Water Wetter-Bad for engine???

[Motor City Mad Man]

I have read for the last 2 years about all you guys putting water wetter in your Viper's cooling system. So yesterday I got some and poured a bottle in my overflow bottle. Then, today I am reading a post from a few weeks ago where someone had to have their engine in for a rebuild and claims the guy at Arrow said he sees a lot of engine corrosion with people that use water wetter. Granted the person was just using water and water wetter without any coolant mixed in, but is there a reason for me to worry? I am seriously considering getting at my overflow bottle and dumping the water wetter out of the system since it has not entered the rest of the cooling system yet. What do you guys think? I don't think I want to take a chance on corroding my engine just to get my engine 8 degrees cooler. I hear all these stories of people having their Viper engines in for rebuilds and I wonder if somehow the rampant use of water wetter could be contributing.

 

[Janni]

PERSONAL OPINION FOLLOWS:

Granted, water and Water Wetter only (no coolant) is the best performing coolant mixture - i.e. best temperatures. HOWEVER, it does absolutely nothing to protect your radiator and other aluminum (engine...) from corrosion.

I want the corrosion protection of the coolant and would not run without it. Adding the Water Wetter should not diminish the corrosion protection qualities of the coolant, only improve cooling - albeit not to the same extent of a pure water and Water Wetter mix.

Where is our Fluids Geek when we need him???

 

[Motor City Mad Man]

Any other thoughts out there? I also read a post where someones head gasket went on them a few days after first using water wetter. I am afraid if I use it that maybe 2-3 years down the road I may develop a problem because of it.

 

[Vip-RT10]

From what I understand, what water-wetter does is actually increase the boiling point of the coolant by maintaing it at that desired temp for longer, so it doesn't heat up as fast. I may be wrong, but chemistry people should know the answer.

What makes the rust is minerals in the water combined with the static in the engine. This is why boats have that skeg or anode as a sacrificial element. For this reason I use RO water (reverse osmosis) water in the rad.

 

[Ron]

<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Not a chemist, but in reference to the above mentioned post, using water as a coolant without anti-corrosive additives either within or independent of an antifreeze was the primary cause of the corrosion he experienced, by far, just as Janni has mentioned.

Whether water wetter added to the problem in his case is really irrelevant as you would be using it in a system with antifreeze. If you are as concerned about it as you sound, I'd pass. Why worry about it for the little benefit it provides? You could also chat with the manufacture. Not unbiased, but you might pick up some information that helps you make your decision.
</FONT f>

 

[shifter]

You must use coolant with glycol and silicates (standard coolant). With a copper brass radiator and aluminum block your coolant system is a breeding ground for corrosion. Glycol/water mix has a higher boiling point than water alone. Water wetter only slightly increases the boiling point. The bigger benefit is Water wetter enhances the heat transfer characteristics of the water in your coolant mix, allowing the water to absorb more heat from the engine and transfer more heat to the radiator. It does work.

I can't conceptualize how it could have a negative effect on the cooling system, head gaskets, or anything else. The person who had the problem was using distilled water only in his cooling system. His problem was from corrosion, not water wetter, and water wetter has no anti corrosive chemicals in it (silicates) like Glycol coolant does.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

There are two types of coolants.

1) Green coolant contains silicates, one of a few additives that are designed to coat the surfaces of the cooling system. In a sense, the additives are "used" right away because they attach to the surfaces right away. This coating provides the anti-corrosion protection. As long as the layer is there, protection is there. Eventually it comes off, you lose corrosion protection, and the coolant should be changed, which add more silicate to the system. If anyone has ever seen aged green coolant (even if it never was put in an engine!) you would see wispy dust bunnies floating in it. This is the silicate, which in time, falls out of solution and when floating through the cooling system is abrasive to the water pump seals.

2) Pink, orange, or red (depending on your eyesight) non-silicate coolants work the other way. The additives are not "used" right away to coat surfaces, they only function to inhibit corrosion. Therefore, the useful life is much greater, and why "long-life" coolants have 5 or more years service life instead of only 2 years of service. Also, there is no surface coating, so heat transfer is better. There is no silicate, so water pumps last longer (the real reason OEMs use DEXCOOL.) It has the same glycol, so freeze and boiling protection is the same as green coolant.

Addition: The corrosion protection of non-silicates is very effective. In fact, race teams with aluminum blocks and heads, high speeds, and pretty high temperatures, have successfully used just the additive package (i.e. about 6% additive, no glycol, and 94% water) in their cooling systems.

Just wanted to point out that coolant additive technology isn't so boring after all...

 

[John ACR]

I am a Chemist.
What are the chemicals and additives in water wetter?
Let me know and I will post a reply.

 

[onerareviper]

Water Wetter Experience:

1.) Will drop temp if you mix with mostly/all water or a small percentage little bit of anti-freeze. Whether or not this encourages corrosion, I am unaware. However, there webpage says it will not. Coin toss...

2.) If your going to keep a 50/50 mix, don't bother. It will not help with temps., but I don't think it would hurt anything either.

Here is a link - redline

http://www.redlineoil.com/

Later

 

[John ACR]

Onerareviper,
Thanks for the link.
Please NOTE the following on the site:
Does NOT protect for freezing.
Does NOT elevate the boiling point.

Antifreeze lowers the freezing point and boiling point.

I am not certain of the ingrediants, but I am skeptical.

 

[John ACR]

Correction.
Antifreeze elevates the boiling point of the mix.
Sorry.

 

[DEVILDOG]

John ACR,
What is the best type of water to use in the cooling system in regard to both cooling and anti-corrision...distilled, purified, reverse osmosis ( whatever that is ), etc.?
Thanks.

 

[DEVILDOG]

John ACR,
Which coolant is better....silicate or non-silicate against corrision as described by Tom above? Tom no flame just want to see if John concurrs.
Thanks.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

No problem, DD. More information is always better. Here's a link to one of the DexCool product manufacturers. During the development of the product, several technical papers were written about better heat transfer, hopefully I can find a link for that, too.

DexCool

 

[DEVILDOG]

Tom,
Thanks very much!

 

[John ACR]

DD,
If expense and finding it are OK the RO water should be the best.
RO would be the purest water in theory.
Distilled probably the best you can get around town and cheap.
Purified water can vary in how it was prepared and its purity.
As far a Tom's statement above I agree with what he says 100%.
My 2 Cents is that the Anode Radiator Cap for $19.95 available from Sean Roe Racing is probably something I should have ordered awhile ago for my Viper.
Check it out at www.roeracing.com

 

[Ron]

<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">I propose a change of title for Tom:

From: "Fuels & Lubes Geek of the Realm"

To: "Fuels, Lubes & Coolant Geek of the Realm"

DD, you will find that Tom is one of the most, if not the most, knowledgable person on this board on issues of fuels, lubes and coolants. Do a search on some of his posts. You'll learn a bunch!

</FONT f>

 

[Ron]

<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">John ACR,

With no disrespect to Sean or yourself, my limited research has shown that the cap actually is detrimental to your cooling system.

It "protects" only in a small radius around the anode and worse depletes the anti-corrosive additives in the coolant as they try to prevent the anode from corroding.

I'm not an expert by any means, but that is what I have been told by someone much more knowledgeable than I.</FONT f>

 

[Ron]

<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">The cap itself doesn't sacrifice as there is a spring attached to the inside bottom of the cap from which the anode is suspended from.

You are correct, the dissolved zinc is another negative side effect.</FONT f>

 

[Motor City Mad Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron:
<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">John ACR,

With no disrespect to Sean or yourself, my limited research has shown that the cap actually is detrimental to your cooling system.

It "protects" only in a small radius around the anode and worse depletes the anti-corrosive additives in the coolant as they try to prevent the anode from corroding.

I'm not an expert by any means, but that is what I have been told by someone much more knowledgeable than I.</FONT f>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just bought the anode radiator cap a few weeks ago and installed it. So you think I should take it out? Any thoughts from anyone else on this?

 

[Sean Roe]

In regard to the radiator cap with the sacrificial annode, here's a link to the manufacturers website. Cap info
There's some good information on it.
If Ron doesn't want to use one, he doesn't have to

Sean

 

[John ACR]

To all concerned,
My belief is that the metal from the Anode is better in my cooling system than that from my water pump, radiator, and other metals of my V-10.
MHO

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Sacrificial anode caps have a place in salt water applications, but there are some issues that everyone might want to consider in closed coolant systems.

For the aftermarket radiator caps with sacrificial anodes to work, the fluid must have some measurable "electrical potential." This potential is measurable, but that does not mean it is automatically corrosive, since the coolant should be protecting the metals in the cooling system. Then again, a sacrificial anode is designed to corrode, so it must be made to be reactive enough.

The most vulnerable part of the cooling system is the aluminum in high heat rejecting areas (heads.) High temperatures accelerate the reactivity of the corrosion process and even small potential differences may force a reaction to occur- but again the corrosion inhibitor package determines whether or not there will be corrosion.

That does not mean that the potential for corrosion exists in a normal cooling system since the metal reactivity of the sacrificial cap is so different.

The sacrificial anode works by corroding itself, which has a couple of concerns. One is the location of the anode in the radiator; there will be no benefit to other parts of the cooling system. Then the corrosion products will likely form deposits somewhere else in the cooling system. Deposits like to stick to hot surfaces and deposits on surfaces will enhance corrosion. For the radiator this may only result in plugging. For the heat rejecting surfaces, corrosion under the deposits formed will be likely. For extended life coolants, there is another possible disadvantage: since the inhibitors are free-floating in the coolant, they will deplete much more rapidly (and lose the 5-yr protection.) They will be brought to the highly reactive anode by the flow of the coolant and continually try to protect it instead of the cooling system metals!

Sacrificial anodes are used successfully in salt water applications where there are highly corrosive salts (Cl) which will react (corrode) with the more reactive "anode", typically zinc (perhaps also a Mg alloy?) to protect the cast iron block or outboard. One could make everything out of stainless or other nonreactive metal (and they do) in which case a "zinc" would not be needed. However, in cases where the propeller is made out of nonreactive material (brass, SS), and the rest is made out of cheaper cast iron, then a sacrificial anode completes the corrosion circuit/pathway that would normally be completed by the cast iron pieces and the noble propeller.

(Thanks to Paul for helping with this one.)

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I'm always skeptical of these potions and lotions. "Just add this and your problems are solved!" But what was the problem in the first place? Overheating? Then there is a problem with the cooling system. A bad water pump (common with 01), insufficient fan (common with pre 98(?)), radiator too small (common with radical motors).

If the concern is corrosion then flush the system once a year, use distilled water with a 50/50 mix. By the time corrosion is a real problem, rings, valves, lifters, etc., face it, you're ready for a rebuild.

But it's your money.

No flame intended...just an observation...
@clarkstegal

 

[Ron]

<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Thank you Tom for your insight.

Guy's,

I wished the cap idea worked, believe me. I'll even bought one from Sean before I researched it. Looked like a great idea and was logical in how I thought it worked. I was wrong and now it's a wall ornament... no big deal</FONT f>

 

[meggleto]

I'll just throw in my 2cents on this. The waterwetter does not alter the boiling or freezing point but increases the heat transfer rate. Thus they claim the heat more easily/quickly transfers from your block, to the coolant, and from the coolant to the turbulent air flowing through the radiator. It's also supposed to have a rust and corrosion preventative in it already.

I've used waterwetter for 5years and roughly 100,000miles in my daily ****** slash autox slash turbo drag race car and never had a problem with corrosion that I could tell. I've used one bottle along with 50/50 for coolant changes.

Does it make your car run cooler? I would say no since the temp that my car runs at is determined by my thermostat. I did not notice a decrease in operating temp before and after using it since I didn't change my thermostat. I wouldn't want my car running much cooler anyways since engine tolerances are engineer for a certain operating temp and thus you can wear away your cylinders/rings by running too cold of an engine for your daily driver.

Does it cause any problems in the engine? I would say no since after 5years and 100,000 hard miles my engine was doing fine and running high 12's with 2liters, 3300lbs and no cooling issues.

As for the Anode radiator caps. If you have high current in your coolant it is because you haven't changed it in so long that there are metal particles(ions) from your engine floating in it. At this point the anode cap will help but it's not going to solve the problem of the poor car having an owner that doesn't change the coolant every Spring and/or Winter. If I stick my voltmeter in my coolant and get above .12volts I change my coolant. I figure if it doubles the .06 I've seen from some 50/50 coolant then it's time to change for sure.

I think the main thing is to change the coolant every year. It's not expensive nor does it take a long time. I try to change mine twice a year since it's cheap and only takes about 20min.

Just as a test I think I'll take 16oz of coolant and see how long it takes to heat to 100deg and then try the same with waterwetter and coolant mixed to see if it takes roughly the same amount of time. If so then it's a waste of money and I won't use it anymore.

 

[Sean Roe]

How much either item helps is difficult to quantify. Good technical data and opinions from both sides. I use both items in our cars. Cap, $20, Water Wetter $7. I've seen no physical evidence of detrimental effects from either. For the $27 and 2 minutes it takes to put them in / on, I'm satisfied if it helps my car cool a *little* better or keeps the corrosion away a *little* longer.
Either way, the radiator, water pump and thermostat are going to have to be replaced someday.

Sean

p.s.
We started using Water Wetter on the racecars about 10 years ago and I recall that we did see a 3 degree drop in water temps on a test day.

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Sean Roe on 04-17-2002 at 07:35 AM</font>

 

[meggleto]

p.s.
We started using Water Wetter on the racecars about 10 years ago and I recall that we did see a 3 degree drop in water temps on a test day.


Sean,

I'm curious. What exactly do you mean when you say your water temps dropped 3deg.?

Are you saying one day your ran regular coolant and then same day you switched to 100% water wetter and your peak temp dropped 3deg. Or was it your average temp that you logged over a continuous 1hour run or so on a race track with same outside temp and same driver lapping at the same pace?

Are you saying the next time you went to the track your peak water temps were 3deg cooler than previously when you ran on coolant but the temps/humidity outside may have been different.

Are you saying at idle or driving around town you never reach the designed operating temp and peaked at 3deg below designed operating temp?

What was the mix ratio of WW and water/coolant?

I've only been using 1 bottle and the rest a 50/50coolant/water mix. I haven't seen any change in peak temps before and after on the same day and same air temp. Nor have I seen the average temps when I datalog the car being reduced. Maybe it's because I didn't use enough or maybe the stuff on my car do a good job of keeping the car cool already.

 

[Sean Roe]

Good advice Dan.

Meggleto,
When we try things out, we usually do it back to back to eliminate most of the variables. From what I recall, we put in the Water Wetter between practice sessions, instead of during a session, where we would have had to re-pressurize the system. The water temperature outlet gauge (digital numeric readout) peaked about 3 degrees lower and ran an average of about 5 degrees cooler.

Just my experience. Not an endorsement.

Sean

edit - almost forgot to mention, we used a coolant mixture of 70% distilled water and 30% off-the-shelf antifreeze.

edit 2 - And,..... we had a 160 degree thermostat in the car (LT1 Vette). So, the thermostat was wide open all the time.

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Sean Roe on 04-18-2002 at 06:49 PM</font>

 

[snakoil]

I think I saw an add in Pegasus Race Supply or somewhere for Water Wetter WITH corrosion protection.

I'll try to find it.