Water/**** Injection VS. Timing Retard for Ping

Jim Wilson

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 25, 2002
Posts
705
Reaction score
0
Location
Chandler, AZ, USA
I posted this in the Tuning section, but haven't received any replies, so I thought it might get more attention in this forum.......

There are various size nozzles for water/**** injection. How does one know when to limit the quantity of water/**** injection and turn to retarding timing instead to eliminate pinging?

I would think there is a crossover point to feeding more water/**** into your intake verses pulling timing out for optimal power.:dunno:
 

Schulmann

Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Posts
1,618
Reaction score
0
Location
Canada
It depends on how you use it. I presume you will use it on your Viper (and not Subaru) and you will use a VEC to calibrate your fuel/ignition/water.

On Gen2 Vipers it's primary purpose is to act as a chimical intercooler. Your boost level will also increase by 10-20%. So you reduce intake temperature and you increase boost level.

For instance:
  • Intake temperature drops from 160F to 110F. (I had 180F thermostate and Roe cooling duct). That's a fantastic result. This is very important for higher boost superchargers in order to reduce knocking.
  • Boost goes up from 7psi to 9psi. There is also a sealing effect.
The quantity of W/M is tuned through the VEC. There is no need to change the injectors.
Use the charts in the Roe W/M kit to start. Usually there is not much to change in the W/M quantity.
Once you have the W/M chart it stays like that for a long periode. You rather play with ignition and fuel.
When you are bored with Fuel and ignition tuning you will return to W/M tuning.
I had a couple of custom W/M adjustments but rarely I tuned them.

Timing adjustement is the big challange. You will have to rely on your ears as the Viper does't have knock sensors. Roe gives you very good base timing charts. Usually you adjust 2-3 degrees around those values depending on: outside temperature, fuel quality (93 oct is not the same everywhere, I can certify this), driving style so on.

The weakness in the GEN2 Vipers is the ageing PCM. Many cars with advanced PCMs can easily achive 8-12psi boost because of the built-in ignition tuning features.

If I was you I would set very conservatively my ignition on a Viper so you are always on the safe side. Fortunately it is easy to hear detonations in the engin. In addition there is not much HP to gain from ignition tuning. It is better to loose 20HP from 650hp than break your engin. Whereas adjusting your AFR by just 0.5 you can gain 50hp !

HP is gained mainly by leaning out your AFR. When you add too much W/M you also loose considerable amount of power. W/M helps to lean out your AFR without causing detonation by reducing intake temperature.

Start your target AFR at 11.5. Then once you get familiar with tuning lean it out to 12.0. Add W/M in the rpm and boost ranges where you hear detonation then mesure your power gain. If you loose power try to retard ignition and reduce maybe W/M. The best is test everything yourself.

There are a couple of tuning exemple in the Roe W/M kit. Basically when you add W/M you can "advance" your ignition. That's the start. In my case I used w/m to increase boost level and reduce intake temperature. It allowed me to run leaner without knocking. The idea is to get more power without altering the ignition. It is a real science to tune the Vipers. There is no magical procedure. You have to learn it by tuning your own Viper. Sean Roe has so much experience that he is able to tune your car by phone or fax.

Fine tuning the Viper is a time consumming task since the PCM doesn't have automated advanced features to adjust timing and AFR. The timing and AFR features are very basic in the PCM. Fortunately the VEC is a great tool. It is the best "video game" that you can have. It is likely the most expensive too. I have spent a lot of early mornings on the hwy speeding and tuning my Viper. I managed to pool 600rwp from the 6.5lb pulley on street fuel ! However that was a record for chatting.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
J

Jim Wilson

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 25, 2002
Posts
705
Reaction score
0
Location
Chandler, AZ, USA
Thanks for the reply Schulmann, good info regarding temperature. I’m running a DLM setup and have the W/M setup sitting in my garage. The VEC-2 PWM is controlling the 4 additional fuel injectors and the W/M setup has it’s own controller. Just didn’t have a feel for the proper W/M ratio if I decide to install it. The temperature variations here (110 in the summer to 65 in the winter) are wreaking havoc with the tune. I need to re-tune it frequently depending on temperature and maybe using the W/M system will reduce the sensitivity of the temp variations. Like you mentioned, I need to experiment with it.

Hey Phil, nope still no dyno…. just been tuning with the wideband on the street early in the mornings. How’s your beast coming along???
 

Joseph Dell

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
3,463
Reaction score
0
Location
Atlanta, GA 30338
Methanol has a high octane rating so if you are using a 50/50 mix rather than washer fluid, you can actually use it to address fuel requirements. especially fuel limitations. basically, use it as a fuel.

Any time you retard the timing you will lose some power. So the best thing to do is to find a way to let the cylinders burn at their optimum burn rate. add methanol to support this activity. That gets you max power. If all you care about is the intercooling affect, then this is a different story.

something like that...

PS - people read the tuning section?? :p

JD
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
153,647
Posts
1,685,252
Members
18,227
Latest member
Kkustelski
Top