What to do when you lose control of a SRT10?

[TonyCool]

Ok, only two things to say:

1. As others have said "both feet in" except that this sounds easier than it really is. Your tendency is to try to save it even when it is not saveable. This means that by the time you put both feet in, it may be too late unless your reactions are very good. (speaking from experience here). So if you don't get your feet in fast enough the car stalls but still get on the brakes and clutch (so that you can restart the beast that just darn near killed you). <-- This cracked me up talk about dark humor.

2. You'll hear people say steer into the direction of the skid, I call BS. Most people don't even know what that means. You look where you want to go, your hands will follow your eyes. Learned this at Skip Barber on a skidpad. Induce a skid on a skidpad and then look in some random direction and guess what, that's where the car will end up pointing, uncanny really. Look in the direction you want to go and viola the car ends up pointed that way. Your subconscious mind works a lot faster than your conscious mind. Don't believe me? Go try it on a skid pad and see for yourself. Better on a skidpad than on the road or a track. Afraid of hitting the wall when you spin, don't stare at the damn thing!

I haven't take high performance driving lessons as of yet but I've watched a ton of videos on the subject back since I decided I'd have a SRT10 someday. In some of those videos they state exactly the same as you mentioned on your second point look at the direction you want to go and chances are you will naturally react to get the car going into that direction. It's good to see that someone has real experience of this and can attest to its certainty. I wonder if anyone can say whether the "steer into the skid" theory is right or not.

Its been real hard to save the money up to buy the car and I would really hate to wreck the car or even worst hurt others or myself out of a mistake that could have been prevented. It seems like there is a good percentage of accidents that are caused by stupidity (race on the street, drive drunk, drive over your own skills, drive impulsively or irresponsibly, etc.) but it seems that there is still a small percentage of accidents that happen out of honest mistakes, unexpected situations etc. And even though knowledge can't and won't replace practice. It's better to be in the known.

 

[brantdw]

The biggest thing for me is check your EGO at the door. When you get in the car realize that it really lives up to its name. It will bite quick. I have been in a couple of unsticy situations and managed to recover due to some skill and lightning quick reflexes. On thing I did lean. If your going to hot rod, dont rest your left elbow on the window sill. It seriously reduces the motion of your arms when the back end comes out sideways. Other that that this car is completley drivable under normal situations. Its under the full throttle surge that things happen fast. Easy into the corners. No gas or brakes. No sudden movements of the wheel. Everything must be easy if you wand to push the car a lot.

And above all. Dont panic when you fell your body suddenly get pushed up against the drivers door. Just steer into it and easy on the gas. Dont brake.

 

[Richie7]

I would recommend the book "Going Faster - mastering the art of racecar driving" by Skip Barber. They will explain in detail all the different ways you can lose control and the corrective actions to take. They explain the physics of traction and weight transfer behind different types of oversteer and understeer. It's no substitute for a car control course but at least you will understand what can and will happen if you are too aggressive with gas, brakes, steering in different circumstances. In my experience during oversteer, the back end of the Viper comes around really fast. The few times I spun on the track I just wasnt fast enough to correct it and just did 2 feet in. You have to be careful because if you over correct things will get even worse by causing you to spin in the other direction.

 

[Viktimize]

I wonder if anyone can say whether the "steer into the skid" theory is right or not.

Of course this is correct. How do you think people drift cars?? There might be some people that don't know what it means though. It should be common sense to anyone behind a steering wheel, and if it isn't they shouldn't be driving. You point the front tires where you want the vehicle to go, if your tail end is starting to oversteer right that is going to put you in to a left spin. So you coutner steer right to prevent or delay the spin. Drifitng, although kind of a fad motorsport, is probably one of the best learned skills in a high powered RWD car. It teaches you how to drive the car while past it's handling threshhold.

If you're already past the point of saving it then counter steering isn't going to do much, and could actually be worse.

 

[ViperGeorge]

Best thing to do is go to a driving school. The book referenced above "Going Faster" is very good it describes in detail what Skip Barber teaches in his school. However, there is NO replacement for seat time. I would seriously recommend going to a school with a skid pad session. You can then lose the car in a safe environment and see how to recover. Of course most schools use a sedan and you will likely have to be a passenger at some point so try not to puke. I've taught my kids the "look where you want to go" technique if they skid because it teaches you not to focus on things you DON'T want to hit.

 

[Leslie]

Be proactive...good tires,pay attention, look where you want to go as others have said!

I instruct for PCA but have been with a few dozen Viper students the last year. #1 thing I see that will save you and your Viper is to be calm in a spin, both feet in, don't try to correct it unless you are in a spin less than 90 degrees, otherwise your best bet is to 'drive through it' and get ON the gas!

Seat time on the track will give you experience in a controlled, safe
environment and give you confidence to handle your car under any situation.

 

[Viperizer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7zooRmLD6I

Stay off the brakes..and turn the wheel?

Oh ya..in case your wondering...still won the round. slid thru the 1/8 at about 140 mph

 

[02 Graphite GTS]

The Southern California Club has taken a very proactive approach to teaching Car Control thanks to my predecessor, past President Dan Everts.
In a nutshell, we rented a huge parking lot at Auto Club Speedway. The first 2 times we did it, we set up 4 stations.

Station 1 was designed to teach us how to launch our cars safely. We had Lyle Larson (ex Pro Drag Racer) from DC Performance come out and set up a drag light tree. We would line up at the light and GO on the green. The trick was to get the right amount of gas without over doing it and breaking the tires loose. Sounds simple, but there is a lot to it and it does take practice. Launch too hard and spin the tires, and in some cases the car got a bit sideways with the ugly tank slapper fishtail. The whole point of this was not to drag race but just learn how to "feather" in the gas pedal and not just stomp on it and pray.

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Station 2 was a small figure 8. It was designed for slow speeds and really allowed the driver to experience what it was like when the car was "pushing" through the turn. As the speed slowly increased and we had to start turning the steering wheel more to make the tight turns, it got to a point where it didn't matter how much you turned the steering wheel, the car was just plowing straight ahead. The typical reaction was to lift abruptly off the gas pedal which immediately transferred the weight to the front wheels which made them grab and in most cases was turned too far left or right. Result: back end came around in a big way. Saw it time and time again. After a bunch of tries, the guys got the feel of it and were able to throttle up just to the point where the front wheels were starting to push and then ever so lightly eased of the gas which allowed traction on the front wheels.

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Station 3 was a giant figure 8. This was run in second gear at moderate speeds. The basis for this was to get the back end of the Viper to "rotate" around as you came around and had to get the car going in the opposite direction. In the beginning, the guys were getting really sideways, trying to counter steer/drift around the corner. It was not graceful or pretty ( nothing like what we see in the great SRT commercials) Again, over time the guys learned how to transition the weight shift of the car smoother and kept the car in control.

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Station 4 was essentially a mini auto-x which was set up combining all the previous 3 skills in one run. Best time won.

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Our Club put this event on 2 years and since our guys were getting better versed at the drills, last year we changed it up a bit.

Station 1 was again a straight line launch BUT we did it 2 cars side by side (obviously with a LOT of space between the 2 lanes) . The cars would "race" off the line but then had to enter into a slalom track and then come to a complete stop in a stop box. This was a great drill to test their agility in swerving and maintaining control of traction.

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Station 2 was basically a huge skid pad. We had Bob Blizzard (Viper Days Chief Instructor for many years) ride along and instruct inside the car. He would have the guys take off hard in a straight line and then "pretend" to try and make the Yellow left hand signal light. As the car entered the left turn and the driver realizes that they are going a tad bit too fast, the first reaction is to lift off the gas pedal. What happened time and time again was that the back end came around. We even had perfect scenarios of the dreaded snake bite where the driver would try to stay in the gas a little bit and counter steer into the spin only to have the car SNAP back the other direction. If you haven't experienced it, it is a rather violent motion inside the car and No one was fast enough to "catch it"

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Station 3 was again a full scale auto-x and really challenged all elements of car control.

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Bottom line is this, we spent an entire day out in a empty parking lot and practiced basic car control skills. It was structured and we had some great instructors and a brilliant Club President that was willing to spend the time and money putting on this event.

 

[Twister]

Reality is this happenns very fast. Five years ago i went to acelerate on the stock rubber from a 60 mph roll on the freeway. Car was only 470 rwhp and figured at a 60 roll slammin the gas in a straight line i had lil to fear. The rear tires snapped to the right and i hit a wall to the left at 50 mph. The airbag knocked me out and i woke up in the middle of the interstate to the sound of a semis horn blareing and aproaching fast. The car started and limped out of harms way. This had to all happen within seven seconds of mr wakin up lol.


Now with 550 rwhp my nitto invois have never done this from 30, 40, 50,60,70 rolls and slammin the gas.

Point of the story is change the rear rubber and be alert and you should be fine. But you can be as alert as you want on the old stock tires and at some point they will scare the hell outta you

 

[shine]

Here's a little bug's eye illustration of me getting my ACR out of sorts on the track.

The car's rear end steps out at :37, I start to correct by turning into the skid, and the rear all of a sudden bites again (throttle lift-off) and whips the car into a 360 that takes all of about 4 seconds to complete. I was late on getting both feet in and ended up stalling it (and throwing a cam code, to boot, that was easily reset). Thankfully, nothing hurt other than my ego.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WTHTygV2Qs

 

[TowDawg]

Damn Graphite! That sounds and looks AWESOME!

I would love if the AL/TN and GA (and a couple other close ones) could pull something like this off. That seems like a blast and worth it weight in gold in seat time experience. We don't have the number of members close by like your club does, but maybe if a few pooled together, it would be a possibility.

 

[Twister]

Just gotta say that red gen1 looks amazeing!!!

 

[02 Graphite GTS]

Here's a little bug's eye illustration of me getting my ACR out of sorts on the track.

The car's rear end steps out at :37, I start to correct by turning into the skid, and the rear all of a sudden bites again (throttle lift-off) and whips the car into a 360 that takes all of about 4 seconds to complete. I was late on getting both feet in and ended up stalling it (and throwing a cam code, to boot, that was easily reset). Thankfully, nothing hurt other than my ego.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WTHTygV2Qs

Great video capture ! It is really amazing how QUICKLY the car snaps around.
Guys get comfortable with the car and get bit like this out on the street and bad things happen. Curbs, trees, on coming traffic, walls, etc, etc don't mix well with this.

The one thing I noticed at our Clinic was that we weren't necessarily learning how to control or "save" it when we got out of control, but more importantly we learned how to "sense" or feel when it was going to happen and start making very small adjustments to help settle the car before we became passengers in a spinning car.

 

[CEJ]

Take your hands off the steering wheel, throw your arms and hands up in the air and scream "save me Jesus" and hope for the best. Thats what my wife does when she looses control on the ice...LOL... ... Not kidding either..She does that. ...

Has she come to any harm, or has she been kept safe?

 

[ViperGTS]

The Viper is hard to recover because the max steering angle is so low - and you have to steer like a pro, meaning super fast to recover!

The only thing that helps is practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice,...

IF you lost control (and 90° out is way over the limit) - both feet in and pray.

 

[EXHLR8N]

Lance - thanks for sharing the Car Control clinic, which I think is mandatory for all clubs to help learn the Viper. We try to have it annually and it is always the most attended event. Last year I had one of my sons drive in it. I can't urge the local Presidents enough to put on one of these events. It is better than a track day for the beginner and mid-level Viper driver because you never really get enough straightahead speed, nor get close to any obstructions, where you can hurt the car. Your local Viper mechanic / shop will be glad to help.

That being said, 5 years ago, I went off track at Big Willow when I followed my natural instincts and tried to save the car when it went into one of those snap-like, death wiggles (it was totally my fault .... early in the morning, cold track, etc.). However, it all happens in a split second. Unless you are an experienced race driver, our reactions are not automatic and smooth. If you even have to think, it is too late.

Added to this, if you try to save the car (turning in the direction of the skid, etc.), what happened in my case is eventually these big tires will "catch" and you will go straight in the direction the car is at the moment this happens .... in my case, directly off track.

At least if you follow the both feet in method, chances are you will spin, but in the direction of the skid and hopefully lose speed in the process.

 

[TonyCool]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7zooRmLD6I

Stay off the brakes..and turn the wheel?

Oh ya..in case your wondering...still won the round. slid thru the 1/8 at about 140 mph

That was impressive. I think many drivers would have end up in the wall. I wish the camera would have been closer to the action though.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

That being said, 5 years ago, I went off track at Big Willow when I followed my natural instincts and tried to save the car when it went into one of those snap-like, death wiggles (it was totally my fault .... early in the morning, cold track, etc.). However, it all happens in a split second. Unless you are an experienced race driver, our reactions are not automatic and smooth. If you even have to think, it is too late.

Added to this, if you try to save the car (turning in the direction of the skid, etc.), what happened in my case is eventually these big tires will "catch" and you will go straight in the direction the car is at the moment this happens .... in my case, directly off track.

At least if you follow the both feet in method, chances are you will spin, but in the direction of the skid and hopefully lose speed in the process.

What part of Willow Springs were you at when you lost it? I have at least 1,000 laps there and never wrecked, lots of spins & drifts but no wrecks


.

 

[TonyCool]

Here's a little bug's eye illustration of me getting my ACR out of sorts on the track.

The car's rear end steps out at :37, I start to correct by turning into the skid, and the rear all of a sudden bites again (throttle lift-off) and whips the car into a 360 that takes all of about 4 seconds to complete. I was late on getting both feet in and ended up stalling it (and throwing a cam code, to boot, that was easily reset). Thankfully, nothing hurt other than my ego.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WTHTygV2Qs

Very interesting thanks for sharing the video. It looks like it was going to correct when you turned into the skid but then the rear started slipping into the opposite direction way too fast. I doubt the average person would have fast enough reflexes to do anything but maybe two feet in. I can see why experienced viper drivers say that when you have out pass the limits of grip on a viper you most likely won't have enough time to react to do anything unless you have lots of experience and outstanding reflexes. My respect for professional race car drivers and fellow viper track enthusiasts just went up a bit.

 

[gb66gth]

Here's a little bug's eye illustration of me getting my ACR out of sorts on the track.

The car's rear end steps out at :37, I start to correct by turning into the skid, and the rear all of a sudden bites again (throttle lift-off) and whips the car into a 360 that takes all of about 4 seconds to complete. I was late on getting both feet in and ended up stalling it (and throwing a cam code, to boot, that was easily reset). Thankfully, nothing hurt other than my ego.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WTHTygV2Qs[/QUOT


Great Video, very illustrative of how quickly the sanke can bite.

I'm NOT saying I could have done it any better but it looks like you had it caught (intial steer into the slide)but it snapped the other way because the "recovery" steering unput wasn't there or there fast enough. Steer into the slide then recovery steering input, kinda like the dirt track guy do it. IMHO
Again, I am not saying I could have done any better.

 

[ViperGeorge]

Here's a little bug's eye illustration of me getting my ACR out of sorts on the track.

The car's rear end steps out at :37, I start to correct by turning into the skid, and the rear all of a sudden bites again (throttle lift-off) and whips the car into a 360 that takes all of about 4 seconds to complete. I was late on getting both feet in and ended up stalling it (and throwing a cam code, to boot, that was easily reset). Thankfully, nothing hurt other than my ego.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WTHTygV2Qs

Thanks for posting. Been there done that. This video illustrates what I had said in one of my previous posts. Initial reaction is "I got this" and then, because we aren't pros, this turns quickly into "I don't got this". As you can see its hard to get both feet in fast enough to keep the car from stalling. It is not your instinct to do this so you can often be just a hair late.

I often tell people I'd be a lot faster if I didn't have so much to live for.

 

[TrackAire]

You've got to give the SoCal Region props, that school should be mandatory for all regions to put on.....maybe something the VCA should discuss and make it a mandatory type event.

Fast hands and steering inputs are very important, most people never imagine having to move a steering wheel that fast to correct the car.

Cheers,
George

 

[FrgMstr]

Make SURE you bounce BETWEEN THE TREES, instead of square into one.

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The actual damage to the car was 10X worse than it looked actually. Walked away without a scratch...well till I got out the car and got my legs all scratched up from the briers.

 

[ViperGeorge]

Make SURE you bounce BETWEEN THE TREES, instead of square into one.

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The actual damage to the car was 10X worse than it looked actually. Walked away without a scratch...well till I got out the car and got my legs all scratched up from the briers.

Yikes, that's a big ouch for sure. Glad you could walk away. Given that your Avatar is now an SSG vert do the pics imply the car was totalled?

 

[Viper X]

Lance,

Great post, great pics. I started our Car Control Clinic to try and help our club members become better drivers and crash their cars less often. With over 3000 Vipers in the So Cal Region, I got really tired of losing members and Vipers due to the results of poor driving. It sold out every year.

I have suggested to a member of the National Board that they consider doing a version of our So Cal car control clinic at VOI 12, spoken with our chief instructors (Lyle and Bob B) and they are both willing to help. I too would be glad to manage it, for a few practice sessions of course!

The plans for one of the driving events at VOI 12 include two auto crosses and I suggested that we try one auto cross and one CCC. We could set up a drag launch station, a figure 8 and a "free style" advanced station with instruction at each station. This would also allow for more seat time as in most auto crosses, you can normally get only a couple of cars driving at the same time. With our approach, we could get at least 4 cars driving at the same time.

Seat time and proper practice with gentle inputs to all controls in a safe environment (not the street) are the keys to success, but you do need good instruction to get you started.

Here's hoping we can convince the National Board to consider doing a CCC at VOI 12.

Dan

 

[STUGOTS]

its MUCH harder to lose control in SRT then a gen1/2

 

[FrgMstr]

Yikes, that's a big ouch for sure. Glad you could walk away. Given that your Avatar is now an SSG vert do the pics imply the car was totalled?

Yeppers. The passenger rear A arm broke loose and pushed into the frame badly. B pillar on the driver side was moved a good bit too.

 

[Bird325]

That Clinic sounds like a well thought out and executed process. I wish our region would do something like that! Greg ... put it on the list of 2012 activities and I'll bet it becomes a yearly thing.

 

[Viperizer]

I am not a very good road racer........more of a drag racer....but here's what I do...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7vQ5HL6YBA

 

[ViperGeorge]

I am not a very good road racer........more of a drag racer....but here's what I do...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7vQ5HL6YBA

Seemed to be short shifting the whole time.