What are my options?

[VJR3]

What are my options for a brake upgrade on my 1997 GTS? What I have done to upgrade is pads and slotted rotors and SS lines. I have gotten to the point while tracking the car that the brakes are not sufficiant enough for the speed that I have gotten to.
Here are my stipulations:

1. Still want the option to run my stock 17 in rims on the street. I have 18 in SSR for the track.

2. Would perfer not to cut up the rear knukles.

3. Would be nice to lose that single piston caliper off the rears. I don't like the look of it or the performance. I know about the Toms 40mm, but it would be nice to have something with more pistons.

I havent found a clear answer on moving the stock frt calipers to the rear. I think that 332mm frt rotors and 228 rear rotors will fit. I look at DBB and Stop Tech.

Any input will be great. Thanks

 

[jmasin]

May I ask when you say "not sufficient enough for the speeds", what you mean specifically?

Are the brakes overheating/softening through the run?

Are you not getting the clamping power/deceleration you want?

Do you have plenty of traction to work with?

I ask for multiple reaons... one is I do not know the Viper that well, so I'd like to understand the problem/answers more. I did personally redo my Vette's brakes for track work, so know the universal stuff, just not Viper specific yet.

Cheers.

 

[VJR3]

May I ask when you say "not sufficient enough for the speeds", what you mean specifically?

Are the brakes overheating/softening through the run?

Are you not getting the clamping power/deceleration you want?

Do you have plenty of traction to work with?

Just not enough braking power.

 

[jmasin]

What pads are you running?

If you have plenty of traction available, then maybe move to a track or full race pad? On my vette I needed to stick to the 17" fronts I had so went with a 6-piston wilwood and race pads. My ears would pop at threshold. More smaller pistons will provide more brake pressure (higher pressure/sq in of piston) but you need to keep total volume the same.

Stock vette brakes are 2 piston sliders.... at least we have opposing pistons in front on the GTS.

Downside of race pads is HORRIBLE cold performance, NOISE, DUST, and HEAT HEAT HEAT on the track, so cooling becomes important. You'd hate them on the street. Can't have top track performance and top street performance all at once.

Stoptech has a set that says fits stock wheels for a 97: http://www.powerslot.com/partsapp/details.php?id=634&makes=16&models=29&years=1997&categories=22


I guess the other option is the 40mm rears, but like I said I don't know much about Viper specific stuff yet.

Sorry for all the general stuff, but no one seems to be replying so I am... hopefully some of it helps.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

First question, what pads are you running?
Second, have you had the car scaled and corner weighted?
Third, how much do you wanna spend?

 

[JohnnyViper]

more pistons do not mean better braking, check out toms website, some after market kits perform worst then stock fronts and toms rears

 

[DrumrBoy]

You're right to study the options, Gen 2 stock brakes totally **** for hard use. I can't help you compare, mine are Porsche GT2s on the front.....they work great but not sure how to accomplish the conversion.

 

[REDSLED]

What type of tires do you run and how old are they? Brakes need sticky tires to do their job on the track. I

 

[jmasin]

Brakes are all about weakest link.

So what is the primary weakness of Gen II brakes? I don't know, I'm still learning this car, but without knowing the primary weakness it's hard to improve things.

F/R balance?
Clamping force?
Braking torque?
heat related fade?
caliper spreading?
uneven pressure leading to pad taper?

You have to know what problem you're solving.

 

[VJR3]

First question, what pads are you running?
Second, have you had the car scaled and corner weighted?
Third, how much do you wanna spend?

1. EBC Yellows
2. No, where do you get that done at?
3. ? 5-6 grand for stoptechs are a little much for me. 1,500 to 3,000 I guess

Thanks for your input Chuck

What type of tires do you run and how old are they? Brakes need sticky tires to do their job on the track. I

Tires arnt the issue, I have brand new PS2's dated 2010 and hoosier R1s at about a year old.

Is a Stoptech and Toms 40mm a good set up? Or can I move the fronts to the back, calipers and rotors, and then go with DBB up front? What is involved with moving the fronts to the rear?

 

[Red Snake]

1. EBC Yellows
2. No, where do you get that done at?
3. ? 5-6 grand for stoptechs are a little much for me. 1,500 to 3,000 I guess

Thanks for your input Chuck



Tires arnt the issue, I have brand new PS2's dated 2010 and hoosier R1s at about a year old.

Is a Stoptech and Toms 40mm a good set up? Or can I move the fronts to the back, calipers and rotors, and then go with DBB up front? What is involved with moving the fronts to the rear?

Your braking performance would be GREATLY improved by moving the fronts to the rear and installing DBB kit on the front (and don't forget the proportioning valve). However, you have stated that you want to keep the 17" rims for the street.

Witth the fronts moved to rear and the DBB kit you'll have to run the OEM 18" rims to clear that brake set up.

 

[DrumrBoy]

On track with small rotors,which you're stuck with if you're going to use 17" wheels, cooling is one of the top 2 issues (extent depends on track config of course)

There're a lot of threads about cooling
the brakes (what works and what looks like it'd work and won't). I tried the easy approach (Porsche air deflectors....easy bolt on) but it didn't work. You need to grab air from a positive pressure point and route it to the rotor. Unintuitively, the fog lamp holes aren't really a positive pressure area.

Brakes are all about weakest link.

So what is the primary weakness of Gen II brakes? I don't know, I'm still learning this car, but without knowing the primary weakness it's hard to improve things.

F/R balance?
Clamping force?
Braking torque?
heat related fade?
caliper spreading?
uneven pressure leading to pad taper?

You have to know what problem you're solving.

 

[JohnnyViper]

how often will you be realistically tracking the car?

 

[VJR3]

Your braking performance would be GREATLY improved by moving the fronts to the rear and installing DBB kit on the front (and don't forget the proportioning valve). However, you have stated that you want to keep the 17" rims for the street.

Witth the fronts moved to rear and the DBB kit you'll have to run the OEM 18" rims to clear that brake set up.

how often will you be realistically tracking the car?

Damit, so I realistically need to make up my mind on what the car is going to be used for the most. I will probelly be doing about 2 track days a month and weekend cruising in between. Tracking is most important to me. So there is no option to run the stock 17s with bigger brakes?

 

[JohnnyViper]

Damit, so I realistically need to make up my mind on what the car is going to be used for the most.

ABSOLUTELY unless you want to throw money down the toilet, too often owners over build their car with no goal, what you do with it realistically allows you to set real appropriate goals. If you track often you should already know what you need to do...you seem to have the goal of keeping your 17s, your best option IMO is two piece rotors (slotted if you are doing short to medium length events or solid if you are doing long events) aftermarket performance brake pads of your choice (EBC Reds, Hawks...etc) SS lines, and Toms rears and nice sticky new tires (PS2s, Kumos or Nittos....lots of opinions of which ones are best) and while you are at it replace you motor mounts, transmission mounts, front and rear sway bar mounts with poly and get kw suspension (jonb has a great deal on them now) case closed!

 

[jmasin]

Yep, what he said

I used to track my Vette that often, about 1-2 weekends a month, and it was a boatload of work...

I had two sets of everything, tires (I ran slicks on the track), brake pads and rotors. The race stuff would go on, I'd run a weekend, peel all the rubber off the car and then put in the street pads/rotors. Oil changes every month, brake flushes every month... Eventually I stopped driving it on the street much.

It is quite funny seeing the look on people's faces when you pull up to the grocery with racing pads on... cold they sound like you are scraping your muffler on the ground LOL.

Spares are important. Bushings wear out, toe-links wear out, bearings wear out (faster with slicks) etc... I eventually fell out of the hobby for a few years due to time... I ran out of it.

YouTube - My fast lap at Motorsports Ranch

I plan to get back into it one day, but will probably just buy a out of season T1 car already prepped. Cheaper and safer.

 

[JohnnyViper]

Yep, what he said
I plan to get back into it one day, but will probably just buy a out of season T1 car already prepped. Cheaper and safer.

I'm considering a dedicated track car, i have decided to limit track events to only here and there because I can not imagine putting my viper into a wall or someone clipping me(I rather my friends and the public not see me cry). I have been watching a bunch of miata racing on youtube recently (cheap track car option research) and they seems super cheap and fun as hell....safer (not so sure)

 

[VJR3]

Spares are important. Bushings wear out, toe-links wear out, bearings wear out (faster with slicks) etc...

Do slicks do that much damage and how quickly? I'm almost regreting buy the slicks cuase the PS2 do so well on the track.

Can I do Toms 40mm and leave the frt brakes alone or will that mess up the brake bias? Or will a system like Stoptech 332mm and Toms 40mm be better for brake bias and power? I would perfer not to do a proportioning valve.

 

[VJR3]

On track with small rotors,which you're stuck with if you're going to use 17" wheels, cooling is one of the top 2 issues (extent depends on track config of course)

There're a lot of threads about cooling
the brakes (what works and what looks like it'd work and won't). I tried the easy approach (Porsche air deflectors....easy bolt on) but it didn't work. You need to grab air from a positive pressure point and route it to the rotor. Unintuitively, the fog lamp holes aren't really a positive pressure area.

I have the Porsche air deflectors they seem to aid in the cooling dept, not as much as I would like, but it is somthing.

 

[jmasin]

I'm considering a dedicated track car, i have decided to limit track events to only here and there because I can not imagine putting my viper into a wall or someone clipping me(I rather my friends and the public not see me cry). I have been watching a bunch of miata racing on youtube recently (cheap track car option research) and they seems super cheap and fun as hell....safer (not so sure)

I hear ya.

I had an oil line cut loose on the way to work one morning... if that had happened in the wrong turn on the track I'd have been toast.

Crap happens, no matter how good you are, things fail, tires go etc.

I got to the point that I was considering a cage, a HANS etc. (already had a 5-pt in the car).

I considered SM too, but man they are different. The Miata is a MOMENTUM car. I rode in my instructors car (he actually competed) and the gas pedal was an on-off switch, and it was on alot of the time.

 

[jmasin]

Do slicks do that much damage and how quickly? I'm almost regreting buy the slicks cuase the PS2 do so well on the track.

Slicks will blow you away in how well they do compared to any street tire...

But yes, they will add a lot of wear to your car. How "fast" really just depends, I don't know the Viper specifically that well.

Suspension is the big thing, brakes second (you'll be going faster).

One other thing, and the Viper guys can tell me if I'm stupid... is the oil pan and oil pickup. Slicks in long sweepers mean > 1G. The stock LS-1 Vette oil pan would result in starvation if the sweeper was too long due to poor baffling. I had to add 1 Qt (stock is 5.5) to ensure adequate oil pickup.

There's a lot to consider when going slicks... not trying to be doom and gloom, just things to think about.

 

[Dom426h]

VJR3 Given your TWO constraints of Price and Keeping the Stock 17"ers you have TWO options:

1. Buy used front Gen2 calipers and new rotors put them in the rear with the BBD Bracket Kit and Install a proportioning valve.

2. Do Tom's 40mm Rear kit (much better bang for the buck IMO)
(you can always easily remove the proportioning diaphram to get even more rear bias as long as your getting most of your braking done in a straight line)

If you want to talk about any aspects of the BBD kit give JonB a call.

Slicks? Take a step back, Have upgraded your oilpan to the higher capacity 2000-2002 one and added the baffle kit or at minimum baffled your stocker?
I personally like running street tires as i only do a few trackdays a year and like to be able to apply what i learn on the track to the street. However, i do have the upgraded oilpan w/baffles as i am still pushing more G's than stock for several reasons including;
-StreetTires(PS2, and the upcoming PSuperSport) are stickier than the PS1's back in 1997,
-my suspension is lower and stiffer than stock,
-i have a more agressive alignment than stock.

If you need a pan PM me

 

[hou99gts]

Maybe the attached graph will help. Also see Tom's site, there is more info there.

 

[VJR3]

Dom426h thanks for your input. I already have the baffle kit in the stock oil pan. Thanks for your striaght answers on my situation w/ upgrading the brakes and keeping my 17s.

1. I really like the idea of having stock calipers w/ rotors out back and a proportioning valve. Is there going to be wheel spacers involved and what DBB brakets are needed?

2. Is the Toms 40mm better performance cost aside?

Yeah i'm kind of regretting the slicks put I'll run them through this year and regroup and get PS2 or PSS.

I really like option #1

 

[JohnnyViper]

i was going to post this also....thanks for putting it up, its a great graph

Maybe the attached graph will help. Also see Tom's site, there is more info there.

 

[VJR3]

Maybe the attached graph will help. Also see Tom's site, there is more info there.

Sweet graph, looks like Toms really evens out the bias. thanks for the input.

 

[JohnnyViper]

the graph show it all, a balanced system is a happy system, sure you can put stock calipers on the rear and use a proportion valve but if you dont get the proportion right and you lock your rears in a turn you can kiss your car good bye, also you will change the characteristics of you pedal with any big break kit or installing stock front on the rears, you will need to fill more pistons with more fluid giving you a longer pedal, you will be spending a bunch more money to have increased up sprung weight the pain of adjusting the rear and never knowing really how balance it is and a longer pedal or go with toms and have a proven well balanced system for the faction of the cost and not having to worry about locking up the rears with additional clamping and stopping power

 

[jmasin]

Yeah i'm kind of regretting the slicks put I'll run them through this year and regroup and get PS2 or PSS.

Good luck going back LOL

There's NOTHING like slicks... my first experience on those was sheer disbelief that my car could actually do that (and that was after 2 years of tracking on street tires).

 

[Dom426h]

I really like option #1

The only benifit that i see in option 1 over Tom's40mm is the Added thermal capacity(resistance to fade, rotor cracking, ect...)

You can always add the adjustable PropValve to Tom's Rear kit and get em whatever bias you desire.

JonB has all the info and parts you need for option1. Another benifit for option one is future upgradability. In a couple years you might have the money to drop on bigger wheels & BBD Gen3 components for the front. Then all you have to do is readjust the Prob valve and your

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Without the extra oil capacity via larger pan or accusump i recommend running a class IV oil such as Motul as they have a greater affinity for metal staying on the parts longer protecting in case of momentary starvation
(i use the 8100series 40wt)

 

[VJR3]

So run the Toms 40mm with the stock fronts and brake bias will be good?