Who has their oil analyzed?

Ron

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<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Recently got into having my Viper's oil analyzed thanks to a fellow VCA member. Costs less the $20.00, lab provides free sample containers, sample tested same day as received and results can be mailed or e-mailed back.

Blackstone Labs

Might be interesting to compare to other Vipers in order to help identify who's engine is out of spec regarding wear (iron and aluminum), if K&N's really do filter better (silicon), what types of oils are consistently lower wear, perhaps even if a future failure could be predicted.

Comments?

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Nexus-6

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For kicks I had the 200 mile old oil in my brand new '02 GTS analyzed...I'll send you my pdf report if you'd like.
 

GTS Bruce

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Running synthetic and changing oil as often as all of us do probably makes analysis a waste of time and money.The analysis probably would tell us we change too often which we would continue to do anyway. Bruce
 
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Ron

Ron

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<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Nexus-6

Thanks I'd love to see it. E-mail

Bruce,

While I agree that most use oil analysis to stretch oil change intervals, something most of us aren't interested in, I'd think that it would still be valuable to understand internal wear rates, oil type and weight selection, air filter efficiency and might be especially interesting to validate the value of oil pre-lube systems many have installed.

Has anyone with a oil pre-lube system analyzed their oil?


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Steve 00RT/10

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I analyze mine. I typically run about 6-8K miles between changes. Oil analysis has shown it to have far more life left.
My car is Amsoil front to back--including the air filters.

Steve
 
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Ron

Ron

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<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Steve;

What ppm do you see on iron, aluminum and silicon?

Thanks</FONT f>
 

Geoff Green

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I have had mine checked from day one. I have it checked every 1000 miles and it has 11,000 miles now. It would be interesting to see the diff. between the tests at 1000 and 6000 miles. I will post some results tommorrow.
 

Newport Viper

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I had mine checked at Blackstone. Was worried about head gasket leak and wear at 46,000 miles. Everything was perfect. Good piece of mind.
 

Geoff Green

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I will post my results for the past two oil changes. The first one will be from November 2001 which is at the end of the driving season the the next one is from May 2002 which would be after sitting for the winter. There were 1000 miles on each oil change.

November May

(Physical Tests)

Viscosity 10.9 9.6
SAE grade 30 30
Fuel soot 0 0
Water None None
Fuel dilution None None
Antifreeze None None


(Wear metal, PPM)

Chromium 0 1
Copper 0 1
Iron 13 12
Lead 0 2
Tin 0 0
Aluminum 2 4
Silicon(dirt) 6 17
 

Geoff Green

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Here are the additives and other metals:

November May

Antimony 0 0
Barium 0 0
Boron 98 91
Cadmium 0 0
Calcium 983 850
Magnesium 1816 1621
Molybdenum 0 1
Nickel 0 0
Phosphorus 717 633
Silver 0 0
Sodium 5 7
Titanium 0 0
Zinc 833 724
 

99 R/T 10

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So what do all the numbers mean? I am as uneducated on this subject as anyone could get, so if you would, explain it to me like I'm six years old. Not to far off the mark in regards of mentality anyway
supergrin.gif


Mike
 

Steve 00RT/10

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Here are my numbers. 6000 miles on the oil. Tested at 19,000 miles. The oil was put in 9-12-01 and run for 1500 miles or so before storing. The car was stored and not started until 4-15-02. I then ran the next 4000 miles doing several autocrosses at high RPM. Bread and milk for me typically goes close to the redline at least once . It was tested on 7/19/03. There is now close to 5K miles on the new batch which includes all the VOI7 stuff(drags,xcross,&25-30 laps at the track) and a few more xcrosses here.

I guess I would call for Tom, the oil guy, to break these numbers down if he's around.

Steve

Viscosity 40 degrees C 10.2 100 degrees C 10.2
SAE grade 0W-30
Soot --none
Water .05%
Fuel dilution 1.0%
Antifreeze None
TBN 7.4
Oxidation 2.2%


(Wear metal, PPM)

Chromium 0
Copper 1
Iron 17
Lead 5
Tin 5
Aluminum 8
Silver 0
Manganese 0
Nickel 0
Silicon(dirt) 6

Oil Additives/wear metals

Barium 0
Boron 32
Cadmium 0
Calcium 3133
Magnesium 360
Molybdenum 0
Manganese 0
Nickel 0
Phosphorus 1292
Silver 0
Sodium 1
Titanium 0
Vanadium 0
Zinc 1581
 

MR VENOM

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Forget the Oil analyses. Most likely will "scare" you into some unnecessary repairs. Just drive the car. I do an oil analyses on my six cylinder aircraft engine, but signs of "catastophic" failure have an "urgent" meaning in an airplane, since it is so difficult to "pull over" and call Triple A.
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Howdy. It's true, used oil analysis is to monitor the oil condition so as to get the most out of it. Some diesel fleets are easily up to 40,000 to 60,000 miles and more, based on watching what happens. Doing this is safe as long as the oil type, service conditions, and engine all stay the same - which is fine for on-road highway fleets. Not applicable to pass car use.

GTS Bruce is therefore correct - change your oil often enough and the measurements indicate more of the bounce in the analysis results rather than what's happening in the engine.

Viscosity (that second number, after the "W") should be between 9.3 and 12.5 for SAE xxW-30, between 12.5 and 16.3 for xxW-40. Yes, there's quite a range, it's not a single target value.

Fuel dilution and glycol, measured at the $20/sample labs, are often not accurate or sensitive below 0.5%. You may get results of 0%, 0%, and 0.6%, which only means the first two could have been 0.4%, but the instrument used couldn't detect it.

Glycol level is something to look for if you suspect the dreaded head gasket leak.

Geoff's used oil wear metals levels are low, as you'd expect with 1000 mile samples. Iron levels even up to 100ppm at the end of drain are probably OK. Others in the fleet business (remember this is gas, not diesel) may have different values.

Zinc-phosphorus additives are the anti-wear components. The legal limit for ILSAC GF-3 oils is 1000 ppm phosphorus because it may affect catalyst life. The next engine oil category has proposed to cut this to much, much lower. In my opinion, this is a risky move to lower the antiwear additive that engines were designed around, but OEM pressure will eventually force this through. This is why I advocate diesel oils, since they don't (yet) have catalysts and may only have particulate traps - so there's no restriction on the amount of phosphorus in a diesel oil. Geoff's oil shows about 600 ppm. This is why I say that passenger car oils are only "OK" and the kind of oil I would change often. The thing everyone should think about is that this "OK" additive package is put into "superior" synthetic oils. The combination is not necessarily "superior."

By comparison, Steve's oil shows 1300 ppm phosphorus. This disqualifies the oil from claiming ILSAC GF-3 because it is over the phos limit. It can still claim API SL, since it would still meet the engine performance requirements. If fact, other aspects of Steve's oil would hint at a diesel type additive package in a passenger viscosity grade. The high calcium level indicates a high detergent amount and therefore high ash, all diesel characteristics. Add the magnesium, another indication of a detergent additive, and Steve has robust protection against piston ring, ringland, and varnish deposits. This is proven by the pretty good TBN (a sign of how much detergent is left active) after 6000 miles. Most passenger car oils only start at 7 TBN and go down from there.

Despite Steve's horseplay, the average oil temperature must not get above 200F that often, since there's 1% fuel showing. It'd be more typical in the summer to see less than 0.5% Unfortunately, there are so many ways to indicate the level of oxidation, I won't even guess as to how to interpret "2.2% oxidation." Since the result of oxidation is thickening, you might as well look at the viscosity.

One thing you all might want to do is send a new oil sample periodically. That quart bottle may stay the same on the outside, but the fluid inside will change every two or three years.

Soapbox: Diesel oils have lots of good additives. It's the additives that protect against wear, keep the engine insides clean, and control the viscosity of the oil (keep it from going up due to thickening or down due to shear.) Yes, they mainly come in 15W40 grade, but there are 5W40 synthetic diesel oils (Mobil Delvac 1, Shell Rotella T Synthetic, and others) that are about $18/gallon at Walmart. OK, I'm done.
 

Steve 00RT/10

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Thanks for jumping in Tom. I'm saving your post for future reference on some of the numbers.

As for oil temp....ya gotta remember, I'm almost in Canada. What they say here is to expect snow anytime before the 4th....or anytime after.

Steve
 

Steve-Indy

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Hard to follow Tom with anything meaningful...but, I would add that there has been SOME concern about the actual content specs of the oil as poured from container prior to usage...at least in some folks minds, including petro chem guys posting on other boards. Couple that info with the aircraft engine problems faced by 2 different oil manufacturers in the past 10 years...well, it never hurts to analyze the products in which one places SO MUCH faith...at least in my opinion.
 
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Ron

Ron

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<FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Tom,

Another keeper....

Thanks!</FONT f>
 

Steve 00RT/10

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I am using Series 2000 0W-30 Amsoil

..also for Geoff: What kind of air filters are you using?. I noticed a slight difference in your numbers from the 2 tests. Having analyzed oil from my truck several times, I know that even a loose clip or clamp..or the filter not seated quite right can easily amount to that amount of variation..or considerably more. I was curious if you ran the same filters for both tests.

Thanks--Steve
 

VIPORXXX

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Tom, as the resident diety on all oils and fluids I am curious
what fluids do you use in your Viper.

Also, is your Viper "just" a daily driver or do you track your car. I have read several post fromyou in the past and know you have been up at Pocono Raceway. I track my Viper as often as I can going to several ViperDays a year and trips to Pocono with PDA or throught the NJ VCA. Does your recommendation change if used as daily driver or if tracked???

Fast Eddie
 

Geoff Green

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Steve, I was using K&N's since after my first oil change. I have sampled the oil 11 times and this past silicon reading was twice as high as normal. If I average the readings of the previous samples it would be 5.5 ppm of silicon. I clean my filters once a year and have never had a clip that was loose. My filters have never been very dirty when I do clean them. The reading of 17 on the silicon could be from the filter, but I think there is a better chance that it was from my sample taking. There may have been some dirt around the drain plug that I did not pick up. I will see what it is the next time in a few months.

I probably should send a sample in of unused Mobil 1 to get a baseline and compare from there. This may seem a little ridiculous to some, but it is actually quite interesting in comparing the values. I am a perfectionist when it comes to my job and it carries over to other things.
 

Tiepilot

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I decided to post this from Blackstones website so most of you can keep reading the tread without having to jump over there. Now we can see what those numbers are telling us about the results some have posted.

Elements: Elements are quantified in the oil at part per million levels (PPM). This list shows the most common sources of the elements in a gasoline or diesel engine oil.

Aluminum: Pistons, bearings, cases (heads & blocks).
Chromium: Rings, a trace element in steel.
Iron: Cylinders, rotating shafts, the valve train, and any steel part sharing the oil.
Copper: Brass or bronze parts, copper bushings, bearings, oil coolers, also an additive in some gasoline engine oils.
Lead: Bearings.
Tin: Bearings, bronze parts, piston coatings.
Molybdenum: Anti-wear additive, some types of rings.
Nickel: Trace element in steel.
Manganese: Trace element, additive in gasoline.
Silver: Trace element.
Titanium: Trace element.
Potassium: Antifreeze inhibitor, additive in some oil types.
Boron: Detergent/dispersant additive, antifreeze inhibitors.
Silicon: Airborne dirt, sealers, gaskets, antifreeze inhibitors.
Sodium: Antifreeze inhibitors, additive in some gasoline engine oils.
Calcium: Detergent/dispersant additive.
Magnesium: Detergent/dispersant additive.
Phosphorus: Anti-wear additive.
Zinc: Anti-wear additive.
Barium: Detergent/dispersant additive.
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Not a deity, it's just like any of you would be able to reply about your own job.

I have a '94, bought with 20K miles, now has 55K. It's my daily driver, except when snowing, so it never sits more than a week. I live about 7 miles from work, so lots of short trips. I autocross about 10 times/year, track time 3-4 times/year, but that will go up this year. How to calculate oil drain interval? If you average 15 MPG and change every 4500 miles, that's 300 gallons. Change oil every 300 gallons. If you average 5 MPG because it's all track time, it's still 300 gallons of fuel, but less miles.

Engine oil - 15W40 Shell Rotella T or Chevron Delo 400. Either one, since the step up to a diesel oil is so huge, it doesn't matter which brand you go to. Occasionally Shell Rotella T in a synthetic 5W40 is available at Walmart, so when I get it, I save it for the winter months.

Last oil change 14ppm FE, 2ppm Cr, 8 ppm PB, 5 ppm Cu, 7 ppm Al, 11 ppm Si after about 3700 miles.

Power Steering - GM or Mopar Cold Climate Power Steering Fluid. It's part synthetic and has added anti-wear additives.

Coolant - 40% Havoline DEX-COOL, 60% water

Brake Fluid - Valvoline Semi-synthetic

Windshield washer fluid - Walmart

Rear axle - OEM Mopar synthetic

Transmission - Was using Castrol Syntorq; had a mechanical failure of second gear, so had put DEX-RON after rebuilding it.

Gasoline - With Shell converting the Texaco stations over to Shell, one of the last two well-additized gasolines is disappearing. Chevron (not available here) is the other. All those other majors, regardless of their advertising, have the legal minimum or close to it. So I use an aftermarket fuel additive treatment (that we make) just before every oil change.
 

Steve 00RT/10

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It would be interesting to see any other brand oil analysis numbers like Redline, Royal Purple.. or others. I don't think oil analysis is the end all for knowledge, but it is a good indicator of what is happening in the engine. There are many variables which can affect an oil sample and as Tom says, testing equipment can vary. It would appear from the above results that the additive package in Amsoil appears to be better than Mobil 1 from this one set of tests. I am curious as to how comparable brands might test out. I would be happy to post my test results again..good or bad..when I change it sometime next summer. There should be some all day track time on this batch, in addition to the VOI7 stuff last fall.

I have another question for Tom. The 200 degrees F. you referred to as a function of the fuel dilution:

My car was run fairly hard last summer in 80-90 degree temps. In addition, it idled for an hour or two in several parades last yr. at those same temps. Is it possible the oil was cooler because engine heat was down due to the thermal stability of the oil? I will admit that I did not do continuous high speed runs(where can you on public roads)....even the xcrosses were only 2 minutes long. Any thoughts on that?


Steve
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Steve,
I have an oil temp gauge (I took out the volt meter and used a second coolant temp gauge and an oil temp sender in the oil pan.) Gen 1 cars (10-11 quart sump) have a 220F oil thermostat. Idling, I don't think it would ever get there. Highway driving it eventually does, but takes 30-40 minutes (well after coolant temp is up.) Track use would get up there much quicker.

The oil would be cooler because there's not as much heat being generated in the lower end of the engine, but it's not a function of the oil thermal stability. It's a function of the work being done by the engine.

200F is sort of a level that if any fuel has accumulated, most of it would boil off. Also, fuel is not thermally nor oxidatively stable, so it uses up some of the oil's additives since it would try to prevent the fuel degradation.

Relative to Amsoil vs. Mobil; yes, more vitamins are better, but I don't want to make it specific to brands. Mobil synthetic is an example of "regular" additive levels in a "superior base oil." I think the additives are more important than base oil type, so I don't think Mobil Synthetic is that great. But if the oil is changed often, the engine always has "enough" vitamins to be healthy. But as a vitamin insurance policy, I would be happy with any diesel oil formulation.
 
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Ron

Ron

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****** M1 10w-30 tri compared to used M1 10w-30 tri &amp; 15w-50 M1 SS.

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Ron

Ron

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Comparisions to ****** Mobil 1 10w-30 Tri Syn, Mobil 1 10w-30 Super Syn and Mobil Delvac 1 5w-40. Does anyone have lab results of ****** Mobil 1 15w-50 Super Syn?

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