SNAKOIL VA
Enthusiast
Not a good day for this one.
http://www.microworks.net/dave/viper.html
http://www.microworks.net/dave/viper.html
Viper Wreck at PIR
- Thread starter SNAKOIL VA
- Start date
jimandela
Enthusiast
Poor Mr. Xxxxxx. At least this was part of a driving school.. In this instance I believe insurance will cover the damages. Hats off to the guys who do this for a living and to all the track workers and instructors.
Best wishes
Best wishes
Hoosier Daddy
Enthusiast
Another reason not to run in Nascar ovals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bad_Byte
Enthusiast
I was thinking it's another good reason NOT to downshift from 4th to 2nd at 100mph before braking.
XLR8
Enthusiast
I was there and saw the wreck. It was TERRIBLE. His insurance is paying for the repairs. The estimate was $50000 but the insurance was going to total it so the body shop made it $48000 so it would be repaired. The scary part is that there will be nothing on the title about the repairs so they can sell it as never being wrecked. Buyer beware!!
Tiepilot
Enthusiast
I think I would much rather have the car totaled than repaired because it will never be "right". The poor guy that has busted his bottom to buy a Viper and gets this one will now get a screwed up car.
malcoll
Enthusiast
I think top speed in 2nd is 80-90MPH........
Also, I agree.... total the car... that way no one else suffers the realization that they unknowingly bought a severly wrecked Viper.
Would that collision have bent the frame so severely that a new frame would be warranted?
OUCH!!!!
Lance
Also, I agree.... total the car... that way no one else suffers the realization that they unknowingly bought a severly wrecked Viper.
Would that collision have bent the frame so severely that a new frame would be warranted?
OUCH!!!!
Lance
GTS Bruce
Enthusiast
Cut off the bent pieces.Weld in straight pieces.Could end up being straighter than the original if done correctly. Bruce
Vreracing
Enthusiast
The instructor said something interesting.
He mentioned that if the driver had not turned the wheels to correct the slide they would have not hit the wall.
I guess in the millisecond or two that he had to decide what to do, do you really think he could have thought to turn with the spin?
The last driving school I did was with a Porsche. Vic Elford was the instructor. He said, in a panic push in the clutch, the brake, hold the wheel straight and then prey.
Its hard when someone has a wreck. I'm sure as an instructor you have to take a certain amount for granted. I got yelled at by Derek Bell of all people for doing the very same thing. I let the clutch out in second with about 800rpm on the tach. Since it was a 944turbo not much happened except for a little hearing loss from Derek blowing his stack.
He mentioned that if the driver had not turned the wheels to correct the slide they would have not hit the wall.
I guess in the millisecond or two that he had to decide what to do, do you really think he could have thought to turn with the spin?
The last driving school I did was with a Porsche. Vic Elford was the instructor. He said, in a panic push in the clutch, the brake, hold the wheel straight and then prey.
Its hard when someone has a wreck. I'm sure as an instructor you have to take a certain amount for granted. I got yelled at by Derek Bell of all people for doing the very same thing. I let the clutch out in second with about 800rpm on the tach. Since it was a 944turbo not much happened except for a little hearing loss from Derek blowing his stack.
ewave
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GTS Bruce:
Cut off the bent pieces.Weld in straight pieces.Could end up being straighter than the original if done correctly. Bruce
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Does this include regalvanizing the frame so it won't rust five or ten years later? Or just painting it black so it looks good when inspected once right after the repair?
Cut off the bent pieces.Weld in straight pieces.Could end up being straighter than the original if done correctly. Bruce
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Does this include regalvanizing the frame so it won't rust five or ten years later? Or just painting it black so it looks good when inspected once right after the repair?
John Johns
Enthusiast
I ran an event at PIR a couple of years ago and turn 1 was scary even without a downshift error with concrete on both sides and a transition from banked oval to flat infield. Give me a real roadcourse any day.
Fast Freddy
Enthusiast
this guy simply does not know how 2 drive a car. i have road raced 2 different kinds of cars at this track. the proper procedure 4 this transition is 2 late brake hard in a straight line in advance of turning into the transition (4 me this occurs at 125 mph). as u turn in u trail brake the car. as soon as u get off the oval onto the infield u down shift 1 gear (4 me this is a 4-3 shift). i am now doing 90 mph as i head for the next left hand turn. this process take about 4 seconds. by the way my lap times at this track were in the 1 minute 10 second range, the cars i was driving back then were a bit slower than my acr which i have yet 2 take there. i would appreciate if someone could tell me what kind of lap times they are turning there with their viper.
Yep, this one has me irate.
the instructor wrote."<FONT COLOR="Blue">and if Mr. Xxxxxxxx had moved the wheel slightly <u>with the direction of the spin </u>to bring the nose back around <u>rather than into the spin </u>try and stop it we would have (missed the wall)</FONT c>"
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>I take the instructors statement to mean that if the driver had turned the wheel left (the direction of the spin) they would have missed the wall. Wouldn't that have just spun the car more?
<LI>"he put in the clutch and I believe went down from fourth to third and then second and let out the clutch " "I Believe?"
<LI>"As it were we hit with a glancing blow " Yeah, I'd call that a "Glancing" blow---not
<LI>null
[/list]
I was there. too. First hand. Very sad and very quick.
You know, great instructors are invaluable and some instructors get less than desired results. Then they play the C-Y-A line.
If the student-owner of the vehicle wants to post such a report, fine - it was his car. But while this sequence may have some value to teach in a class at PIR or submit to ASRA, for an instructor to post this "report" on the web smacks of a self-serving, "I did everything right", junk attitude. It's a false justification to reason it will keep others from doing the same thing - to post this report is sensationalism at it's worst and inappropriate to come from an instructor.
Fact is a novice student wrecked his car with this instructor along side. Sean didn't post the crash he was involved in, nor did he give report "for others benefit". I don't ever recall any of Skip's instructors posting such a "report" and doubt he would support such a thing. They're too Classy and responsible. Just like most instructors wouldn't want others to post such an incident, let alone promote it themselves.
I doubt we'll see Riddle as a Viper Days instructor here this spring.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vreracing:
The instructor said something interesting.
He mentioned that if the driver had not turned the wheels to correct the slide they would have not hit the wall.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Marv S on 01-07-2003 at 06:46 PM</font>
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<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>I take the instructors statement to mean that if the driver had turned the wheel left (the direction of the spin) they would have missed the wall. Wouldn't that have just spun the car more?
<LI>"he put in the clutch and I believe went down from fourth to third and then second and let out the clutch " "I Believe?"
<LI>"As it were we hit with a glancing blow " Yeah, I'd call that a "Glancing" blow---not
<LI>null
[/list]
You must be registered for see images
I was there. too. First hand. Very sad and very quick.
You know, great instructors are invaluable and some instructors get less than desired results. Then they play the C-Y-A line.
If the student-owner of the vehicle wants to post such a report, fine - it was his car. But while this sequence may have some value to teach in a class at PIR or submit to ASRA, for an instructor to post this "report" on the web smacks of a self-serving, "I did everything right", junk attitude. It's a false justification to reason it will keep others from doing the same thing - to post this report is sensationalism at it's worst and inappropriate to come from an instructor.
Fact is a novice student wrecked his car with this instructor along side. Sean didn't post the crash he was involved in, nor did he give report "for others benefit". I don't ever recall any of Skip's instructors posting such a "report" and doubt he would support such a thing. They're too Classy and responsible. Just like most instructors wouldn't want others to post such an incident, let alone promote it themselves.
I doubt we'll see Riddle as a Viper Days instructor here this spring.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vreracing:
The instructor said something interesting.
He mentioned that if the driver had not turned the wheels to correct the slide they would have not hit the wall.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Marv S on 01-07-2003 at 06:46 PM</font>
FrankBarba
Enthusiast
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2000
- Posts
- 3,285
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Jon B can tell you a story about PIR. The first year Viper Days' ran there. contack Jon and ask him about the king of the 360's at turn 1 at PIR.
GTS Dean
Enthusiast
fargin' a Frank. You are the 360 king!!! Ol' Jon almost put my GTS in the wall before the infield back carousel.
I'm with GTS Bruce on the frame all the way. Fatty can fix it!
I'm with GTS Bruce on the frame all the way. Fatty can fix it!
Vic
VCA Venom Member
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2000
- Posts
- 6,764
- Reaction score
- 1
I'm very sad to hear of this unfortunate incident, and am also glad that no one got hurt.
It appears that the passenger airbag was turned off.
I wonder if I would try to steer into it, or reverse steer? I think my instinct would probably make me reverse steer, like the driver did. I don't know that I would have done any differently, or even that it would have helped to steer with the direction of the spin, because if you do, sure, the front end comes around, but you also accelerate or help the horizontal spinning energy, and then you would have to think about where it would end up if you go completely around, right?
edit-I've watched that crash many times over now, and it seems that the car would have just hit the wall earlier, if he had turned into the direction of the spin. (?) Also, I hope I always "feel" if I am grabbing the right gear, while heel-toeing it, listening/feeling the engine engage while matching the Rs' up, before fully letting the clutch out. I have done this ok on slower turns, but I would be just an armchair quarterback to say I would have/could have done it this way at that speed.
Anybody an expert on spinning?
---------
2001 GTS, Saphire/stripes. 1 of 86.
Colossians 3:23
<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Vic on 01-07-2003 at 09:31 PM</font>
It appears that the passenger airbag was turned off.
I wonder if I would try to steer into it, or reverse steer? I think my instinct would probably make me reverse steer, like the driver did. I don't know that I would have done any differently, or even that it would have helped to steer with the direction of the spin, because if you do, sure, the front end comes around, but you also accelerate or help the horizontal spinning energy, and then you would have to think about where it would end up if you go completely around, right?
edit-I've watched that crash many times over now, and it seems that the car would have just hit the wall earlier, if he had turned into the direction of the spin. (?) Also, I hope I always "feel" if I am grabbing the right gear, while heel-toeing it, listening/feeling the engine engage while matching the Rs' up, before fully letting the clutch out. I have done this ok on slower turns, but I would be just an armchair quarterback to say I would have/could have done it this way at that speed.
Anybody an expert on spinning?
---------
2001 GTS, Saphire/stripes. 1 of 86.
Colossians 3:23
<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Vic on 01-07-2003 at 09:31 PM</font>
monnieh
Viper Owner
Why did downshifting to 2nd cause the rear to come out? Improper weight transfer? Too much tourqe?
It upsets and shocks the car, especially one with the flywheel and mass of the Viper motor, to downshift and quickly engage the clutch forcing the motor to zip to high rpms. Especially if there is any turn involved.
(It's the only way some mustangs can chirp the tires in second gear, learned that at bondurant)
Don't downshift in a turn at speed - weight shifts forward and rear tires break loose and you spin. kind of like using the e-brake on dirt.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by monnieh:
Why did downshifting to 2nd cause the rear to come out? Improper weight transfer? Too much tourqe?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
(It's the only way some mustangs can chirp the tires in second gear, learned that at bondurant)
Don't downshift in a turn at speed - weight shifts forward and rear tires break loose and you spin. kind of like using the e-brake on dirt.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by monnieh:
Why did downshifting to 2nd cause the rear to come out? Improper weight transfer? Too much tourqe?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ChrisGTS
Enthusiast
Downshifting -- even in a straight line -- when your engine revs are not matched to the speed of the car can seriously destabilize the car. My first time at Road Atlanta (which was in my Z06), I was in the braking zone for turn 1, decelerating from probably 100-110 to about 65 (I was driving conservatively). I had planned to heel-toe down into 3rd gear, but when I revved the engine, I did not go high enough. I started letting out the clutch and the car squirmed and begin feeling very unstable. So, I pushed the clutch back in and coasted up the hill, catching third up at the top.
So, the comment above about letting the clutch out a little bit slowly is very good advice. Even only partially engaging the clutch, and only for a second, I scared myself and my passenger, although watching from the outside, nobody would have been able to tell what happened.
I guess the point is to be cautious when you're on the track!
So, the comment above about letting the clutch out a little bit slowly is very good advice. Even only partially engaging the clutch, and only for a second, I scared myself and my passenger, although watching from the outside, nobody would have been able to tell what happened.
I guess the point is to be cautious when you're on the track!
Sorry, but I disagee with you on how turn 1 should be taken. Trail braking through the bump transition from the bank to the infield has unsettled cars and sent them across the grass and/or into the wall. This turn 1 transition is made under light power, not braking or coasting.
Phil De La O / Frank Parise ran in the mid 1:06 best lap times at the race in Nov. Other Racing (not street) Vipers (Robert Dopp,Johnny "Yuma", Al Box, Bob Stevenson) ran bests of 1:09 and 1:14 and 1:15 and 1:15. All of them were gutted track cars, most with wings and major suspension mods.
.
http://www.azsportsracing.org/race/results/acs_or20021130.html
.
What car were you running 1:10 in there because I don't see an ACR beating that unless it has had extensive mods and race tires.
.
Viper Days is at PIR in April so bring it on up and see how it runs. http://www.viperdays.com/events2003.html
.
http://www.viperdays.com/phoenix98.html
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FAST FREDDY:
this guy simply does not know how 2 drive a car. i have road raced 2 different kinds of cars at this track. the proper procedure 4 this transition is 2 late brake hard in a straight line in advance of turning into the transition (4 me this occurs at 125 mph). as u turn in u trail brake the car. as soon as u get off the oval onto the infield u down shift 1 gear (4 me this is a 4-3 shift). i am now doing 90 mph as i head for the next left hand turn. this process take about 4 seconds. by the way my lap times at this track were in the 1 minute 10 second range, the cars i was driving back then were a bit slower than my acr which i have yet 2 take there. i would appreciate if someone could tell me what kind of lap times they are turning there with their viper.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Marv S on 01-08-2003 at 02:30 PM</font>
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Phil De La O / Frank Parise ran in the mid 1:06 best lap times at the race in Nov. Other Racing (not street) Vipers (Robert Dopp,Johnny "Yuma", Al Box, Bob Stevenson) ran bests of 1:09 and 1:14 and 1:15 and 1:15. All of them were gutted track cars, most with wings and major suspension mods.
.
http://www.azsportsracing.org/race/results/acs_or20021130.html
.
What car were you running 1:10 in there because I don't see an ACR beating that unless it has had extensive mods and race tires.
.
Viper Days is at PIR in April so bring it on up and see how it runs. http://www.viperdays.com/events2003.html
.
http://www.viperdays.com/phoenix98.html
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FAST FREDDY:
this guy simply does not know how 2 drive a car. i have road raced 2 different kinds of cars at this track. the proper procedure 4 this transition is 2 late brake hard in a straight line in advance of turning into the transition (4 me this occurs at 125 mph). as u turn in u trail brake the car. as soon as u get off the oval onto the infield u down shift 1 gear (4 me this is a 4-3 shift). i am now doing 90 mph as i head for the next left hand turn. this process take about 4 seconds. by the way my lap times at this track were in the 1 minute 10 second range, the cars i was driving back then were a bit slower than my acr which i have yet 2 take there. i would appreciate if someone could tell me what kind of lap times they are turning there with their viper.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Marv S on 01-08-2003 at 02:30 PM</font>
GTS Dean
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marv S:
Phil De La O / Frank Parise ran in the mid 1:06 best lap times at the race in Nov. Other Racing (not street) Vipers (Robert Dopp,Johnny "Yuma", Al Box, Bob Stevenson) ran bests of 1:09 and 1:14 and 1:15 and 1:15. All of them were gutted track cars, most with wings and major suspension mods.
http://www.viperdays.com/phoenix98.html
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I ran a 1:10.49 in my nearly stock GTS in '98 the first time I'd ever been there. I had Comp T/A 230 R-1s, PFC 90s and braided brake lines. A/C, Stereo, full interior, valid license and inspection sticker... Ron Jr. ran a 1:05.7
The track must have been truly horrible the last time you guys were there, or else your snakes are using too much aero crutch and slowing the car down.
Phil De La O / Frank Parise ran in the mid 1:06 best lap times at the race in Nov. Other Racing (not street) Vipers (Robert Dopp,Johnny "Yuma", Al Box, Bob Stevenson) ran bests of 1:09 and 1:14 and 1:15 and 1:15. All of them were gutted track cars, most with wings and major suspension mods.
http://www.viperdays.com/phoenix98.html
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I ran a 1:10.49 in my nearly stock GTS in '98 the first time I'd ever been there. I had Comp T/A 230 R-1s, PFC 90s and braided brake lines. A/C, Stereo, full interior, valid license and inspection sticker... Ron Jr. ran a 1:05.7
The track must have been truly horrible the last time you guys were there, or else your snakes are using too much aero crutch and slowing the car down.
Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder
Enthusiast
First, Glad the Instructor and Driver were able to walk away.
Car owners(Vipers) who want to experience open track driving (schools) should have completed formal instruction from a racing school that has good references. I recommend the following Skip Barber programs before going on track.
1. Two Day School
2. Car Control (1 day school)
3. Three Day racing school
4. Do a couple lapping days
4. Repeat 2. as needed
I know from experience the Skip Barber programs stress braking and shifting in a straight line. This is practiced on a skid pad in the 2 day school. In the 3 day racing school, speed is controlled and corner workers(instructors) provide feed back on all aspects of the driving line, cornering, braking, shifting, turn-in, and track-out.
Many of you may feel this is excessive but what is the cost of an accident?
Consider the following.
1. A novice driver on a track is going to be very nervous and their ability to remember a class room talk about how to take T1 or T7 is close to zero.
2. The Viper T56 and V10 when improperly used(lack of track experience or accidently going into the wrong gear) is a huge rear wheel air brake that will upset the cars balance. Two Vipers from are region have crashed mountain roads as a result of a mis-shift. Control of this situation on a track or highway depends on many variables but having driving school tools, can help save or reduce the incident damage. A Skip Barber slogan "In A Spin Both Feet In".
3. There have been many discussions regarding Skip Barber's instructors adding steering input at VOI7. In this incident I would expect that a Skip Barber instructor would have added steering as well as pulled the e-brake. This is what they are trained to do and they have plenty of experience doing the same in a Viper. If an instructor is not trained and well experienced at adding steering could be a pretty bad or good deal depending on how lucky you feel.
4. Instructors that jump into Vipers are taking a lot of risk and may want to consider talking(instructing) ahead by 3-5 seconds. Reminding the driver when to brake, shift, turn-in, track-out and limit application of power. I was with an instructors at VOI7 that stress not shifting at the high speed straight line entrance to the infield, shifting was at slower speeds before the turn. Braking hard and down shifting at the same time is a higher risk activity than hard braking and waiting until the car is slowed down so that if the V10 Air Brake is implemented by mistake the resulting out of balance would be more controllable. A racer would have completed the down shifting earlier(higher risk but earlier preperation for better exit speed) but us non-racer types need to remember that these open track schools (events) are not races and we are not race drivers.
I hate to see accidents!
The best Open Track Event "Viper Days"
My $0.02
Car owners(Vipers) who want to experience open track driving (schools) should have completed formal instruction from a racing school that has good references. I recommend the following Skip Barber programs before going on track.
1. Two Day School
2. Car Control (1 day school)
3. Three Day racing school
4. Do a couple lapping days
4. Repeat 2. as needed
I know from experience the Skip Barber programs stress braking and shifting in a straight line. This is practiced on a skid pad in the 2 day school. In the 3 day racing school, speed is controlled and corner workers(instructors) provide feed back on all aspects of the driving line, cornering, braking, shifting, turn-in, and track-out.
Many of you may feel this is excessive but what is the cost of an accident?
Consider the following.
1. A novice driver on a track is going to be very nervous and their ability to remember a class room talk about how to take T1 or T7 is close to zero.
2. The Viper T56 and V10 when improperly used(lack of track experience or accidently going into the wrong gear) is a huge rear wheel air brake that will upset the cars balance. Two Vipers from are region have crashed mountain roads as a result of a mis-shift. Control of this situation on a track or highway depends on many variables but having driving school tools, can help save or reduce the incident damage. A Skip Barber slogan "In A Spin Both Feet In".
3. There have been many discussions regarding Skip Barber's instructors adding steering input at VOI7. In this incident I would expect that a Skip Barber instructor would have added steering as well as pulled the e-brake. This is what they are trained to do and they have plenty of experience doing the same in a Viper. If an instructor is not trained and well experienced at adding steering could be a pretty bad or good deal depending on how lucky you feel.
4. Instructors that jump into Vipers are taking a lot of risk and may want to consider talking(instructing) ahead by 3-5 seconds. Reminding the driver when to brake, shift, turn-in, track-out and limit application of power. I was with an instructors at VOI7 that stress not shifting at the high speed straight line entrance to the infield, shifting was at slower speeds before the turn. Braking hard and down shifting at the same time is a higher risk activity than hard braking and waiting until the car is slowed down so that if the V10 Air Brake is implemented by mistake the resulting out of balance would be more controllable. A racer would have completed the down shifting earlier(higher risk but earlier preperation for better exit speed) but us non-racer types need to remember that these open track schools (events) are not races and we are not race drivers.
I hate to see accidents!
The best Open Track Event "Viper Days"
My $0.02
Fast Freddy
Enthusiast
marv, i used to race at pir in the early 1990's in my 1971 datsun 240. larry pond used to have a club called the shelby club. pre nasa days. that club has now become www.proautosports.com. yeah i know what your thinking. why would larry let a measly datsun 240-z race against shelby cobras and mustangs, etc. well as u can c i put up a noble challenge in my lil ol' datsun 240-z. as did all the corvettes and various other foreign cars he used to let race there too. as the lap times i generated were 1:10 seconds. unfortunately there were no vipers there in those days. but now there are and guess what i own one too. so with that said i think my viper acr ought to be able to run faster than my datsun. surely you don't think a lil old datsun 240-z can beat a dodge viper. hey if u have any more driving tips i think i could use them. next time just show me on the track how it is done. i will be the one you will be following into turn 1. don't forget to trail brake.
gtsviper
Enthusiast
I can't take this any longer.
I've been reading the posts of all the arm chair experts Monday morning quaterbacking what happened in this case. I would bet that maybe 1 or 2 of you have spoken to the DRIVER to ask him what happened. Having failed this basic investigatory step, you have formed your opinions on a video and "report" written by someone who demonstrates poor judgment by posting this on the internet without even consulting the car owner/driver. (I could come up with a list of questions about his "findings" that would have even him wondering who was driving the car) I know the driver feels bad enough about the Viper without you "experts" opining about what YOU think he did or didn't do.
This was a driving SCHOOL and it is POSSIBLE a MISTAKE was made. I am assuming each of us who drives competitively had a first time. Going out on a limb, I would bet that we all have made mistakes. Sometimes we have even missed a shift or ended up in the wrong gear. Sometimes we have gotten lucky and pulled out of it but anyone who thinks it's all skill and luck or fate played no role is a fool.
This is a big game and we all take risks doing it. This guy started right. He went to a school, took the class, toured the track and even had an instructor in the car as he learned the track. He gradually worked up to speed as he felt comfortable doing so. Turns out he made a mistake and the a**h*** instructor decided to cover his *** and embarass him on the www by posting this report. Now we are doing it to him.
I hope each of us remembers how we felt as we were writing these posts with such profound observations and expert driving advice. I also hope that when you find yourself sitting on the track *** backwards with oil, coolant and ***** dripping on the track that you remember writing your post.
I've been there and know how it feels. I learned from it and he will too. With all the great advice he's getting from you, I would be surprised if he ever subjects himself to that risk again.
Oh... and one last thought...Fast Freddy...I have strong doubts that you would ever learn from this experience. Well if it involved a concussion and you had no helmet the message might get through. I hope to meet you one day so you can tell me whether I know how to drive and how great you are.
Viper ownership is like being a parent...you need no qualifications to become one. Too bad!
By the way, the car in my avatar is the one you watched on the video. It was also the car used in the Jack in the Box commercial. I sold it to a guy who was so excited about getting it that I will never forget the smile as he drove it away.
I've been reading the posts of all the arm chair experts Monday morning quaterbacking what happened in this case. I would bet that maybe 1 or 2 of you have spoken to the DRIVER to ask him what happened. Having failed this basic investigatory step, you have formed your opinions on a video and "report" written by someone who demonstrates poor judgment by posting this on the internet without even consulting the car owner/driver. (I could come up with a list of questions about his "findings" that would have even him wondering who was driving the car) I know the driver feels bad enough about the Viper without you "experts" opining about what YOU think he did or didn't do.
This was a driving SCHOOL and it is POSSIBLE a MISTAKE was made. I am assuming each of us who drives competitively had a first time. Going out on a limb, I would bet that we all have made mistakes. Sometimes we have even missed a shift or ended up in the wrong gear. Sometimes we have gotten lucky and pulled out of it but anyone who thinks it's all skill and luck or fate played no role is a fool.
This is a big game and we all take risks doing it. This guy started right. He went to a school, took the class, toured the track and even had an instructor in the car as he learned the track. He gradually worked up to speed as he felt comfortable doing so. Turns out he made a mistake and the a**h*** instructor decided to cover his *** and embarass him on the www by posting this report. Now we are doing it to him.
I hope each of us remembers how we felt as we were writing these posts with such profound observations and expert driving advice. I also hope that when you find yourself sitting on the track *** backwards with oil, coolant and ***** dripping on the track that you remember writing your post.
I've been there and know how it feels. I learned from it and he will too. With all the great advice he's getting from you, I would be surprised if he ever subjects himself to that risk again.
Oh... and one last thought...Fast Freddy...I have strong doubts that you would ever learn from this experience. Well if it involved a concussion and you had no helmet the message might get through. I hope to meet you one day so you can tell me whether I know how to drive and how great you are.
Viper ownership is like being a parent...you need no qualifications to become one. Too bad!
By the way, the car in my avatar is the one you watched on the video. It was also the car used in the Jack in the Box commercial. I sold it to a guy who was so excited about getting it that I will never forget the smile as he drove it away.
picflight
Enthusiast
Amen!!
You made excellent points gtsviper, we learn from our mistakes and we all make them.
You made excellent points gtsviper, we learn from our mistakes and we all make them.
Sonny 00 GTS ACR
Enthusiast
Fortunately, everyone walked away from this one. The insurance company is dealing with the car, and the rest of us are left to speculate about it because: A) We feel bad for the person involved, or B) We would like to learn from the experience to reduce the chance that it happens to us or anyone else.
Constructive comments and analysis in this case, no matter how speculative, are useful because they make us think and ultimately learn more about situations that are quite serious.
I do feel bad when anyone has an accident and unfortunately some lessons do come at a higher price. But I hope this doesn't discourage the driver involved or anyone else from realizing their potential. The primary focus of any driving school is to keep you safe while you learn.
That being said;
From the looks of the video clip this happened very fast.
When someone downshifts improperly as in this case, it isn't the weight transfer or the unsettling of the car that poses the major problem, but the locking of the rear wheels. When this occurs in a turn, it instantly leaves the front wheels with all the grip and the car swaps ends. If the situation is realized quickly enough and the clutch depressed, the rear wheels will roll again and a steering correction may salvage the deal.
When students are advised to "put both feet in" and ride out an event, it is usually the best advice. More serious problems occur when someone tries to "save" a situation that is too far gone. I have seen many accidents where people have hooked into a wall on the inside of a turn as the car snaps back after a late steering correction, where there was nothing to hit if they had just spun off the track in the direction they started off in.
The video shows the car hitting the inside wall head on, but it was a still a glancing blow as demonstrated by the direction of the resulting energy spinning the car further down the track after impact. Had the inexperienced student made an improper steering correction, the car might have hooked back up the track to the outside wall and possibly had a much more serious impact because the energy would have been more focused in that one direction. Who knows?
My point is that with limited ability and experience, students are still better off following the recommended safety procedures that driving programs attempt to teach. The comments by the instructor may have been what he thought he himself could have done at the time, but probably not what the student should have attempted.
Constructive comments and analysis in this case, no matter how speculative, are useful because they make us think and ultimately learn more about situations that are quite serious.
I do feel bad when anyone has an accident and unfortunately some lessons do come at a higher price. But I hope this doesn't discourage the driver involved or anyone else from realizing their potential. The primary focus of any driving school is to keep you safe while you learn.
That being said;
From the looks of the video clip this happened very fast.
When someone downshifts improperly as in this case, it isn't the weight transfer or the unsettling of the car that poses the major problem, but the locking of the rear wheels. When this occurs in a turn, it instantly leaves the front wheels with all the grip and the car swaps ends. If the situation is realized quickly enough and the clutch depressed, the rear wheels will roll again and a steering correction may salvage the deal.
When students are advised to "put both feet in" and ride out an event, it is usually the best advice. More serious problems occur when someone tries to "save" a situation that is too far gone. I have seen many accidents where people have hooked into a wall on the inside of a turn as the car snaps back after a late steering correction, where there was nothing to hit if they had just spun off the track in the direction they started off in.
The video shows the car hitting the inside wall head on, but it was a still a glancing blow as demonstrated by the direction of the resulting energy spinning the car further down the track after impact. Had the inexperienced student made an improper steering correction, the car might have hooked back up the track to the outside wall and possibly had a much more serious impact because the energy would have been more focused in that one direction. Who knows?
My point is that with limited ability and experience, students are still better off following the recommended safety procedures that driving programs attempt to teach. The comments by the instructor may have been what he thought he himself could have done at the time, but probably not what the student should have attempted.
kverges
Enthusiast
I agree with the comments that this mishap should never have been posted by an instructor.
As a racer, I make mistakes every time I get in my car. Most are little, from overbraking before turn in (safe, but slow), to early apexing and putting two wheels off (not so safe, but very recoverable). But I have spun many times and hit things, too.
It sounds like this new driver was doing everything right, he (at worst) made an error at a bad location. So what? It was bad luck to have torn up his car, but good luck that no one was hurt. So he learns from the experience.
The rest of us should be thinking "there, but for the grace of God, go I," not chastising the driver for some supposed error.
As a racer, I make mistakes every time I get in my car. Most are little, from overbraking before turn in (safe, but slow), to early apexing and putting two wheels off (not so safe, but very recoverable). But I have spun many times and hit things, too.
It sounds like this new driver was doing everything right, he (at worst) made an error at a bad location. So what? It was bad luck to have torn up his car, but good luck that no one was hurt. So he learns from the experience.
The rest of us should be thinking "there, but for the grace of God, go I," not chastising the driver for some supposed error.
GTS Dean
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sonny 00 GTS ACR:
When students are advised to "put both feet in" and ride out an event, it is usually the best advice. More serious problems occur when someone tries to "save" a situation that is too far gone. I have seen many accidents where people have hooked into a wall on the inside of a turn as the car snaps back after a late steering correction, where there was nothing to hit if they had just spun off the track in the direction they started off in.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK Sonny,
Picture this scenario at the Kink at Road America. Which wall would you choose? (been there, done that) In my case, it was a throttle steer correction at track-out after a tire pressure adjustment. I breathed the throttle just a bit too abrubtly and went to the inside, but it didn't hurt.
When students are advised to "put both feet in" and ride out an event, it is usually the best advice. More serious problems occur when someone tries to "save" a situation that is too far gone. I have seen many accidents where people have hooked into a wall on the inside of a turn as the car snaps back after a late steering correction, where there was nothing to hit if they had just spun off the track in the direction they started off in.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK Sonny,
Picture this scenario at the Kink at Road America. Which wall would you choose? (been there, done that) In my case, it was a throttle steer correction at track-out after a tire pressure adjustment. I breathed the throttle just a bit too abrubtly and went to the inside, but it didn't hurt.
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