Viper vs Z06

[AG98RT10]

Indeed...
Watching some drag racing on Speed the other day I realized (not really for the first time) that virtually any old tub can be made to run virtually any time wanted, given the builder wants to spend the dough to do it. Six second Hondas -sure they were on there. Plenty of eight second sheist-rods, too.

I think anyone who has owned both Corvettes and Vipers understands very well the differences. Many Vette owners are in fact delusional about their little small block cars. Others understand that Viper is higher up the food chain.

As far as exotics (Lambos, Ferraris, etc.) - most of them are not faster than many Vettes, and most are downright embarrassed by Vipers. (Just talking overall performance, not style or other intangibles here)

Finally, absolutely agree that the quarter mile is one of the worst measures of overall performance. Just look at the bizarre adaptations winning drivers have to make to their rides for top times. Vipers, even stock, run high elevens and are road course ready from the factory. Z06's run low twelves usually and do well at road coarses, but generally are behind the snakes.

 

[Mike 99ACR]

Ok now I understand your just saying a great driver in a slower car can beat a not so good driver in a fast car. I would agree with that. I would also agree if you ramdomly picked 10 stock z06 car and drivers and 10 stock Viper car and drivers that the Vipers would dominate.

 

[GR8_ASP]

I really do not want to join in this, but ...

First, the times you mention are all at very low density altitudes. Most of us do not have that option and compare what we see to your numbers and choke. I would like to see the stock Z06 do an 11.8 here with a normal summertime density altitude of 2000. The local track here is extremely difficult to get sub 1.9 60 ft times on stock tires. That combination generally means a 12.2 is a very good time in a GTS and 12.5 is also very good for the Vette.

I do agree that the Viper is much more difficult to drive. The combination of higher driveline inertia and wide torque band make it very difficult to launch without excessive tire spin. The primary method to minimize tire spin, while keeping engine speed up (to prevent bogging) is slipping the clutch. A practice most Viper owners probably avoid.

Regarding the standing versus rolling start on the street I find that I never start "spirited" driving against another car from a dead stop. And I believe that from a roll you would find that all of your launch expertise would be of little value and it would come down primarily to the cars capability (assuming that proper shift points are chosen).

The bottom line is that I do the dragstrip thing once or twice a year. But I do street driving as often as I can. Can you tell which is more important to me?

 

[98MODMTR]

Here...let the orignal poster of the thread put up some competely un biased information. Now having finally taken a ride in a 04 SRT (sebring 2 days ago)....hands down there is NO...NONE, NADA, comparison in power/performance. That car was an absolute monster. A Z06 would not be able to stay up(given that both had a driver of equal ability). I will even go one step further (flame suit on) the SRT is night/day from the Gen 1-2s.

 

[AG98RT10]

Jayson, having driven both, I believe a Gen II with gears will stay with a stock SRT up to about 150. After that, forget it. And the SRT will definitely out-handle and out-brake the Gen II, even with braking mods.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Having owned both, I think the SRT would dominate up to 150 even if the GenII had gears. The GTS never scared me. The SRT has, and still does. Never broke traction in the GenII's at 60+ mph (straight line, dry road) Maybe it's the run flats, but seat of the pants and my G-tech say it's quicker.

To be honest though, I can't get a better time at the local (1/8 mile) dragstrip than I could in the earlier cars. Must be the tires again.

 

[AG98RT10]

Was your GTS a cream puff? (No offense intended, but they're slower). My RT like to killed me shifting into third (!) not second, losing traction and going all over the road.
I put on Kumhos to tame it!
The SRT I drove with stock gears felt sluggish until around 3000 RPM. Guess your mileage may vary.

 

[98MODMTR]

The one I was in Sunday had 9500 mi on it. Coming out of the paddock (sp) granny shifting (turn one starts at the end of the pit road) the car put me in the seat like no other stock viper has. Believe...I am in no way shape or form talking down about the Gen 1-2s...please don't think this. All I am saying is the SRT feels competely different IMO (which means nothing) I will glady take a Gen 1/2 when my time comes.

 

[98MODMTR]

I normally run at Maryland International Raceway, the only IHRA track in my area. As you may know the NHRA limit is 12.000. Under that and you get the boot. MIR is annual host of the IHRA nationals for this region. So their timing equipment is certified.

My 02 Z06 has a best pass bone stock(zero mod; and stock original tires) of 11.81. Slip It has a bunch of passes in the 11.8s and 11.9s.

I had the opportunity to run my my car (bone stock EXCEPT drag radials and a cold air intake; 363 rwhp and 350 rwtq) at one of Jason Heffner's private track rentals (Maryland International Raceway; November 15, 2002) for some of his Viper customers and others.

So we had a bunch of Gen 1 and 2 Vipers at the same track, same day, plus my Z06. Great time. Great bunch of car enthusiasts.

Density Altitude throughout the day was 400 to 500'. Air temp was high 50s-low 60s. Humidity was 50-60%.

So what did my Z06 run that day? Here are 15 runs in sequence with the 60' times included:

11.568 @ 117.94 on a 1.684 60'
11.651 @ 118.44 on a 1.728 60'
11.755 @ 117.80 on a 1.805 60'
11.707 @ 119.46 on a 1.704 60'
11.640 @ 118.16 on a 1.693 60'
11.715 @ 117.73 on a 1.752 60'
11.700 @ 118.04 on a 1.743 60'
11.778 @ 119.46 on a 1.797 60'
11.748 @ 119.38 on a 1.777 60'
11.726 @ 117.53 on a 1.774 60'
11.719 @ 117.49 on a 1.722 60'
11.742 @ 116.97 on a 1.756 60'
11.763 @ 116.87 on a 1.735 60'
11.766 @ 117.05 on a 1.776 60'
11.786 @ 116.99 on a 1.756 60'

My car was getting pretty heat-soaked as the day wore on and the launch surface got progressively "run-off." Jason can vouch this. Also Jamie Furman, who owns a blue GTS.

BTW, with the DRs and CAI the car has 75 passes in the 11.7s or better with a best of 11.55 Slip. (Jamie Furman witnessed this pass). My best trap is 120.54...at DA of 62 feet. Slip

I admire your Vipers very much, and they are very fast, especially in the hands of the right driver. Conversely, a Z06 can be very fast too with the right driver doing the launch and shifts.

Safe racing to all of you.

Ranger

Here you go...
http://vca2.viperclub.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB17&Number=409681&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#Post409755

 

[Snakester]

Ranger, from your posts you seem to be fair-minded, and a car enthusiast.

But the part that catches my attention from your times is the trap speed.

Locally (at my closest track) most stock (or at least stock-tired and not heavily modded) Z06s are running between 12.4 and 12.8 with a trap speed between 113-115MPH, and you are running between 117-120MPH.
Which is the same trap speed that I'm running with 437RWHP/460RWTQ.

It could be that your Z06 is especially powerful (like some of the underrated WS6s and SVT Cobras).
That combined with exceptional driving could get those outstanding times.
But you have to admit that running 11s in a truly stock Z06 is clearly the exception, rather than the rule.
I've read about such achievements online, but I've never seen anything close to those numbers locally.
Even with basic mods like CAI and DRs, our local Z06s are pulling low 12s (with 2002+ Z06s).

http://corvetteactioncenter.com/specs/z06/z06perform.html

-Dean.

 

[Ranger]

Thanks, Snakester.

I've put my 02 Z06 on the dyno twice.

Once at 515 miles after its first 8 passes at the drags in bone-stock form. It dynoed 353 rwhp and 347 rwtq, SAE corrected. So the power is pretty normal. That day its best pass was 12.16 at 116.5 at a DA of 2200 feet.

A second time, soon after running 11.55 at 17K miles. It made SAE 363 rwhp and 350 rwtq wearing a cold-air intake as its only mod. Again, average power for an 02-04 Z06.

I think it is fair to say that I've focused a lot of attention in studying my runs and practicing the key components of "the perfect run." This helps eliminate time wastage during each pass. For example, I log every pass in a spreadsheet and calculate and study all the incremental times (eg 60'-330', 60'-660', 60'-1000', 60'-1320', etc.). The goal is to identify mistakes and determine what works.

It's also true that I run on Maryland tracks that are professionally run, maintained, and prepped. One (MIR) is at 80 feet altitude and the other (Cecil County) is at about 400 feet. And they prep them well. But I have also run many 11 second passes at two other very average MD tracks with poor-average prep.

My traps tend to be high because I spend (very) little time spinning and pay close attention to the shift points, shifting as high as possible without hitting the limiter (6600). This will usually give 1-1.5 mph advantage over other Z06s running that track that day.

Finally, I practice shifting a lot with the engine off...in my garage and in the staging lanes. Over and over, 1-2, 2-3, 3-4. Sets of ten.

The goal of all this is reduce my average ET by driving better rather than modding the car. Unusual approach, perhaps. Not for everyone. But what I do.

First day at the track in a decade, in my 01 Z06...goal was to beat the car mags times (12.7X); I ran 12.47 at 117.4 in good air. Later that year with better driving the car went 12.14 at a DA of 1700'. This on stock tires. In the 02 I later did 11.81 @ 117.26.

Sorry to be so expansive. But getting good times out of a seriously traction-limited car and beating the car mags and the Chevy spec for the car (01=12.4 @ 114 and 02=12.4 @ 116) just took study, focus and seat time making passes. No magic involved. Several other Z06 drivers that I know have taken a generally similar approach with similar results.

Safe racing to all of you. No tickets.

Ranger

 

[1TONY1]

Your a few days late

direct me to the orginal thread please!

Here you go. Wow, was this thread hijacked or what

http://vca2.viperclub.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB14&Number=405131&Forum=All_Forums&Words=&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=2&Limit=25&Old=3months&Main=405131&Search=true#Post405131

p.s. It's my car in the video

 

[98MODMTR]

You the man! Thought that I have seen that car before. BG. Looked a lot better without the Semi trying not to run you over.

 

[1TONY1]

Looked a lot better without the Semi trying not to run you over.

You were there !! Did I meet you ? Why not ? I wished somebody had gotten a pic of the semi and me.....I never even saw him....I was concentrating foward

 

[98MODMTR]

Looked a lot better without the Semi trying not to run you over.

You were there !! Did I meet you ? Why not ? I wished somebody had gotten a pic of the semi and me.....I never even saw him....I was concentrating foward

Was I there? I was in the R/T directly next to you. Ya, we met...several times. I went up there with Chuck for that weekend. When I told you "the semi was within an inch..." I wasn't telling a story. He was committed to push you out of the way. LOL. Good thing you got on it when you did. Another split second would have been ugly.

 

[RT10Paul]

Wow, interesting thread. I don't want to stir the crap any more than it already has been but I'd like to throw in my 2 cents anyway

I know of Ranger's accomplishments because I own a Z06 myself and we both post on the same Corvette forums. He and J-Rod (driver out of TX) have taken bone-stock Z06s to excellent times. I've taken my Z with a couple of bolt-ons (headers, catback, 3.73 gears, ET Streets) to 11.37 which, I think, is a reasonable e.t. as well.

A couple of weeks ago I purchased a 2001 RT/10 for my wife. Two different cars, that's for sure. My initial SOTP feeling, though, is that the Z would perform better in the 1/4 mile but the Viper would kill my Z in a longer race (assuming both cars are bone stock and I'm driving). PLEASE read the last sentence again and don't jump down my throat - **initial SOTP feeling**. Haven't been to the track yet. The Z seems to rev faster than the snake and you have to bang another gear sooner. The Viper has considerably more torque (I love cars with lots of twist) and you can stay in a gear longer and feel that torque. I know the Viper would walk my Z from top of 3rd or beginning of 4th gear. No doubt about it. However, I really don't know if I could beat my Z in the 1/4 mile. I've beaten stock and nearly stock Vipers at the track but, again, driver skill may have made the difference.

I can't wait to take this car to the track. I'm really curious to see if I can put up better numbers in this stock Viper than I did in my Z.

Oh, btw, cool forum

Paul

 

[cratica]

Sorry, but read any published report where same driver/same track/same conditions are paramount to an accurate comparison. Even Justin Bell (who runs a z06 training school) can't make the z06 keep up with the Viper in ANY of his tests. The two cars are just not in the same league. Sorry.

 

[RT10Paul]

Cratica, I've read many of them. I tend to discount them quite a bit because most of today's publications are just rags. They're ****** in bed with whichever advertiser contributes most to their bottom line. Have you ever read a BAD car review? And I don't mean "This model left us a little disappointed with the 155 hp engine considering the $95,000 price tag." I mean "This vehicle has the worst handling and performance since the Yugo and should not even be considered for demolition derby." BTW, boating magazine reviews make car rags look like Consumer Reports.

I rent Atco racetrack every couple of months. Next time I'm there I'll have the Viper with me and I'll make sure to invite someone with a completely stock Z06. I'll make 5 to 10 passes in each car and see what the results are. I may be totally wrong. Who knows, the snake may run .30 better than the Z. That's why I said this is just my initial SOTP feeling about the car.

I'm a performance car enthusiast and I love to race. I gain nothing from praising one car and bashing another so I don't do it. But I'm very open-minded about this test and if the Viper happens to run better times than the Z then I'll be proved wrong and be pleasantly surprised. If the Z runs better then I'm right about my initial feeling and it's not like I'm going to put the Viper up for sale. The snake is my wife's car and she likes it. I/she won't race the car except for this little experiment.

Don't be so quick to discount the competition just becuse someone else said so.

Paul

 

[AG98RT10]

Don't forget the Z has gears, headers, etc., as opposed to a stock creampuff. Still, the Snake should win...

 

[RT10Paul]

Don't forget the Z has gears, headers, etc., as opposed to a stock creampuff. Still, the Snake should win...

Actually my Z is now undergoing a twin turbo conversion so there's no comparison. I'll make sure the Z that I'll be racing will be 100% stock.

 

[cratica]

I guess I would discount them too if they didn't say what I wanted them to say.

So... you even discount Justin Bell's comparison? If he was getting any kickbacks as you suggest it would be from GM, not DC... Even so, the Snake won and won handily.

I'm a corvette fan since early childhood, have owned them and know them quite well.

I agree with you, even with your twin turbo vette, there still is no comparison, it will still be just a vette. You can twin turbo a geo and it will still be just a geo!

 

[AG98RT10]

Don't forget the Z has gears, headers, etc., as opposed to a stock creampuff. Still, the Snake should win...

Actually my Z is now undergoing a twin turbo conversion so there's no comparison. I'll make sure the Z that I'll be racing will be 100% stock.

In that case, the Z will lose badly!

 

[agentf1]

I have driven both and thought the Z felt quicker in the bottom end as well. This is due the the 3.07 gears in the Viper compared to the higher gearing in the Z06 trans and rear. Seat of the pants can be very misleading. Using the old C4's as a comparison the L98 cars always felt quicker than the LT1 cars but it was due to the better low end torque but the LT1 actually was the quicker car on the top end. But with that being said in any high HP car it really comes down to the driver, especially when you start getting into the 400 hp region.

 

[onerareviper]

So in conclusion,

A stock Viper against a stock Z06 with equally skilled drivers is faster:

0-60
0-100
0-150
1/4 mile
half mile
1 mile
2 mile
10 mile
Higher Top Speed
etc...

Live with it!! I have to live with the fact that your stock brakes are better than my stock brakes. That's why I went to aftermarket years ago... But I wasn't posting on a Z06 forum how my stock Viper brakes would be as good as the Z06's with Schumacher behind the wheel or perfect braking technique.

Last I noticed Viper guys are not posting on a Ferrari Enzo board claiming near Enzo performance on a perfect run with a stock Viper. Or top speed approaching 200 MPH in a stock GTS. Enzo's tops out at a little over 200 and runs low 11's in the 1/4. The Enzo is faster. Period. Can you now see how ridiculous it is to argue?

Bottom line - NEVER and I mean NEVER, has any independent magazine or publication (Motor Trend, Car & Driver, Automobile, Road and Track, etc....) quoted a faster time in the 1/4 mile with a Z06 than a Gen II or III Viper. Given, some rags a biased, but all? And were talking .5 seconds and 5-10 MPH. That's not really even close.

Sorry for the rant, but this entire post is pathetic. Someone kill this post and put it out of its misery....

 

[RPlaster]

RT10Paul and Ranger If you guys can run low to mid 11's with less than 400 rwhp then you guys should give driving lessons. I'm making 550 rwhp and i don't think i'll be running low 10's. I'm just trying to say that you guys are way out of the norm.

 

[RT10Paul]

I guess I would discount them too if they didn't say what I wanted them to say.

So... you even discount Justin Bell's comparison? If he was getting any kickbacks as you suggest it would be from GM, not DC... Even so, the Snake won and won handily.

I'm a corvette fan since early childhood, have owned them and know them quite well.

I agree with you, even with your twin turbo vette, there still is no comparison, it will still be just a vette. You can twin turbo a geo and it will still be just a geo!

I said discount, not dismiss. Do you really think I lose sleep over the fact that the car mags rate the Viper over the Z? I own both cars and couldn't give the left one about which one gets better reviews because, in the end, what matters to me is which car makes it down the 1320 the quickest with me behind the wheel. I never said the Z IS faster than the Viper but that my SOTP FEELING was that the Z FEELS quicker off the line. What I was trying to get across were my initial feelings about the Viper vs the Z06 and that I like to form my own opinions about the cars' performance by getting out on the track myself rather than letting someone else form opinions for me. Have you ever raced your Viper? If so, what did you manage to run? If not, then I really don't know how you can provide meaningful input. Keyboard racing isn't an NHRA class as far as I know.

And yes, if a twin turbo Geo could run faster than the Viper or the Vette, I'd own it as well. I don't even understand what you're implying. A Vette is a Vette and that's all it'll ever be and the Viper is a Viper and that's all it'll ever be. What's your point? Each person has unique preferences and that's what makes most of us choose one car over another. It's not necessarily the ability to afford a more expensive car. It's certainly not what drove me to buy a Viper. If you're looking for the bling effect and "Rock Star" image then you should really be driving an Enzo. Now that's a unique car.

I really don't understand some of the posts in this thread. I'm not slamming the Viper but simply pointing out my observations. I WILL race the Viper against the Z and I WILL post the results with video if possible. And I WILL gladly admit that I was wrong IF the snake runs faster.

 

[RT10Paul]

RT10Paul and Ranger If you guys can run low to mid 11's with less than 400 rwhp then you guys should give driving lessons. I'm making 550 rwhp and i don't think i'll be running low 10's. I'm just trying to say that you guys are way out of the norm.

It's just practice. I must have made over 250 passes last season. I raced 2 to 3 times a week almost every week and rented the track several times (30-40 passes during private rentals). I think it's easier to learn to control high hp cars without modding them first. I didn't touch my Z until I was running low 12s bone stock. I have a feeling the Viper is going to be a bit more difficult to launch than my Z so I'm not expecting great times right away. Keep practicing, bro!

 

[DanSSull]

Hey I signed up so I can listen to all you guys talk about the snakes. I wish I could afford one but being 17 doesn't help, I restored a 1970 Chevelle and sold it for my Camaro SS, it hauls, but I know you guys know a bit better then I do. I thought I would say though, you shouldn't count the Corvette out on anything. Although personally I prefer the Viper, those modded vettes' seem unbeatable at times. Ever seen the Ligenfelter 427 twin turbo? 8.95 with a 6 speed is pretty sweet. Not that it isn't possible in the Viper, but some of those Corvette's are mean, the tigershark, Callaway, etc. I'd take the comp coup any day, but just food for thought. Thanks

 

[98MODMTR]

Welcome DanSSull, apparently what your missing is the base line facts. The age old argument of my car is faster than yours. I drive a bone stock vette on the weekends. I know for a fact that a bone stock viper Gen I, II, or III would eat it up one end and down the other. However, back to the facts. A bone stock viper is faster than a bone stock Z06. Mod for mod on each car would still keep the viper ahead. There is no replacement for displacement. I really don't know why this is still being argued. Some people just can't let go I assume.

 

[RT10Paul]

Ever seen the Ligenfelter 427 twin turbo? 8.95 with a 6 speed is pretty sweet.

Correction, the LPE car you're talking about was an automatic C5 not a 6 speed. And, to the best of my knowledge, they haven't been able to repeat or beat the 8.95 e.t. Stuff like that really doesn't impress me a whole lot because it's a "one-off." Build a car that will consistently and reliably run 8s and I'll start bowing towards Indiana. No disrespect to LPE whatsoever because they turn out plenty of fast and reliable cars but this one was clearly a "hey, let's pump a lot of money into this car and see if it'll go 8s."

I'm waiting for someone to run 8s on a supercharged or turbocharged 346. Now THAT would be a pretty cool accomplishment.