for the acceptance of what you are proposing.

Ohh I am "trying" alright ....as I have been told many times.

Not trying to sell any specific concept,....more a way of thinking for my alma mata.....but "thinking" is a premium resource at CTC as it is only reserved for senior management, who alas demonstrate a paucity of it, by being restricted by the MBA conditioning to think only on a specific way.

Chrysler still has a certain leverage over their supplier community and so a new concept should not be as big a burden as one would imagine. Plus ----I can hear the screaming now------ The Government has good incentives to develop new technologies similar to how China, Japan, the whole of Europe (Germany, UK, France) does it. But as soon as the American media get a hold of it, and the proletariat are exhorted to hang every Democrat who supports any such program, or any Republican who secretly gets an earmark for the same.....why is that ?

 

[Nine Ball]

....Or, unwrap the factory supercharger option ASAP and begin touting the factory 750-800 hp that these engines are more than capable of.

Problem solved. Just do it.

 

[Ian]

You would be notified by PM if you were banned or in moderation. The upload limit for each poster is not large. The moderation policy was recently liberalized but the rule regarding personal attacks and curse words is, and will continue to be enforced. The VCA is a Federal and State non profit entity and many young people view what is posted here. If you want a wild west environment, Viper Alley serves that purpose. Think of it as this site is for Dr. Jekyl and Viper Alley is for Mr. Hyde.

It sounds like you have been trying to sell a Flybrid concept to Chrysler for quite some time and that you may be very frustrated about their failure to accept and proceed with your creation. It also sounds like you are allowing some emotional spillage onto the people on this site.

The fact is that Chrysler was having severe financial problems when Mercedes still owned them prior to the sale of Chrysler to the three headed dog in 2007. The management of the three headed dog made things even worse until the bankrupcty filing in 2009. Then, when Fiat took over, money was still very tight. The bottom line is that I doubt that the budget was anywhere close to being available for a program to produce a radical new car. Sergio's public statements have indicated same.

So perhaps you were just ahead of your time. The person who designed the first flying wing was way ahead of his time. Now we have the B-2 bomber.

Keep trying. Maybe someday the conditions will be right for the acceptance of what you are proposing.

P.S. I have no real love for Flybrid as I was working for them on a commission basis only. I placed a $25 JV, and $100 -$200M investment in capital equipment and facilities with a leading Tier 1 supplier on the table for them. They said thanks and took over the negotiations direct from UK and botched it with the Tier 1 who walked away....and then so did I. ! But it is still good technology and is very viable, seperating the product from my experience !

 

[Martin]

P.S. I have no real love for Flybrid as I was working for them on a commission basis only. I placed a $25 JV, and $100 -$200M investment in capital equipment and facilities with a leading Tier 1 supplier on the table for them. They said thanks and took over the negotiations direct from UK and botched it with the Tier 1 who walked away....and then so did I. ! But it is still good technology and is very viable, seperating the product from my experience !

I personally think the concept of Flybrid regenerative energy storage is brilliant - but in a race car and not a street car. At maximum energy storage, the RPMs of those counter-rotating flywheels is insane, and the gyroscopic forces generated by those flywheels during attitude change and perturbation is a lot for any bearing to handle. Sure - the flywheels are spinning in opposite directions, so the net gyroscopic force outside of the containment housing is zero, but each of the bearings holding each of the flywheels has to put up with a lot of abuse. Before I ever buy a car with that technology, I want to see a 100,000 mile durability torture-test and be guaranteed of a very elegant failure mode

 

[ferraritoviper]

I do not think the racing comes out of the same Budget. Do you know for sure?

Yes, as it turns out practically the entire marketing budget went to SRT's racing program.

 

[ferraritoviper]

Just saw my first Viper advertisment!!!! It was in Exotic Car 2014 Buyers Guide by duPont Registry...125 reviews. They gave the TA a positive review, and the full page next to it was a Stryker Red Viper with SRT boldly in red under it, followed by only 9 dealers, Woodhouse/Tomball not included...left me wondering.

Unfortunately I just found out, that advertisment was created by duPont (not SRT) for their Buyers Guide, who solicited dealers to participate in the cost...hence only 9 dealers were listed.

 

[Bobpantax]

The electric car industry has been massivey subsidized with taxpayer dollars effected through government loans and the sale of credits to "regular" manufacturers. Tesla is a case and point of this. This was done despite no nationwide recharging grid or dealer tech/service available. I would say that is pretty aggressive. It would seem to me that those companies that design, manufacture and sell traditional parts, including traditional engine parts, to the manufacturers have much to do with the resistance to the new technology. And then there is the impact of the auto workers union. New technology means retraining and possibly loss of some jobs, i.e. engine assembly; radiator installation, etc.


The current crop of engineers and bean counters in place are used to thinking in internal combustion terms and the corporate cultural factors should not be underestimated.

In any event, no one is going to be moved into a different way of thinking by calling them names. Calling them names will just further back them up against the wall of their own comfort zones. In order to lead people into a new way of thinking, you have to show them that the risk of them losing what they have is minimal and that the probability of them gaining more than they have is significant. Negative words are not part of that magic. Good luck going forward.

Ohh I am "trying" alright ....as I have been told many times.

Not trying to sell any specific concept,....more a way of thinking for my alma mata.....but "thinking" is a premium resource at CTC as it is only reserved for senior management, who alas demonstrate a paucity of it, by being restricted by the MBA conditioning to think only on a specific way.

Chrysler still has a certain leverage over their supplier community and so a new concept should not be as big a burden as one would imagine. Plus ----I can hear the screaming now------ The Government has good incentives to develop new technologies similar to how China, Japan, the whole of Europe (Germany, UK, France) does it. But as soon as the American media get a hold of it, and the proletariat are exhorted to hang every Democrat who supports any such program, or any Republican who secretly gets an earmark for the same.....why is that ?

 

[ViperSmith]

....Or, unwrap the factory supercharger option ASAP and begin touting the factory 750-800 hp that these engines are more than capable of.

Problem solved. Just do it.

Gotta say that would get some attention.

 

[JLorello]

What happened to George Washington charging the field in his challenger? One of the greatest auto commercials made. Shame we don't see an invisible monkey playing with a viper.

Please take a look at this, my favorite of all auto commercials. And it just happens to be on the halo car itself.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V28a3Q2Yxk

 

[Bobpantax]

This is my favorite car commercial: ? Dodge Viper Commercial (1999) - YouTube

 

[shine]

Gen V 'Ring Run?

Sub-7.20 should get peoples' attention.

 

[jdg1428]

....Or, unwrap the factory supercharger option ASAP and begin touting the factory 750-800 hp that these engines are more than capable of.

Problem solved. Just do it.

This is the best idea on here.

 

[SADVIPER]

What overseas sales!

There is no dealer network, No techs, taxes would be through the roof!

But here's a thought, each time SRT comes over to Le mans, why not set up a temporary service shop for European owners

12 month annual service

In the middle east, we survived with no official Viper service for ages and we don't have taxes here!
what could be worse train some techs here or stick by the stupid network in the u.s?

 

[Fatboy 18]

In the middle east, we survived with no official Viper service for ages and we don't have taxes here!
what could be worse train some techs here or stick by the stupid network in the u.s?

No Taxes, sounds great
I agree you could train some people to look after these toys.

But.... The problem comes with new owners expecting to be able to have the factory warranty and a dealership network. I'm not talking about diehard previous Viper owners here, I'm talking about the new owner which SRT wants to connect with.

In the UK we do have companies that import cars from all manufactures and offer a warranty, but these companies are few and far between, so getting your brand spread across the country is not going to work. There would also have to be some sort of Tax deal between the USA and the UK to make the prospect viable.

No idea how it would work selling to the rest of Europe? The Sweed's seem to love American cars, not sure on what import duties would be imposed there?

 

[PeerBlock]

I don't see anything wrong with an engine that is 250 lbs - 400 hp - has no cooling requirement (no radiators = weight) ?

Seems that whenever I want to post a pic now it says I have exceeded my limit.....guess I must be banned again.

Someone messaged me and said they don't post on here anymore because of the moderators restrictive policies.... which again goes to my point of unencumbered "lively" debate....and again reinforces my point about the this board having some hand in the demise of the brand, as the more assertive reactionary posters on here stiffing opposing views....

Are you seriously coming here and advocating an electric Viper? That's just fail...electric cars and to some degree hybrids are little more than the physical manifestation of a misguided liberal political agenda...I don't even want to get into the fact that the whole "man-made global warming (now it's cooling)" is a total farce with no scientific basis - but that fiction is the catalyst used to justify doling out billions of taxpayer dollars to fund these electric car programs as well as the mountains of new regulations put forth by the EPA to prevent an imaginary problem.

Your assertion that electric motors do not need cooling is false. They absolutely need to be cooled because heat has a substantial impact on their performance - electrical conductivity is inversely proportional to the temperature of said conductor. That means the hotter the wire, the less electricity can travel through it.

Beyond that, electric motors are powered by batteries (the most practical method) lose performance the moment you apply an electrical load. The battery voltage constantly drops incrementally; and when a high-amp load is placed on the battery, it's overall voltage drops. Improvements in battery technology have been able to reduce this effect but it's hardly been eliminated.

There are power density issues where, pound for pound, electric motors are outperformed by gas-burning counterparts. This problem also exists on the fuel side...there is more energy in one pound of gasoline than you could ever hope to extract from a one pound battery. When the power storage issue is addressed, soulless electric vehicles may become practical for certain applications...but never will there be a practical reason for an electric or hybrid Viper.

 

[v10enomous]

The big push for electric is the result of indoctrination for which some folks are the poster children. They'll accuse you of being a troglodyte and call you all sorts of names an lay out doomsday scenarios if you disagree when in fact they can't see how close minded their own views are. That's been my experience anyway and I actually have a hybrid vehicle in my garage. The electric car folks will lay claim to the intellectual high ground and they see themselves as forward thinkers when the idea of electric cars has been around for over a century but some folks can't help but to be exploited as political pawns.

Are you seriously coming here and advocating an electric Viper? That's just fail...electric cars and to some degree hybrids are little more than the physical manifestation of a misguided liberal political agenda...I don't even want to get into the fact that the whole "man-made global warming (now it's cooling)" is a total farce with no scientific basis - but that fiction is the catalyst used to justify doling out billions of taxpayer dollars to fund these electric car programs as well as the mountains of new regulations put forth by the EPA to prevent an imaginary problem.

Your assertion that electric motors do not need cooling is false. They absolutely need to be cooled because heat has a substantial impact on their performance - electrical conductivity is inversely proportional to the temperature of said conductor. That means the hotter the wire, the less electricity can travel through it.

Beyond that, electric motors are powered by batteries (the most practical method) lose performance the moment you apply an electrical load. The battery voltage constantly drops incrementally; and when a high-amp load is placed on the battery, it's overall voltage drops. Improvements in battery technology have been able to reduce this effect but it's hardly been eliminated.

There are power density issues where, pound for pound, electric motors are outperformed by gas-burning counterparts. This problem also exists on the fuel side...there is more energy in one pound of gasoline than you could ever hope to extract from a one pound battery. When the power storage issue is addressed, soulless electric vehicles may become practical for certain applications...but never will there be a practical reason for an electric or hybrid Viper.