Viper Tuners

[Custom Builder]

What is the reason so many of you send large amounts of money and cars to some of these guys who continually have problems? Every business has problems, shoot I'll admit to that one, but some of these tuners seem to be making bags of money, yet quite a few people seem **********. I've got a large warehouse (15,000 sq ft) attached to my current builing that I own that is empty. After reading all of these bad threads about some of these tuners sometimes I think why don't I buy a few lifts, bunch of tools, dyno, etc. and hire one or two excellent Viper techs and a few others to help out. I currently pay my superintendents about 50-60K per year and I would assume a guy could get a good tech for somewhere near that salary plus bonuses. I don't care for the body kits etc, but I do love the engine/drivetrain mods. Do you send your cars away because you don't have the time or mechanical skills to do it yourself? That is my reason for taking my car to Woodhouse to have my Roe installed when I get it. I have also heard some very good things about some of the guys on this board (Levin, Heffner, Roe, Woodhouse, TNT, etc.). Are they that much better because of their cutomer service or are they or their techs that much better than the others?

 

[DLTARNU]

Being a good tuner isn't only about the person's mechanical ability. It also encompasses personality traits.

Take John Henn!essey, for example. It would be difficult, if not impossible to argue that he is a 'bad' tuner. He has built some outrageous cars. However, many people won't send their cars his way because he has proven to be an outright thief time and time again. Google the name 'Taig Stewart' for some scary reading. Fat lot of good his respectable mechanical abilities did for the people he ripped off. Getting ripped-off by a talented tuner doesn't make it any less of a rip-off.

Then you have the other end of the spectrum. Take your average Dodge dealership factory trained Viper mechanic. Chances are he's a good guy and may even have above average mechanical inclination. But the fact is that most don't see enough Vipers to become intimately acquainted with the intricacies and peculiarities of the car. And you rrreeeaaallllyyyy don't want YOUR Viper to be the one he learns these things on. Learning is often a destructive process.

So what you really want in a Viper tuner is someone with far above average mechanical acuity, combined with years of previous Viper experience, who really loves the car, and is honest, hard-working, timely and a perfectionist.

Take all that into account, and Viper owners are left with a handful of tuners, most of who you already named. I'm fortunate to live an hour south of Doug Levin, but for those people who are states away from the upper echelon tuners, it must be nerve racking everytime they take their car to get serviced or repaired.

And this is why you often see people ship their cars from all over the U.S., and even from out of the country, to the top tuners - because they are the only ones the owners can *really* trust.

 

[Custom Builder]

Damn, good response. What if Henn!ssey sold or had someone else run it? Would the VCA people etc. go back? Surely some of these good tuners/bad businessmen have some excellent help who could work for someone else. My personal car was done by TNT. Excellent job, I bug them all the time, very polite. I just can't imagine some of the crap I've been hearing.

 

[VIPR GTS]

UNRATLD is right on with his thoughts, trust the tuners you read about here, especially Mr. Larry Macedo, a perfectionist and gentelman.

 

[Custom Builder]

UNRATLD is right on with his thoughts, trust the tuners you read about here, especially Mr. Larry Macedo, a perfectionist and gentelman.

Oops, left him off of the list. I was emailed some good things about him a few days ago when I was looking for an S/C.

 

[RedGTS]

Damn, good response. What if Henn!ssey sold or had someone else run it? Would the VCA people etc. go back? Surely some of these good tuners/bad businessmen have some excellent help who could work for someone else. My personal car was done by TNT. Excellent job, I bug them all the time, very polite. I just can't imagine some of the crap I've been hearing.

JPH is extremely busy from what I hear, despite his past problems, so I don't think he's worried about the "VCA people" or whoever coming back. Hopefully he can continue to meet or exceed the expectations of his current customers and prove he turned over a new leaf.

Another thing you didn't mention is that every tuner will have a few detractors or people who claim they were screwed over, whether due to the fact that the customer was unreasonable or the fact that tuners and their employees are human and sometimes make mistakes. In the last two years I can recall at least one or two threads that were highly critical of almost every major tuner, including TNT, which you had a good experience with. But with the vast majority of the well known tuners, that is very rare. With that said, I'm unsure what the basis is for your post--JPH's problems were discussed at length a couple of years ago, and I assume the current thread on Elite Motorsports is what generated your comments, but 1) it's way too early to equate the current unhappiness with Elite to what happened with JPH, either in terms of number of customers, dollars involved, or how overdue the parts or services are; and 2) other than those two entities, who else isn't satisfying the vast majority of their customers? In fact, if one assumes JPH has been satisfying his customers over the last year or so (I know of no reason to think otherwise), then that leaves only the current unhappiness with Elite, which doesn't seem to support a general observation questioning why people send cars to "these guys." It seems to me that virtually all the well known tuners are doing a pretty good job and have been doing so since their inception.

 

[proracer1]

THEY DO NOT COME ANY BETTER THAN LARRY MACEDO AND SEAN ROE.....ADD DAN @ DC PERFORMANCE TO THE LIST AS WELL

 

[DLTARNU]

"Another thing you didn't mention is that every tuner will have a few detractors or people who claim they were screwed over, whether due to the fact that the customer was unreasonable or the fact that tuners and their employees are human and sometimes make mistakes."

Oh definitely. Some customers can be unreasonable with their demands, and I think everyone understands that. There was one guy - can't remember his name - who had beef with Roe and was on this forum for a while trying to stir up resentment towards him. Sean publicly defended himself, and in the end, the customer came out sounding like the unreasonable one and I doubt Roe lost much/any business because of it.

I also think that people are understanding of mistakes made by tuners *IF* the tuner is willing to remedy the situation in a timely manner and at his own expense. After all, it's certainly not the customer's fault that the tuner screwed up.

I'll give you a very recent example that happened to me. I was at a stereo installer getting a new head unit put in. Once the install was complete, they told me it took longer than they estimated and raised the charge by $50. It was true that the install took all day, but they set the estimate, not me. And this was after they told me they had worked on at least 10 other Vipers, implying, of course, that they knew what they were doing. Very well, I didn't complain about the $50 add-on and even tipped the installer $25.

While I'm driving home I go to roll down my window to pay a toll. Hit the switch, nada. Nothing. Dead. Great. So I have to open my door in the toll plaza to hand out money. I knew the installer must have disconnected/blown something during the install. So, I got irritated, especially since they charged me more AND I tipped the guy. I go another few miles and was fiddling with the switch. All of a sudden, my window goes down, but I had pushed the passenger side window switch up. Yes, they mounted my power window switch upside down. This put me in a slightly better mood, until I noticed the scratches they put in my week-old MGW shifter knob.

So I go back two days later, which was yesterday, and tell them about the power window switch. The installer IMMEDIATELY starts denying responsibility to the store manager. Then he comes out and looks, realizes what he did, pulls off the dash panel, reverses the switch, and replaces the panel - snapping off and shattering an alarm indicator LED in the process.

So now my windows work correctly, but I have an alarm diode missing and a scratched MGW knob that was brand new. Normally I would have told them to replace both, but since I'm getting a new alarm and already got a new shifter (I had the 1-6 and changed to Sneaky Pete - if anyone wants a very slightly scratched 1-6 MGW shifter for a good price, let me know) I didn't say anything. But that isn't the point. Point is, these people charge for their services and they need to assume a large degree of responsibility for what happens to the vehicle while under their care. These cars ain't your grandpappy's Buick Regal. They are rare, expensive, high-performance machinery and should be treated as such.

Now what happened to me was maybe $125 worth of damage - not worth getting upset over, except in principle. What has happened to others with their Vipers is nothing short of robbery. Even if Taig Stewart was the only example, that should be enough for jail time. And he isn't even close to being the only customer that got screwed by JH.

Going back to my stereo installer, if he would have said, "Look, I'm really sorry but I scratched your shifter knob during the install." I would have shrugged, told him not to worry about it, and moved on. But he never said a word, and the scratches were quite obvious. I'm sure he was hoping I wouldn't notice, as if Viper owners wouldn't notice such things. On my ****** Nissan pick-up truck, you could detonate a grenade in the cab and I probably wouldn't bat an eyelash. With the Viper, if a gnat poops on the hood, I go after him and his family.

Yes, tuners are people and they ake mistakes. But once that mistake is made, it is solely their responsibility to make it right in a timely manner. When they don't, that pretty much qualifies them as scammers. Money paid for services not rendered or equipment not delivered is NO DIFFERENT than outright theft. It's as if they took the money out of the customer's wallet in a dark alley, just with more paperwork involved.

 

[Dr Roof]

I think that if a company can turn your car in a reasonable amount of time they are the ones that are worth doing business with!

If people would speak out and be honest alot of our famous Tuners would be revealed!

Horror storries lurk in the background and the customer lives in fear hoping that one day the car will be returned. if they complain or publically address the issue they are afraid the Tuner will not give them the maximum promised! Tuners have cars for over a year at times! there is NEVER an excuse for this!!!! NEVER!!!!


Bottom LINE NEVER PAY UP FRONT and get it in writting! If a Tuner will not disclose information in detail in writting and in contract form DO NOT DO BUSINESS with them!!!

GET IT IN WRITTING!!!!!

 

[Custom Builder]

[quote
JPH is extremely busy from what I hear, despite his past problems, so I don't think he's worried about the "VCA people" or whoever coming back. Hopefully he can continue to meet or exceed the expectations of his current customers and prove he turned over a new leaf.

Another thing you didn't mention is that every tuner will have a few detractors or people who claim they were screwed over, whether due to the fact that the customer was unreasonable or the fact that tuners and their employees are human and sometimes make mistakes. In the last two years I can recall at least one or two threads that were highly critical of almost every major tuner, including TNT, which you had a good experience with. But with the vast majority of the well known tuners, that is very rare. With that said, I'm unsure what the basis is for your post--JPH's problems were discussed at length a couple of years ago, and I assume the current thread on Elite Motorsports is what generated your comments, but 1) it's way too early to equate the current unhappiness with Elite to what happened with JPH, either in terms of number of customers, dollars involved, or how overdue the parts or services are; and 2) other than those two entities, who else isn't satisfying the vast majority of their customers? In fact, if one assumes JPH has been satisfying his customers over the last year or so (I know of no reason to think otherwise), then that leaves only the current unhappiness with Elite, which doesn't seem to support a general observation questioning why people send cars to "these guys." It seems to me that virtually all the well known tuners are doing a pretty good job and have been doing so since their inception.

[/QUOTE]


In my profession I deal with discrepancies at closings that far exceed the price of a new Viper with any mods you can stuff in it. In our higher end homes we have overages of 100K plus at closing and they always dispute it. In the more expensive neighborhoods you have the special assesments coming in 10-20K higher for the lot alone and the buyer must pay. Believe me, I KNOW there are always detractors and people who are just down right unreasonable. No way could I get a good reference from everyone I built a home for. What I meant by the "VCA people" was the people that travel in those circles or are familiar with the stories often posted on these boards. Take the Taig Stewart case that I hear JH just lost. While I am not a rich man I have lawsuits that dwarf that 30K someting case going on at the rate of 2-3 per year. I have to sue suppliers, subs, developers, engineers, etc. Shoot, I've got 2 people on the payment plan now that couldn't fess up with the funds for overages at closing. My sister is an MD in Dallas and one of her partners has a JH car and LOVES it. When I was looking for a silver with blue stripe GTS I found one in Florida and it had Elite work done to it and the guy just raved about him. He said his friend had 2 gts's, both moded at Elite, and he couldn't be happier. Personally all that I have heard about either of the tuners you have mentioned has been nothing but good. Why did you bring them up?

The basis of my post is: Do most enthusiasts take their Viper to a tuner because they haven't the time or mechanical ability to do it them selves? Also, is it worth it to take it to someone with a poor customer service record, but an awesome record as a tuner? I am also looking to get into something aside from construction. I love cars and would like to do something I enjoy. I love building homes and banks, but I'm sure some of the other contractors here will tell you that some days you feel like giving yourself a self-inflicted 16 penny to the head.

I had a guy call me 2 months ago and say, "I hear you're a real pain in the ass, but you build a great house. I think I can put up with you for 7 months if it means getting a great house."

So you see, I feel I have a little in common with a few of "these guys".

 

[Fishtail]

I think that if a company can turn your car in a reasonable amount of time they are the ones that are worth doing business with!

If people would speak out and be honest alot of our famous Tuners would be revealed!

Horror storries lurk in the background and the customer lives in fear hoping that one day the car will be returned. if they complain or publically address the issue they are afraid the Tuner will not give them the maximum promised! Tuners have cars for over a year at times! there is NEVER an excuse for this!!!! NEVER!!!!


Bottom LINE NEVER PAY UP FRONT and get it in writting! If a Tuner will not disclose information in detail in writting and in contract form DO NOT DO BUSINESS with them!!!

GET IT IN WRITTING!!!!!

I've had every type of sports car and the performance never seems to be enough. I've sent my cars (not just a Viper) near and far to performance tuners all over the country. Believe me, EVERY TUNER has their pros and cons. The contract with the terms, conditions, and warranty is only as good as the paper it's written on.

"I" found a tuner that I can trust and to do the job expected of him, because the last thing I need is a court of law telling me how to interpret a contract!

-Lou

 

[Custom Builder]

I think that if a company can turn your car in a reasonable amount of time they are the ones that are worth doing business with!

If people would speak out and be honest alot of our famous Tuners would be revealed!

Horror storries lurk in the background and the customer lives in fear hoping that one day the car will be returned. if they complain or publically address the issue they are afraid the Tuner will not give them the maximum promised! Tuners have cars for over a year at times! there is NEVER an excuse for this!!!! NEVER!!!!


Bottom LINE NEVER PAY UP FRONT and get it in writting! If a Tuner will not disclose information in detail in writting and in contract form DO NOT DO BUSINESS with them!!!

GET IT IN WRITTING!!!!!

Damn Roof, sounds like you speak from experience. Do you think that they take on too much work? Kind of like an MD double booking patients so you sit in the waiting room and examining room for an hour? Speaking of the horror stories in the back ground you ought to see some of my emails.

 

[Jay Herbert]

The answer to your initial question is most seem to use tuners because they chose not to do the work themselves, and want a bad-ass ride.

But that is rapidly changing. We are seeing more and more hands on owners that want to put on their own exhausts and roller rockers. Many are even pulling their heads and having them sent off to a head shop to be flowed, and pulling their intakes to have extrude honed directly by Extrude Hone. Others are installing SC's and one fellow even built his own TT.

Times are changing in the Viper world as Gen I and II cars are affordible to the folks that have always done their own work, and would never think of sending their car off to a tuner for something they could do themselves. It is getting pretty fun.

There are really plenty of quality tuners who deal with customers with honesty and integrity out their now. But that does not mean that the Viper world could not use another. It is also pretty regional, yes folks still send their cars cross country, but with The FL boys, Jason on the east coast, A number of quality shops in TX, 2 in Houston (including RSI the one that Dr. Roof chose after looking hard at all available for TT's) and one in Dallas, with several other quality Dallas shops coming on board) and DC Performance (Dan Cragin of DC Performance has been working on Vipers since 1992) and West Coast Vipers in CA, and Mike in Canada.... the country is pretty well covered with quality folks that can do the full range of mods. Setting up a shop in NB would certainly be nice for those in the midwest, but it would take a while to build a reputation, with Woodhouse in your area, there is already a strong Viper tech that certainly is getting good at top level racing Viper work and has done a lot of aftermarket upgrades.

It appears that to really do a Tuner shop right it takes a lot more than a good mechanic and a building. Someone needs to be able to answer the phone, and take and ship orders. Someone else needs to be sharp enough to sell a package to the customer in the first place, and answer customer questions as their car is being built. To often it seems the mechanic is doing the selling, the building, the answering of questions, and the marketing.. this has to lead to a bottleneck somewhere..... or the person needs to be able to say "No" when the ammount of business exceeds what can be completed in a timely fashion... all the while knowing if they say "No".... since their are so many options out there now, that customer will just go to a Viper Shop that will say "Yes".... even if it can't get the work done....

The sucessful Tuner shops also work on more than Vipers, Vipers may be glamerous, but face it, there are only so many Viper owners that will have high dollar work done on their cars.

Another catagory of buyers just go to the tuner in the magazine, those tend to be the one's that get taken to the cleaners, because they believe what they read.... and often do not do their homework. (Sadly Taig was an example of that type of buyer) Many of these buyers never even know they do not get what they paid for. Magazines can be manipulated, specially by a Tuner that knows what rules can be broken in order for their car to end up on top in any given test, or who to stroke at any given magazine to get the press in the first place. Don't count on any of these uninformed buyers at a new shop.

 

[Dr Roof]

Well said Jay!

 

[Schulmann]

Very interesting post.
My point of view is the following:
- Viper is a very simple car. You don`t need a PhD to tune it. Take a Mercedes from 2001 and you will see that you need a PhD in Computer Science to tune it.
- I have just purchased a Roe supercharger a couple of weeks ago and I have decided to install it myself. There are several reasons for this:
- I love mecanics. I want to learn about my Viper. No Viper tuning shop within 500mi.
- I think in any car tuning what counts the most is experience and personal attitude.
- For instance during the installation Sean Roe helped me without hesitation. It took me 3 times 8 hours to install the SC. However a person who has already installed a Roe SC could have done tha job in 8 hours.
- At present I am in the tuning phase and Sean Roe still helps me. And I can tell you I learned a lot about injection and AFR. It takes me more time to tune my car but who cares I am learning.
- In May I was at my local Dodge dealer for an oil change on my Viper. It was for a warranty issue. The mechanic who changed the oil took 30 min to lift my car because he never had the opportunity to have a look on a viper. The Dealership didn`t charge me more for his time. Though I gave him a 20$ tip.

Conclusion:
Having a experienced mechanic available for your Viper will save you a lot of time and troubles. It is matter of experience. Roe Sean is a perfect exemple for this. Though if you know a mechanic with the right attitude and you give him time he can master the Viper.

 

[DLTARNU]

"Do you think that they take on too much work? Kind of like an MD double booking patients so you sit in the waiting room and examining room for an hour?"

I'll take a stab at this. Assume a tuner takes on a major project. He estimates, accurately, that the entire build will take 3 weeks. He allocates time for the job. Twelve days into the build, the customer calls and says he changed his mind and wants 200 more HP. Very well, but he'll need different heads, cam, etc. Those parts have to be ordered from several different sources, each one with varying delivery times. Some are in stock, others are back ordered. So the original 3-week estimate is shot.

Obviously the tuner can't sit there with his thumb up his ass waiting for the other parts to come in, so he takes on another major project while he waits. He allocates the same 3-week window for that car, and its owner ALSO changes his mind. That 3-week allocation is shot to hell, as well.

Oh, and one of the suppliers called to tell him that the new camshaft didn't come in on time, and it will take another week. Oh, and the new heads came in but they aren't the right ones. Seems the salesman wrote down part #33256-67T instead of #33246-67T. Now those will have to be sent back. Oh, and the #33246-67T's are on back order. More time.

I don't think such scenarios are unlikely, and as such, I think most people can be somewhat sympathetic to hi-performance tuners. The owners of such cars tend to have very high, often unrealistic expectations. But due to the whimsicality of many (most?) people, the tuner has to cover himself, just as the doctor who double books, because he anticipates cancellations. He is usually RIGHT. (I spent years setting up networks and medical software for hospitals and private medical practices) People cancel doctor visits ALL THE TIME. So if the doctor allocates 16 30-minute blocks per day for patients, all it takes is 1 person to be late and the entire plan is screwed. Or if one cancels, that is 30 unbillable minutes of his time.

So just as you can't expect doctors to sit around waiting for patients who may or may not show up, you can't expect tuners, many who have techs on their payroll, to sit around working on one project at a time, especially when the customer is often the reason for the delay.

*disclaimer - I am not a tuner, but I have been personally involved in large-scale network rollouts where the same type of situation arose. I'm just adapting the same scenario to tuners.

 

[Dr Roof]

Ok

I do around 1500-2000 Roofs every year. If I promise a customer a finish date I do everything possible to make that happen. I do not make excuses I simple tell them the truth. IF no material I tell them that, If I screwed up I also tell them that and do whatever neccessary to make sure that it is completed ASAP!

SO if you have a problem with someone on parts you find someone else or use multiple resources with people that will help you in a bind.


But my point is that TUners take peoples money up front and keep there car for way too long which drives the customer in to fear of saying nothing but good so they make sure one day they will get the car back in Great shape.

If the This happens to a tuner and products are delayed I understand but I feel the Tuner should stock the parts in advanced for the cars they are building or coming in and have it ready when the car arrives.

But Again NEVER NEVER NEVER should these cars take more than 3 months (that is more than enough time) and if there are problems give them 4 months'. reality they can be done in a couple weeks with proper management for production!

This deal with Elite and these customers screwed needs to bring to light that people need to quit paying up front and makes sure you get a contract!!! otherwise as long as they looka t your car you will never win in court for time delays!

 

[SilverBlueGTS]

I got screwed by a homebuilder one time and I've actually thought about getting into the building business for the same reasons you want to get into the tuning business. Every builder I have ever known makes a lot of money and most of them dont seem to to be all that smart or talented. I bet I could make a good living building houses by just treating people honestly and with respect. Seems like most new home builders these days are like used car salesmen that moved up the ladder.

John Thompson

What is the reason so many of you send large amounts of money and cars to some of these guys who continually have problems? Every business has problems, shoot I'll admit to that one, but some of these tuners seem to be making bags of money, yet quite a few people seem **********. I've got a large warehouse (15,000 sq ft) attached to my current builing that I own that is empty. After reading all of these bad threads about some of these tuners sometimes I think why don't I buy a few lifts, bunch of tools, dyno, etc. and hire one or two excellent Viper techs and a few others to help out. I currently pay my superintendents about 50-60K per year and I would assume a guy could get a good tech for somewhere near that salary plus bonuses. I don't care for the body kits etc, but I do love the engine/drivetrain mods. Do you send your cars away because you don't have the time or mechanical skills to do it yourself? That is my reason for taking my car to Woodhouse to have my Roe installed when I get it. I have also heard some very good things about some of the guys on this board (Levin, Heffner, Roe, Woodhouse, TNT, etc.). Are they that much better because of their cutomer service or are they or their techs that much better than the others?

 

[Custom Builder]

I got screwed by a homebuilder one time and I've actually thought about getting into the building business for the same reasons you want to get into the tuning business. Every builder I have ever known makes a lot of money and most of them dont seem to to be all that smart or talented. I bet I could make a good living building houses by just treating people honestly and with respect. Seems like most new home builders these days are like used car salesmen that moved up the ladder.
John Thompson


Just smart enough to take you though it seems. Let me guess, you're one of those people who changed your tile, paint, stone, counter tops, etc. color and material 5 times before it was put on and somewhere along the line the wrong color or style was installed that was one of your previous choices that you signed off on. You then could not produce said signed change order and insist you told "everyone" about the change, yet they had the signed document stating said choice was correct. Even better yet, I'll bet your one of those idiots who pull up and see the siding installed on the house and threaten to sue because it's the wrong color, then when you are told it still has to be painted the color you chose and singed off for, you stomp away looking for the next little catastrophe. I'll let you carry my cell phone for a day and play builder and I'll bet by the end of the day you'd either throw yourself off of a bridge or have your teeth knocked out by one of the subs.

Not that smart or talented? www.tollbrothers.com
www.londonbay.com

 

[Custom Builder]

Very interesting post.
My point of view is the following:
- Viper is a very simple car. You don`t need a PhD to tune it. Take a Mercedes from 2001 and you will see that you need a PhD in Computer Science to tune it.
- I have just purchased a Roe supercharger a couple of weeks ago and I have decided to install it myself. There are several reasons for this:
- I love mecanics. I want to learn about my Viper. No Viper tuning shop within 500mi.
- I think in any car tuning what counts the most is experience and personal attitude.
- For instance during the installation Sean Roe helped me without hesitation. It took me 3 times 8 hours to install the SC. However a person who has already installed a Roe SC could have done tha job in 8 hours.
- At present I am in the tuning phase and Sean Roe still helps me. And I can tell you I learned a lot about injection and AFR. It takes me more time to tune my car but who cares I am learning.
- In May I was at my local Dodge dealer for an oil change on my Viper. It was for a warranty issue. The mechanic who changed the oil took 30 min to lift my car because he never had the opportunity to have a look on a viper. The Dealership didn`t charge me more for his time. Though I gave him a 20$ tip.

Conclusion:
Having a experienced mechanic available for your Viper will save you a lot of time and troubles. It is matter of experience. Roe Sean is a perfect exemple for this. Though if you know a mechanic with the right attitude and you give him time he can master the Viper.

So far the car seems pretty straight forward, but I'm having a hell of a time figuring out the VEC tuning procedures. I haven't bought one yet, but I'm looking for a VEC 1 because I've heard they are a little more basic than the VEC2. I'll keep researching, but some unlucky fellow is going to end up getting a call for help. I am currently searching for a used Roe charger and if one doesn't show up soon I'll buy new. I missed out on 2manytoys and RedGTS's chargers. Shoot, they went fast. I guess I'll just tinker on my car and see what happens.

 

[NascarDave]

Joe Donovan needs to be added to the list of good tuners. I've watched him stand behind his work, even when it wasn't his fault just to keep the customer happy. He is very knowledgable on Vipers, agressive on pricing and above average on customer satisfaction. His honesty is why he will be a tuner to be reckoned with in the near future.

DN