Why does "Road & Track" bash the Viper?

[Bwright]

Re: Why does

Russ,

The complaint, though general, needed to be broken down into its components. That's how you analyze something. You should know by now that if I really wanted to micro-analyze something you would still be reading volume three of my post. I do not disagree with you that auto articles have a general bias. However, the basic tenets of my post are:

1. You are asking for something that does not come naturally to a human being. The persistence of your request that a report elevate your car above another shows that. You are asking for a result based on a single aspect of a given vehicle. That's slanted. The very nature of a review means that it is subjective as it is a result of the viewpoint of a human being.

2. You complain that they are subjectively biased but have yet to address either of my points about a) the glowing review they posted on the SRT-10 and Competition Coupe and b) the fact that they compared the SRT-10 to the Porsche on performance and the Viper lost. Did the fact that they pointed out the potentially damaging effect on the 911 make you feel any better about the result?

No. No car, performance or otherwise is bought based on performance alone. If that were the case then let's take it to its logical extreme. Buyers of a performance car would no longer need to see a picture of a car or read any evaluation of how it drove, its assembly quality, relative safety or reliability or even where it came from. Just analyze a performance chart and write the check based on the numbers. Who do you know that does that? Hence my question, Lutz pointed out that in a given overall test the Z06 performed better than an SRT-10. Surely you do not consider the Vette to be the better car? If you do, why aren't you championing the Vette? If you don't then that is a subjective analysis of fact and proves my point that a human being is rarely going to be truly objective. Look at it from another angle. You say the Viper should be the standard over which everyone should be "fawning." No, using your criteria the Enzo should be. After all, it puts up generally better performance numbers right? Ah, but any analysis of the Enzo's performance must take into consideration its cost. Right? That's what I mean when I say pure performance can never be the standard by which even a performance car is judged.

Beloved European cars? If you only knew how funny that was. How is your Jaguar holding up? How about the Ferrari? Nice BMW bike by the way. Know what they say about people in glass houses? While I respect some European makes because they have earned it you have no idea how pro-American I am. If you actually knew that you would be shocked and amazed. It is due to the fact that I try to remain as objective as possible that you could be fooled into thinking that I was not.

Out of sheer curiosity can you identify the specific Road & Track review where they somehow put down the Viper or failed to give it its due?

 

[Russ Oasis]

Re: Why does

BWright,
Some of what you have said is true and other aspects I disagree with . Firstly, how is my Jaguar? You mean the 1963 Series I XK-E Coupe? It's terrific, thank you. I think that it's the paragon of design during the early 60's. I love to show it off. Thanks for asking about my 1980 Ferrari. Yes, I like having 24 year old Ferraris that I have owned for 23 years. Gee, I wish it was as fast as the Ferrari reputation would have you believe that it is. And my BMW motorcycle....not a bad bike. It will make a great stable mate with the Harley Heritage Softail that I'm buying from VCA member and Harley Dealer, Danny Miller. Thanks for asking. BTW...I never said that I didn't like Ferraris or Porsches...ONCE AGAIN...my point is that Vipers don't get their due in the magazines. I love Ferraris and Porsches and would like to own more, if I had a place to put them and time to drive them.
Now, to address your points. Was it "Car & Driver" or "R & T" that liked the SRT and CC? One of them did write a somewhat complimentary article. However, I seem to remember another article about frying eggs on the side sills.
You ask which "R & T" set me off? Not one in particular. I happened to be glancing through the summary of road tests in the back of each magazine and noticed that the SRT-10 beat the Modena Roadster in every category. I then looked at the SRT compared to almost every other car in the test section and noticed that the stats beat all the other cars too (yes, BWright I'm sure there are a few exceptions in there, like the Mosler). It seems that the magazine should at least be crowing about the great statistics of the SRT. If they like the fit and finish of other cars better, great, but by the numbers, the SRT-10 is a remarkable car.
I know you like to play verbal volleyball, but I'm done. My point is and always has been that "Road & Track" is an elitist magazine, which favors European cars and snubs the Viper. Just my opinion BWright. And that's what this forum is all about.

 

[zoomie]

Re: Why does

Bw(r)ight
"As regards the Competition Coupe vs. the Enzo that is hardly a fair comparison. You are asking to compare the performance of a dedicated racecar against a fully compliant road car (give me that speech again about fairness and objectivity "
let me see here.. and that refers to the comparison of the Moller 900
NON_STREET LEGAL RACE CAR to ensure they had something that would beat the
SRT in braking ? "that speech again..." That was "objective" ??
as usual, money talks, and B*l*S*IT justifies itself.

 

[Bwright]

Re: Why does

let me see here.. and that refers to the comparison of the Moller 900
NON_STREET LEGAL RACE CAR to ensure they had something that would beat the
SRT in braking ? "that speech again..." That was "objective" ??

I assume you are referring to the June 2003 "Speeding" issue of Motor Trend. Did you actually read the article? Motor Trend qualified the Mosler by describing it as a non-street legal, slick-equipped, race-qualified "Ringer." They did not try to sneak anything by or conceal the nature of the car.

Beat the SRT in braking? Again, I have to ask which article you were reading since this was Motor Trend's comment on the SRT's brakes:

"The Viper's brakes went from so-so to record-breaking in one year. Both 100-0 and 60-0 stops shattered long-standing records for a production car."

as usual, money talks,

What money would that be? Financially, tiny Mosler can barely get out of its own way. When was the last time you saw a full page ad for a Mosler in a major automotive magazine?

 

[Russ Oasis]

Re: Why does

I have to jump in one more time here BWright. MT did not say that the Mosler was an all out race car, but rather a car that was ABOUT TO BE CERTIFIED to be street legal. There is no doubt that they slipped in this ringer to beat the SRT in some category. It had racing style gears in the transmission (nothing you could ever use on the street). It also had DOT slicks on it.

Tell you what, let me put headlights, turnsignals, horn, DOT slicks and a cat / muffler on my CC and let's rerun that test. The Mosler was the only car that prevented the Viper from winning straight across the board and the Mosler never should have been allowed in. Here's the bottom line: AT THE TIME OF THE TEST, THE MOSLER WAS NOT A STREET LEGAL CAR. How objective is that my friend????

You like to debate. Why don't you pick a topic that you are right about.

 

[Bwright]

Re: Why does

You like to debate. Why don't you pick a topic that you are right about.

I have a better idea. When you talk about a topic try doing your homework.

MT did not say that the Mosler was an all out race car

Incorrect. Here was Motor Trend's comment on that aspect of the Mosler:

"There are two versions of this car: the race-ready monster we tested and a more genteel version called the MT900 S."

Look it up.

Do you even listen to yourself? You are so paranoid about your car that you say things like

There is no doubt that they slipped in this ringer to beat the SRT in some category.

"NO DOUBT?!" The Viper was one of TEN cars, including the Murcielago and Maranello, in the test and Motor Trend pointed out that they tried for six more, including the Enzo, but could not round them all up for the test. But you think they spend their testing regimen thinking up ways to single out and "beat the SRT"?!!!! And you think there is "no doubt" about it? Wow. Words fail me. First it was the Europeans who were being given an unfair leg up. Now even American manufacturers are suspect. Incredible.

The Viper's performance numbers are obviously to be compared to the other production cars which were available in that particular test. That there was one "race-ready" car in the test makes for interesting consideration of what the street car would do if it were driven off the track and pitted against a dedicated race car. It is no more biased than Road & Track doing their side-by-side comparison of an SRT-10 vs. a Competion Coupe. I guess there was no bias there because they were both Dodges.

No doubt. Yikes.

 

[Russ Oasis]

Re: Why does

BWright...whatever. Do you even own a Viper?

 

[Russ Oasis]

Re: Why does

Come to think of it...simply answer this question Mr. Right: Was the Mosler used in the test, street legal or not? Had it been certified to run on the street and can you (or someone)actually buy one and register it? You seemed to gloss over those facts. So...the only car that beat the SRT-10 was NOT street legal...could NOT be registered to drive on the street, and is NOT yet available to the public. If you don't call that a ringer, what is it? Who's being paranoid? I'm just calling it as I see it. By the way....Do you own a Viper or did you just get an A in debating class? BIAS is my complaint, and no matter what I say, you want to debate other points. IT'S ABOUT LITERARY B*I*A*S.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: Why does

I resent the fact that someone using a username that rythmes with my real name is posting dorky arguments.

If the point of using a race car in a test was to show how close real street cars were - and the SRT10 got real close in most sectors - why was that point not hammered home and emphasised in the article?

Instead - the article praised the glories of the outright race car and the exoticness of the Euro supercars, and any praise to the SRT10 was token and only because it beat everything else that was road worthy in most test performance results. The fact it beat the road cars in most categories for a fraction of the price was also not exactly written in bold.

Yet you'll find other magazines pointing out how even a Mitsi Evo or Subaru WRX STI can beat a Ferrari 360 around a road course - but then the Evo and WRX are cult cars for the fast and furious crowd and sell 10 times what the others sell - so I guess their marketing pull justifies the truth... unlike Dodge.

One has to wonder whether someone at Dodge once slept with the magazine editors wives and got found out, because the car is a lot better than most articles let on.... even the Australian and NZ motoring press - once biased because of Euro bias - is now coming out and saying the Viper is a great car, and these guys are hard to impress.

 

[Snakester]

Re: Why does

I have that Motor Trend article, and they did things right and wrong in their reporting. The good part was that they got a talented driver to test the car, which equalized many things.

The poor journalism was the flavor of how they presented the Mosler. I like the underdog Mosler a lot, but the Proton version, with it's plex window, racing tranny and DOT slicks was easily the equivalent of running a Competition Coupe or Porsche Cup car against all of those fully federalized street cars.

A proper article would have put the race modified, illegal Proton MT900S in a sidebar.
The Car & Driver supertuner test forced real street tires and normal gasoline to put the various tuner car's added power into perspective.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=35&article_id=2834&page_number=1

The writers begrudgingly admitted that the new Viper had the best brakes, saying that it was "surprising" that the Viper was better, but they seriously played down the part that the SRT-10 Viper was nearly a performance match for the $300,000 Murcielago (better in braking and handling).

Car and Driver did their early test of the prototype SRT-10 Viper, which they were told was a pre-production car with some heats issues, and C&D made a big deal of it with pictures of eggs frying on the side sills and popcorn coming out of the hood grills.

But there have been no follow-up C&D articles of the actual production Viper, especially against cars like the Ferrari 360, or Porsche GT3, or Lambo Gallardo.

British and Australian magazines are either horribly biased against American cars, or the worst drivers in the world, being like a second slower than average tests here.

The problem that I have with American articles on the Viper is that they always compare it to the Corvette and even the Mustang. Touting that sure, the Viper is faster, but it's so much more expensive. Yet they don't dare compare the SRT-10 Viper against the Ferrari 360 Spyder, BMW Z8/Alpine, or $80K Porsche Carrera Cabrio, or $90K NSX-T.

No doubt some people are looking for more quality, comfort, and status will be drawn to European performance cars. But the expressed perspective of the Viper is always of a slightly better performing, but more crude $80K Corvette.

And they NEVER make the connection between the Viper's performance matching the exotic Murcielago, or Porsche GT2. Let alone beating the Ferrari 360 and Porsche GT3.

-Dean.

 

[HiYoSilver]

Re: Why does

Great discussion guys. You are correct about BIAS in jouranlism. You can not believe the LA Times on the left coast, ask Arnold about that. We can not believe the NY Times on the east coast. It is as factual as Pravda was for the USSR.
It is the same for R&T comparing the 911 Turbo with the X50 package beating the SRT-10 by popping the clutch at 5000 rpms to win by 0.1 sec. Not likely that anyone would do that unless they wanted a clutch and drivetrain rebuild every 3 to 4 weeks. It is a French owned magazine and it wouldn't please the ownership to print an American triumph.
I just blew off a 911 Turbo on the Roslyn viaduct and shamed a 360 Ferrari in Glen Cove with my SRT-10 with a Viper Baffle adding extra backdraft push. That is reality and that is what counts.
You have to take information from whence it comes. And you have to be skeptical especially when the rest of the world especially Europe is so jealous of us.
We are the only Super Power in the world I would like to see us excel in the automotive world. Let Saleen do his thing (S7). Let's see GM get its Cadillac moving with a V-Series XLR and maybe the C6 will prod our great Vipers to even greater levels of performance and refinement.
It's a shame we can't rely on certain magazines for the TRUTH ie. Road & Track and Car & Driver. They really are easy to see though however.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Re: Why does

A proper article would have put the race modified, illegal Proton MT900S in a sidebar

Well said! I took a couple Germans to the Greer dragway last week and they were EXTREMELY impressed with what you can do to American muscle cars! Will you ever see two 1000+ horsepower cars side by side in Europe? Can you even Imagine the prices of the parts needed to make a Euro supercar beat a modified Mustang or Camaro at the drag strip? It would be fair.....just like putting the Mosler against street cars. Do I think the mags thought, hmmmm, how do we show up the SRT-10? You bet! Took the focus away from the stomping!! it gave the Z06, didn't it?!?! EVEN ON THE ROADCOURSE BOB LUTZ.

 

[zoomie]

Re: Why does

bright: "That there was one "race-ready" car in the test makes for interesting consideration ..."
and "There are two versions of this car: the race-ready monster we tested and a more genteel version called the MT900 S."


the INTERESTING point is - just ONE "race-ready".. if that is the "interest"
for including just "one" - why ONLY one ? and if not the point as a side light, then why include in the same chart data with all the STREET LEGAL cars ?
and why not 'test' the 'more GENTEEL version' ?
Why not the Comp Coupe, the C5R, etc.. also ? Bias? gee, What bias?

kinda like the British car mag test showing a Mustang running 13 sec 1/4s and
a Viper running 14.5 ! *** ! guess it's the "expert" drivers showing their
years of experience.. (or something.) LOL

you would think they might have concerns as to the loss of their CREDIBILITY.
THEN who would buy their rags ?

 

[Viperfreak2]

Re: Why does

Here's more BIAS. Car and Driver has a 0-60 time listed in their road test digest as 4.8 seconds for the SRT-10. Hmmm, I wonder if they know? I E-mailed them back in July and asked them to correct it. (Insert Jeopardy theme here)...

 

[Bwright]

Re: Why does



Russ,

I am utterly mystified by your question. "Was the Mosler used in the test street-legal?" For the third time: N O, NYET, NEIN. Did you not read my response to Zoomie’s post? I said quite clearly that the Mosler was not a street-legal car and that it had a number of advantages which made it a ringer in the test. I'll re-quote my response to Zoomie:

Motor Trend qualified the Mosler by describing it as a non-street legal, slick-equipped, race-qualified "Ringer." They did not try to sneak anything by or conceal the nature of the car.

In my response to your earlier post I said that the Motor Trend described the Mosler as "Race-ready."

Bias is not the mere inclusion of something which might have a leg up on the competition. Bias is doing so and NOT telling people that so they can then evaluate the results in their proper context. Motor Trend was comprehensive. Among other things, they warned that the Mustang and Jaguar faced electronic limiters and that the Mercedes’ performance in the slalom was hampered by a non-defeatable stability system. As regards the Mosler Motor Trend could not have been any clearer. Some quotes from Motor Trend which, again, were in my response to Zoomie:

"The Mosler was a qualified ringer."
It was wearing "slicks."
The version we tested was "race-ready."
"This Photon hasn’t been fully government-certified for street use."

Short of them drawing you a picture I don’t know how much clearer this can be. Given that they made it so clear that the Mosler was not street legal it should be painfully obvious to anyone that its performance results make for little more than an interesting sidebar as to what any of the production cars in the test could/would do against a race-ready car if, for example, they encountered it on an autocross course. In that respect it should be noted that the Viper beat the Mosler in three of the tests.

I have answered your question, now for the third time. Now I have a question set for you.

Hypothetical:

A Corvette Z06 is involved in a multi-car comparison test in which the Competition Coupe is included for reference. I say the following: "The non-street legal Competition Coupe was the only car that prevented the Z06 from winning straight across the board." I neglect to tell my audience that in fact I lost ½ the tests to a street legal Viper SRT-10 and the tiebreaker to a Neon SRT-4. Based on the preceding, would you agree/disagree with the following and why/why not.

a) In accusing the Competition Coupe of cheating me out of my victory when in fact the street-legal SRT-10 won fully ½ the tests (making it mathematically impossible for my Z06 to win "straight across the board") I was in fact scapegoating the Competition Coupe.
b) Not mentioning the SRT-10 at all or giving it credit for its performance is evidence of bias in some way.
c) Not mentioning that the tiebreaker was in fact won by the SRT-4 is evidence of bias in some way.

Look forward to your response.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Re: Why does

Some of us are usually "utterly mystified". Jumping back and forth making it sound like there's a point, then destroying the point with blather. Concise and to the point: Yes, MT was clear in saying the car was a ringer. They were also clear in adding it to the charts as a competitor for the others the chase. A sidebar with it vs the Ferrari would have been more un-bias. Comparing sub $100k cars with Enzos, Saleen S7's and Fosler Motons is OK as long as the performance is there, they just shouldn't make it seem like they are in the same availability/price/production/use categories. They aren't.

 

[Mach500]

Re: Why does

Bwright,

What is your point? Do you work for the mags? The issue raised here was why are the mags' subjective opinions so tilted towards european cars, even when the numbers clearly point towards SRT-10 as a performance winner. I will grant you that fit & finish of SRT-10 may lack certain european refinements, but that does not mean the european cars are better SPORTS CARS than Vipers. Of course, many of us Viper owners are going to be biased towards our beloved vehicles. Accordingly, it is upsetting to some of us when the mags publish articles showing "favoritism" toward european cars. But isn't it within our right to criticize or complain about such subjective mag articles in this forum? Last I checked, this site is run by VIPER Club of America. I don't think you will win over any converts from your preaching in this forum, just like I don't expect to convert you into a pro-Viper magazine journalist (or whatever it is that you do for a living). Personally, I don't give a rat's A$$ what the magazines say about any cars. I don't read car magazines anyway. But I'll be the first one to admit that it is very upsetting when I hear other people/entities cast Vipers in such a negative light, especially when the same people/entities don't have a clue about THE JOY OF OWNING AND DRIVING A VIPER.

So, my suggestion to you, Bwright, is to PLEASE go start your own web site and share your philosophical ramblings with other subjective magazine journalists (or whatever they are). Thank you!

 

[Ramman]

Re: Why does \"Road & Track\" bash the Viper?

If you look at who owns the mag then you will get the point. The publication is geared to sell overseas cars and to discredit the US ofering. I take R&T as a trash mag with a few nice photos every now and then.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Re: Why does \"Road & Track\" bash the Viper?

Is this the same Bwright from Supraforums?????Hmmmm

 

[Birvini]

Re: Why does \"Road & Track\" bash the Viper?

For several years I have had a creeping feeling that "Road & Track" never gives the Viper a fair shake. There is always a "BUT" written directly next to anything nice or objectively indisputable. On the other hand, anything Ferrari or Porsche, is golden with them. You'd think that there isn't a car on the face of the earth that can compare to the 360 Modena or the Enzo (admittedly, a nice ride). Then, tonight, while I was reading their "Road Test Summary," it hit me like a ton of bricks. They are extremely biased, and here's the proof.
Let's compare the street SRT-10 (a roadster) to the street 360 Modena roadster.

0-60 Ferrari 360 Modena 4.5 sec. SRT-10 4.1 sec (VIPER WINS)

0-100 " 10.7 sec. " 8.9 sec. (VIPER WINS)

1/4 mile " 12.9 sec. " 12.2 sec. (VIPER WINS)

Top Speed " 180 mph " 190 mph (VIPER WINS)

Braking from 60 " 125 feet " 114 feet (VIPER WINS)

Braking from 80 " 221 feet " 196 feet (VIPER WINS)

Skidpad " 0.93 G " 1.04 G (VIPER WINS)

Slalom in mph " 67.4 mph " 68.6 mph (VIPER WINS)

Fuel Mileage " 10.8 mpg " 12.5 mpg (VIPER WINS)

Let's see...the way I figure it, by "Road & Track's" own numbers, the SRT-10 beats the Ferrari 360 Modena in EVERY ONE OF THE 9 CATEGORIES. (And I won't even mention the price difference.)
And how about the Comp Coupe? It beats the Enzo in 4 of 8 categories (fuel efficiency wasn't counted for that test). It seems to me that "Road & Track" is about as bias as a non radial tire. They should be fawning all over the SRT-10 and using it as THE benchmark for performance cars, whether they come from Italy, England, Germany, France (OK..that was just a joke), or the U.S. When you inspect the numbers in the clarity of objectivity, we can be proud of what our cars have achieved. And this is no a** kissing of DC, my radio still stinks.

Agreed. I for one can't stand looking at those mags. If they dare begin to say something positive about the Viper, it's almost always followed with "but." Idiots.

 

[Bwright]

Re: Why does

Do you work for the mags?

No. Do you work for DaimlerChrysler?

the numbers clearly point towards SRT-10 as a performance winner

.

Really? First you admit that you don’t even read the magazines, which automatically means you’re not qualified to give an opinion on their perceived bias, then you compound that stupidity by saying that you are basing your opinion on what you have heard. Performance eh? OK. Try this on. I strongly suspect that one of the reasons we have suddenly not heard from Russ on my most recent questions is that he was less than forthcoming in his assessment of the performance of the Viper in the Motor Trend article.

After his insistence that Motor Trend had not qualified the Mosler as a ringer, a claim so easily disproven that even Viperfreak2 conceded the point, I had zero confidence in his assessment of the test. So I pulled my file copy to check his claim that the Viper would have won everything but for the Mosler. His specific comment was:

"The Mosler was the only car that prevented the Viper from winning straight across the board."

Turns out that of the nine tests the Viper won four and lost four to the Murcielago, a fully compliant road car. The ninth and deciding test? The humble Evolution won. So even without the Mosler, clearly a red herring, the Viper would not have won all the tests. Next time you try to comment on something, try actually having all the facts in hand first.

One more thing, the next time you feel compelled to recently register on a site and then jump on a bandwagon, try using the forum’s search function. Look up the great Viper wars of last year when Viper owners engaged in the functional equivalent of bending the SRT-10 over a table and taking turns. Hell, they even took a poll to show how much they hated it. Defenders of the SRT-10 were literally outnumbered 4-1. Look up the list of defenders and then compare them to the posters on this thread. When you’ve done that, then come talk to me.

Run along now.

 

[Bwright]

Re: Why does \"Road & Track\" bash the Viper?

Is this the same Bwright from Supraforums?????Hmmmm

Since I never even visit those forums I hope that is a joke. If there is in fact someone using that username on a Supra site please show me where it is. By the way, I don't find that even remotely funny.

 

[Bwright]

Re: Why does

Yes, MT was clear in saying the car was a ringer.

Try telling that to Russ. I did, three times. He doesn’t believe me. Maybe he’ll believe you.

What are my points? There are four.

1. Performance is not the sole determinant of the measure of a performance car. Never has been, never will be. If it were all that was required then purchase decisions would be made solely based on a performance chart and nothing more.

2. What you guys are doing is the functional equivalent of the oft-advanced argument by segments of this country’s populace that various tests/systems are biased against them and that’s why they don’t do well. We don’t do well because the testers/system hate us and the test is set up so we can’t pass. Relax the standards. Sound familiar? Let me play it back at a difference speed for you. The magazines hate us and the world is against us (whine, whine). With both arguments basically what you guys are asking for is charity, a handout if you will. You will never gain any measure of respect that way. I am astonished at how many posters on this thread are willing to concede points to another car and still request to be declared a victor or at least something close to it. Vipers won repeatedly at Le Mans. Would you be as proud of that if they had been spotted a 30-lap lead? Then don’t ask for concessions elsewhere. You achieve victory and respect when you can say you took the fight to your competitors in every respect and left them no refuge.

3. Bias is human nature and can never be fully erased. That said, the magazines are considerably less biased than you guys think. Instead of sticking your hands out for breaks the discussion would be better served by a hard look at what its going to take to get the last few feet to the top of the mountain.

4. No car is perfect. That a magazine says there are a few things about a given car that they don’t like is not evidence of bias. Everybody gets demerits. In the Motor Trend test the Maranello was described as overweight. Short of saying that a sports car was outgunned that is one of the most damning comments you can make about a car. To win it all you merely have to have fewer demerits, especially critical ones, than your competitors.

Viperfreak2 let me ask you a few questions and I am seriously interested in your response:

a. If Road & Track is so biased why is it that no one on this thread can explain the glowing review they did this year on the SRT-10?
b. If Road & Track qualified their evaluation of the Viper vs. the Porsche Turbo X50 turbo by showing in two places, one of them highlighted, that the Porsche’s results cannot in fact be taken as a victory over the Viper and presented evidence, some of it highlighted, in such a way that a 10-year old could understand it what would you say?
c. Would it make you happy and would you say there was no bias to a magazine that said any/all of the following: "In every measure of performance there’s Dodge and Ferrari – then there’s everything else." How about, "Get on your knees and bow in homage to the master…the Viper." "The Viper delivers such a groundforce of quaking performance it should come equipped with its own seismometer." "There is simply no other production car like the wholly brutal Viper." "The Viper is easily forgiven its price by virtue of its remarkable ability to bend time and space." "It cut a swath of destruction through our tests." Would that be unbiased enough for you?
d. Keeping in mind that no car is perfect, if a magazine described the Viper as saying that despite some mere nitpicks it can take on the world’s best would you say that’s fair?

Comparing sub $100k cars with Enzos, Saleen S7's and Fosler Motons is OK as long as the performance is there,

OK. In the Motor Trend test in question the street SRT-10 beat the Mosler in three of the tests. Why not invite the Saleen, Enzo et al? As I have said before on this site the Viper has been proven to take down a Maranello. Let’s see how far it can go.

Final question for you: What if a magazine published information showing that the Viper could take down the Enzo and Saleen in a crucial determinant of performance? What if the magazine then highlighted that victory and further highlighted information showing that the performance could not be considered a fluke? What if they threw in additional information that for all intents and purposes the Viper tied the Enzo in two other significant performance categories? Would you still say they were biased?

 

[Russ Oasis]

Re: Why does

BWright...you have not heard from me because I discount everything you say and am not interested in verbal ************ with you (which you so enjoy). Clearly, you don't own a Viper as twice you never answered my direct question about that. We've all heard you manipulate questions and statements so that you can argue against whatever is the discussion du jour. There is no doubt that had I started this thread with a post on how fair and balanced the magazines are, you would have jumped in with how bias they are. The only reason you exist is to disagree and feel that you have won the argument. I don't play that game. Go hop into whatever it is that you drive (probably a Pontiac Aztec) and drive off into the sunset. The group of people on this board (most of us club members) are tired of reading your long winded self serving posts.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Re: Why does

BWright,

I didn't have enough waking hours today to read this whole thread, but I think I have the gist of it.

Russ has an excellent point. It seems to me, that whenever I read a "comparison" article, a set of criteria is invented FOR THAT TEST that seems to skew the outcome. I have seen the Viper dinged to the extent it lost a test because it was "so expensive" compared to a car costin $55k vs. $75k. On the other hand, I have seen cost blissfully glossed over when a Viper is compared to a 360. I have seen cost used as a criteria, and assigned various weights to make it either a big factor or an insignificant one. I've seen other things besides cost used too - driveability, styling, "fun factor" and various other silly things.

Of course rag editors are paid to drive the cars and then offer an unbiased opinion. And of course they are biased, but at least they ought to keep the facts part and the opinions part seperate. So many times you see opinions presented as facts. How often do we hear about the "horrible" fit and finish of the Viper? It's not great, but it's better than any Vette I owned! Yet one of the leading complaints from the Vette guys is the "truck interior". This probably stems from some comparison between Vette and Porsche where fit and finish were ignored, but in another the Viper was dinged because it didn't measure up to the 360 in FandF. So, illogically, the Vette guys presume the Vette has Porsche-like F&F, whereas the Viper is just shat.

That is what causes the problems.

And when they use a category like "practicality" or "styling" in a test named "Fastest Car" or "Top performing sports cars", they seriously damage their credibility.

 

[SylvanSRT]

Re: Why does

because its a rag!!!! the only auto mag worth buying and i think a must to subscribe to is Autoweek!

 

[GR8_ASP]

Re: Why does

Hate to say it but I read them all. The latest Auto Week mentioned the SRT several times in an article. I was amazed of the quoted 0-60 time. I think it was 4.4. They must have spent nearly a second making the shift. No way possible that time could be real unless it was snowing!

 

[Jim Hodel]

Re: Why does

I have been reading Road and track since the 1960's and they have always preferred European cars to American cars. They have somewhat softened their opinions over the years, but the editors they hire simply prefer European cars.

FWIW, I am a converted European car snob. I used to believe the opinions in R and T until I bought a Z28 in 1995. Now, I also own a 99 GTS and an 01 Z06. And, I realize that I don't care what R and T thinks....

Jim

 

[Viperfreak2]

Re: Why does

I'm too tired to respond anymore. My eyes hurt.

 

[ChrisXoxide]

Re: Why does

A little off topic but I figured you guys would love the car compliment,


I met some girl from England who owns a 360 Spyder on some website forum. She LOVES the Viper though, I show her tons of pics of mine.

I'm talking her into selling the 360 and trying to import a Viper to England. She is seriously considering. Its so funny how much she doesn't have a "Ferrari is the best" attitude. (She bought the car when her mother died and left a will of just under a million GBP, so she doesn't even know all too much about cars persay).

Interesting 19 year old girl