SCOTTB
Viper Owner
I just was reading that ford is going to put a TT in the mustang and the F150 on a V-6 instead of a V-8 for fuel mileage. After saying that seems like auto makers tend to follow each other.
Who would like the Viper to go out with TT System
- Thread starter Disturbed
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bluestreak
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Not true, there are hardly any AWD winners of amatuer racing competitions in the US. SCCA, NASA etc all have RWD cars at the helm and have for a long time.
I'm not advising TC for use on the track but for those times when you may do a mountain cruise, or something unexpected pops out at you. All cars are ultimately faster without TC anyways when driven at the limit by a talented driver.
I just dont think the US has a good enough talent pool of people who buy these cars and have no track experience to drive them on the streets and not crash them. Once you know what you are doing, TC goes off immediately at the track, but it's those other times when it comes in handy.
But certainly with 700- 800+ hp you need something be it AWD or TC unless you drive the speed limit everywhere and even then someone else can put you in a bad position.
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black mamba1
Enthusiast
No car fitted for a road course will utilize awd due to the added weight, and the drivers experience usually trumps traction problems. That is why the Porsche GT3 and GT2 have no awd, too much weight....But for 99% of the folks driving high hp cars, they are not trained to tame the power. Most of these high hp cars are garage queens. I would bet less than .5% of the people buying these high hp cars are professional or even semi professional drivers and can effectively put the power to the road.
It is not a coincidence that both the Lambo Murcielago and the Gallardo and the GTR and the Porsche 911 TT and the Z06 and the ZR1 and the Ferrari 599 Fiorina and the Audi RS..I could go on and on...they all have some form of traction control or awd. Face it, a car w/ above 500 hp cannot be effectively controlled by the human brain as well as a computer. Yeah, the 3:07 helps the Viper w/ traction to a degree, but hurts in acceleration. That is why the Z06 is still smoking Gen 4's w/ avg and even some good drivers, better gearing. So, Viper lowers the gear to help traction and gas mileage, while hurting the acceleration....
I love my Viper. But we are in 2008, not 1968. Big cubes and big power only make sense if u can get it to the ground...and Vipers hit a threshold in power vs traction at around 650 rwhp or so. Unless u go to Kumhos or BFG's, all that xtra power from TT or s/c is useless in any race shorter than a 1/3 of a mile or so.
We can go out w/ TT, bigger cubes, or s/c. But unless we have 4 ft wide tires, we will need awd or t/c for it to make any kind of sense.
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Disturbed
Viper Owner
The whole control issue comes mostly down to driver. T/C only helps people who can not / do not develop the skill needed for such a car. Even at that…it will not save you from yourself. These cars have always put a big bite into the asp of someone who couldn’t handle it.
The Viper is not a car for everyone. It never has been and never should be.
Has or has not, the Viper always been about being completely over the top? Power, Style, Performance, all have been over the top.
If they gave the car 800-1000hp I would say something like “Fine…give the girls t/c”.
Currently I have a bit more power N/A than the 08’ Viper, this car is a BREEZE to drive when not pushing the limits. Even pushing the car to 8/10’s the car does it easily. It’s when you push the car past that, it becomes a monster. If your pushing the car past 8/10’s on the street…you better have the skill for it. If not, it’s your fault, not the car if YOU wreck.
This is why the Viper needs more models.
650hp (standard SRT-10…they’ve got to stay head of the vette’s best)
650hp ACR (Track Bad Boy)
800hp AAR(turbo’d Exotic Slayer)
They could offer staged upgrades for those who would like to take it farther much like what they did with the SRT-4 Neon that went from 230hp to 325hp. They could take it from 800-1000hp. Those system could be for “off road use only” so they don’t have to deal with tree huggers and the US Government.
If the Viper is going to stick around, it need to once again be larger than life.
The Viper is not a car for everyone. It never has been and never should be.
Has or has not, the Viper always been about being completely over the top? Power, Style, Performance, all have been over the top.
If they gave the car 800-1000hp I would say something like “Fine…give the girls t/c”.
Currently I have a bit more power N/A than the 08’ Viper, this car is a BREEZE to drive when not pushing the limits. Even pushing the car to 8/10’s the car does it easily. It’s when you push the car past that, it becomes a monster. If your pushing the car past 8/10’s on the street…you better have the skill for it. If not, it’s your fault, not the car if YOU wreck.
This is why the Viper needs more models.
650hp (standard SRT-10…they’ve got to stay head of the vette’s best)
650hp ACR (Track Bad Boy)
800hp AAR(turbo’d Exotic Slayer)
They could offer staged upgrades for those who would like to take it farther much like what they did with the SRT-4 Neon that went from 230hp to 325hp. They could take it from 800-1000hp. Those system could be for “off road use only” so they don’t have to deal with tree huggers and the US Government.
If the Viper is going to stick around, it need to once again be larger than life.
Alexarz
Enthusiast
Try as I may, I cannot argue with Disturbed's brilliant last statement. Turbo it is..........
black mamba1
Enthusiast
What is 8/10's?
Disturbed
Viper Owner
Driving a Viper through twisty roads at 175% above the posted speedlimit.
For example: Taking a 45mph corner at about 75-80mph.
It's lots of fun and perfectly safe.
RichieSRT10
Enthusiast
Black mamba I disagree with you on your last statement. There are many who drive these high horsepower cars that maybe you are not aware of. On street tires so far I have a 10.40 Ricky a 10.41 and Klly a 10.45. I have seen my buddy Jerrys car go a 8.75 on the track and then he drove 1200 miles back to Texas and he smoked everything he ran into.
This past Saturday I went to Bradenton track and enjoyed the high speed drive on the interstate to get there(130 miles). Had 2 runs against a so called much faster AC Cobra then my Viper. The car was from the store Shelby of TampaBay. Long story short he lost both races. I even brought my on Cheerleader.
Phil I know you like her belly already!!!
Now back to the story
I met a group of guys at the track and we left together. They were talking **** and were younger then me so it was all cool. I remember those days. There was a C5 that had a S/C and they would not say what the C6 ZO6 had except that from a roll I was dead meat. Well we drove 9 miles to the interstate and I could see them getting their cameras ready to record this Viper kill. They were right. The Viper slayed them. Once we were on I75 they were quickly humbled. We all exited in Tampa and had some laughs and talked about the cars. Then I continued home with a huge smile. I am sure a video will pop up soon.
This past Saturday I went to Bradenton track and enjoyed the high speed drive on the interstate to get there(130 miles). Had 2 runs against a so called much faster AC Cobra then my Viper. The car was from the store Shelby of TampaBay. Long story short he lost both races. I even brought my on Cheerleader.
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Phil I know you like her belly already!!!
Now back to the story
I met a group of guys at the track and we left together. They were talking **** and were younger then me so it was all cool. I remember those days. There was a C5 that had a S/C and they would not say what the C6 ZO6 had except that from a roll I was dead meat. Well we drove 9 miles to the interstate and I could see them getting their cameras ready to record this Viper kill. They were right. The Viper slayed them. Once we were on I75 they were quickly humbled. We all exited in Tampa and had some laughs and talked about the cars. Then I continued home with a huge smile. I am sure a video will pop up soon.
VENOMAHOLIC
Enthusiast
Personally, I vote NO on TT. I think the aftermarket like Heffner, RSI, Underground, etc does a great job modding the Viper after reading the satisfied TT Viper owners comments on this site. Leaving TT to the aftermarket is more cost effective for Chrysler as a whole especially since the NA Viper takes cutting edge tech to keep it passing emissions as it is.
Smaller displacement engines need forced induction to keep up with the Viper. All of them are more complex and less reliable as the miles add on. Part of the reason the Viper wins in the racing it is allowed to compete in is because of it's simplicity.
TT is easy to get from quality tuners for those that want it today. There is no need for the factory to spend crazy money on R&D to make them.
As a suggestion, I would rather see Chrysler raise the compression ratio on the V-10 than TT it from the factory. The new cam in the 08's could probably tune in a 12-1 cr or higher with 93 gas.
Smaller displacement engines need forced induction to keep up with the Viper. All of them are more complex and less reliable as the miles add on. Part of the reason the Viper wins in the racing it is allowed to compete in is because of it's simplicity.
TT is easy to get from quality tuners for those that want it today. There is no need for the factory to spend crazy money on R&D to make them.
As a suggestion, I would rather see Chrysler raise the compression ratio on the V-10 than TT it from the factory. The new cam in the 08's could probably tune in a 12-1 cr or higher with 93 gas.
black mamba1
Enthusiast
Well, like my college chemistry teacher used to always say..."I have the right to be wrong."
Those are some excellent runs! Especially w/ the kind of power u r making. That gives hope to the argument that more power can effectively be used. I recall, however, that Hennessey had to use tire warmers on his 1100 hp TT Viper to get in the low 11's in the 1/4 mile on street tires and he never broke into the 10's. I guess it all boils down to the driver.
Those are some excellent runs! Especially w/ the kind of power u r making. That gives hope to the argument that more power can effectively be used. I recall, however, that Hennessey had to use tire warmers on his 1100 hp TT Viper to get in the low 11's in the 1/4 mile on street tires and he never broke into the 10's. I guess it all boils down to the driver.
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
A factory TT would be very cool, however buyers would likely have to sign a waiver to avoid stupid lawsuits later.
A properly sized TT Viper with crisp engine would make at least 950-1000rwhp, anything less than that and it is either very low boost, detuned, or not very efficient. Anything over 800rwhp will not hook until top of 3rd gear at least on factory rubber. I doubt a factory will send a car out that must be doing over 100mph to floor it... be nice, but I do not see it.
As for AWD - the V10 is too long and heavy to add a front diff under it and retain good dynamics.
AWD and 1000++ hp would be amazing, but the best way to do AWD in a Viper would be to run an all alloy CNC billet wet block Hemi. Say 572 cubes to keep it a square motor (4.5" bore and stroke), it would weigh around 460lbs fully dressed excluding accessories, the TT system and AWD (compare this to 715lbs for the V10). The much shorter engine would set the weight back further and add a lot of room up front for the diff etc.
Run quaife diffs front and rear to keep it going straight even while wheelspinning.... it'd be a Veyron slayer.
Even a no boosted EFI 572 will make 750-800hp.
The sound of a twin turbo'd 572 Hemi would not be too bad either.
Heck - you could even use the new Hemi and run a wet block from CNC billet and have it at 426 cubes, still make 1000hp to all 4 wheels and get great economy at cruise.
And for the road race doubters - a TT big engine can be crisper than a stock Viper engine. You can gain throttle response compared to stock - it is all in the combination, build and tune. Not saying a TT car will beat a 12:1 track engine for response, just comparing to stock. Of course there will always be a gap between boost and off boost power... no different to a race engine coming on cam except there's more torque.
The one area turbos do suffer from is going from boost to trailing throttle and back to part throttle - so certain types of track turn combinations require driver adjustments to compensate. Even factory turbo cars like the EVO have it, there is no fix I know of, but turbo cars are still track dominant where they are allowed to run without too much restriction.
A properly sized TT Viper with crisp engine would make at least 950-1000rwhp, anything less than that and it is either very low boost, detuned, or not very efficient. Anything over 800rwhp will not hook until top of 3rd gear at least on factory rubber. I doubt a factory will send a car out that must be doing over 100mph to floor it... be nice, but I do not see it.
As for AWD - the V10 is too long and heavy to add a front diff under it and retain good dynamics.
AWD and 1000++ hp would be amazing, but the best way to do AWD in a Viper would be to run an all alloy CNC billet wet block Hemi. Say 572 cubes to keep it a square motor (4.5" bore and stroke), it would weigh around 460lbs fully dressed excluding accessories, the TT system and AWD (compare this to 715lbs for the V10). The much shorter engine would set the weight back further and add a lot of room up front for the diff etc.
Run quaife diffs front and rear to keep it going straight even while wheelspinning.... it'd be a Veyron slayer.
Even a no boosted EFI 572 will make 750-800hp.
The sound of a twin turbo'd 572 Hemi would not be too bad either.
Heck - you could even use the new Hemi and run a wet block from CNC billet and have it at 426 cubes, still make 1000hp to all 4 wheels and get great economy at cruise.
And for the road race doubters - a TT big engine can be crisper than a stock Viper engine. You can gain throttle response compared to stock - it is all in the combination, build and tune. Not saying a TT car will beat a 12:1 track engine for response, just comparing to stock. Of course there will always be a gap between boost and off boost power... no different to a race engine coming on cam except there's more torque.
The one area turbos do suffer from is going from boost to trailing throttle and back to part throttle - so certain types of track turn combinations require driver adjustments to compensate. Even factory turbo cars like the EVO have it, there is no fix I know of, but turbo cars are still track dominant where they are allowed to run without too much restriction.
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