Where is the heat coming from??????

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DrumrBoy

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I think your guess could be way off. You said you could touch the metal, but not for a 3-count. That would put it below what burns skin, which is 130 F.

In regards to the electronics, a commercial standard is 40 C, or 104 F. The PCM may be in excess of that standard.

WikiAnswers - At what temperature does skin burn


I appreciate your input, truly, but am puzzled over your pursuit of the irrelevant here. Maybe a slow afternoon or something....

But to humor you, I'll put a pyrometer on it and provide the answer.....if I can find the digital camera I'll photograph the pyrometer. Its WAY over 130F, but I guess I have to prove that to your satisfaction. Then we'll be back to the issue of whether the temp, whatever it is, will increase the probability of electircal component failure. Sheesh.
 

dave6666

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Explaining Viper things to you
Yes, I do appreciate data when solving problems instead of speculation, the same as I deal with in a world of science every day in the industry I'm in.

Saying one thing then another that conflict technically when you are asking how to solve that problem, makes me question the problem as it's being reported.

Another skill I have is root cause analysis. It is used in industry to ensure you are actually fixing the problem, not just a symptom.

Sooooooooooooooo, in summary, I question whether you actually have a problem, whether the heat you report is actually hot enough to worry about, and you might want to throw in I question running without header heat shields. Using the simplest of root cause analysis thought patterns says that if indeed your car has an elevated temperature in that area as compared to the other cars you say you've checked, then your car has a problem that removing that heat does not solve the problem. Said problem being your car is generating heat that all the other cars are not. If they don't need an extra hole in the hood or a heat sink or cool box or whatever for the footwell to be at a desired temperature, then so should yours not need those things.

If it were my car I would be trying to eliminate the source of the heat not finding an exit route for it. That is after determining through measurement what that heat level is. I would say your hand is not calibrated well enough to counter the engineering specification of how robust the PCM is.

Of course it's not my car, so drill the hole and let the heat escape all the while realizing your car generates heat in a fashion that none of the others do. <<--- Derived from your statements. Enjoy some cold iced tea while waiting on this problem to propagate itself to the next thing that will get too hot.
 

ViperGTS

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I have to admit I never checked temps around the PCM or the BOX next to it ... but there is the EXHAUST running way below the BOX and if you have excess heat the odds are high that your exhaust may cause the heat.

How about measuring the "elbow" or "flex pipe" temperature of the exhaust on your car and on other cars for comparison? Right in front where (usually) the cat is.
 

ViperGTS

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I just recognized that you used a VEC (now AEM)...how about burning excess fuel in your exhaust being the cause for the excess temps? And, yes, please use the IR :rolaugh:
 
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DrumrBoy

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Yes, I do appreciate data when solving problems instead of speculation, the same as I deal with in a world of science every day in the industry I'm in.

Saying one thing then another that conflict technically when you are asking how to solve that problem, makes me question the problem as it's being reported.

Another skill I have is root cause analysis. It is used in industry to ensure you are actually fixing the problem, not just a symptom.

Sooooooooooooooo, in summary, I question whether you actually have a problem, whether the heat you report is actually hot enough to worry about, and you might want to throw in I question running without header heat shields. Using the simplest of root cause analysis thought patterns says that if indeed your car has an elevated temperature in that area as compared to the other cars you say you've checked, then your car has a problem that removing that heat does not solve the problem. Said problem being your car is generating heat that all the other cars are not. If they don't need an extra hole in the hood or a heat sink or cool box or whatever for the footwell to be at a desired temperature, then so should yours not need those things.

If it were my car I would be trying to eliminate the source of the heat not finding an exit route for it. That is after determining through measurement what that heat level is. I would say your hand is not calibrated well enough to counter the engineering specification of how robust the PCM is.

Of course it's not my car, so drill the hole and let the heat escape all the while realizing your car generates heat in a fashion that none of the others do. <<--- Derived from your statements. Enjoy some cold iced tea while waiting on this problem to propagate itself to the next thing that will get too hot.


Blah blah blah. You're a little too self righteous Dave, The data is not in conflict, you simply have a bug up your a** and are feeling the need to be a d***. But hey, I'm not terribly busy at the moment so will play along....

I question whether you actually have a problem, whether the heat you report is actually hot enough to worry about - Yes, the PCM is very hot, pyrometer will get the exact Dave-the-root-cause-genius temperature. Then I'm sure the debate will turn to what temperatuure for what time increases the probability of electrical failure...a debate which I'm sure can consume 20 pages if you're not busy that day.


I question running without header heat shields. Of course you do, you made such nice ones for your car. Don't forget all the posts on this subject where many people running without shields reported no issues at all....


Using the simplest of root cause analysis thought patterns says that if indeed your car has an elevated temperature in that area as compared to the other cars you say you've checked, then your car has a problem that removing that heat does not solve the problem. The heat is the cause of the problem, the symptom is a hot PCM. The heat is from the exhaust.....and to be clear, some cars do get a hot box while others do not. Lots of factors Mr Root Cause.....header seal, metallurgy, physical geometry of exhaust/box relationship, airflow in box area....etc etc . This is a case where I don't care as much about the cause (since I know my tune is safe), I care about the symptom. Kinda like malaria, you can't address the cause (presence of the parasite) so don't worry about it....but you can effectively address the symptom (keep people with the parasite from getting sick) by taking the right chemicals.

Said problem being your car is generating heat that all the other cars are not. If they don't need an extra hole in the hood or a heat sink or cool box or whatever for the footwell to be at a desired temperature, then so should yours not need those things. Now shame on you Mr Scientific method. Where's your rigor? This statement is only true if all other variables among the comparison group are the same. My engine build is different than some other cars right? I have a different fascia than some other cars, and a brake cooling system that changes underhood airflow pattern considerably. And so forth.....we all know that these cars respond differently to mods and that modding them often requires getting stuff rebalanced - so don't hand us the "other cars don't need it so why should yours?" line.

If it were my car I would be trying to eliminate the source of the heat not finding an exit route for it. Taken literally as you, Mr Root cause seem to be fond of, the source of the heat is combustion of fuel in the engine. Are you indeed suggesting that I should remove the engine to solve this problem? I bet it'd work.....the box would never be hot again.

I would say your hand is not calibrated well enough to counter the engineering specification of how robust the PCM is. Probably not. But I'd bet my hand is calibrated better than your Googling skills that came up with the 130 degrees burns skin data. As i say, when i get back to the car, I'll put a pyrometer on it and we'll see, until then this is a senseless academic debate.

So Dave, relax and go bother someone else.
 
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aggie2000

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The above posts had me cracking up! Anyway, just wanted to point out that I have the same issue with heat in that area. The excess heat has manifested itself by causing my fan relays to die on two separate occasions during high-rpm "spirited" driving with the A/C on. Getting stuck wih no fan on a hot day while out in BFE is not a good thing for that 10-holed hunk of aluminum under the hood. Both times I had to limp back to civilization in 6th (keeping RPMs down) and wait 15min for the relay to cool enough to replace it. I've got an '02 RT with stock header and hi-flow cats/exhaust.

As Dave suggests, I'm definitely looking to solve the problem of excess heat "in general" - will start with a good coolant flush and burping. However, a little help dealing with the Symptom of heat near the PCM/relays would be welcomed as well. (would prefer not to hack on my hood unless it's the only solution...) In the meantime, I've got a handful of extra relays in the trunk just in case!
 

ViperGTS

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So, during the last week and my drives with the 2002 FE GTS I checked the temp of the "box" and it is .............................................................. cold. Not even luke warm after a drive. Go figure!
 
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DrumrBoy

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I went out on Monday, drove for maybe 20 minutes... nothing spirited, just crusin' with ambient at about 85....and then put a pyrometer on it.

The top of the box was 162 and the PCM was 157 (after having the car shut down for about 2 minutes, probably not more than a couple of degrees were lost).

Lower temps than I judged with my undercalibrated palm, but hotter than 130 for sure. My guess is that when its hot outside and I'm beating on it the temps may be a little higher but I don't know for sure.

I'll report back on the effect of improving airflow and isolating/insulating the PCM.

Thanks for the ideas folks.
 

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