Why not have control

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

What’s wrong with Active Stability Control making the Viper an easier car to control?

What's wrong with buying any one several other cars in the same class (Porsche, Corvette, Ferrari, etc. ) as the Viper but have all those driver aids?

Ask yourself why YOU bought a Viper when it doesn't have all that crap on it and then we will know who really bought it for "chest pounding" as you say.

 

[INSOMNIAC]

Not after this year.

Well the current Formula 1 cars have Traction Control and they’ve had it since 2003 if I’m not mistaken.

But that’s not the point. The point is if the regulations allow them, all the Formula 1 cars will be equipped with Traction Control. Is that because Michael Schumacher, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton or ***** are sissies that can’t drive without electronic nannys or do they really improve their lap times considerably with the traction control on?

 

[INSOMNIAC]

What's wrong with buying any one several other cars in the same class (Porsche, Corvette, Ferrari, etc. ) as the Viper but have all those driver aids?

Ask yourself why YOU bought a Viper when it doesn't have all that crap on it and then we will know who really bought it for "chest pounding" as you say.

Well I bought my Viper to turn it into a 1200 RWHP beast. Porsche and Ferrari weren’t options and Corvette didn’t have the cubic inches I wanted. Again, I don’t represent the majority here. Majority buys the Vipers because they want to enjoy a real sports car, not a grand tourismo.

My point is you can have your cake and eat it too. You can have a real sports car with world’s largest serial production cubic inch engine and have Active Stability Control too.
Don’t look at it as black and white.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Effectiveness
Numerous international studies have confirmed the effectiveness of ESC in helping the driver maintain control of the car, help save lives and reduce the severity of crashes. In the fall of 2004 in the U.S., the National Highway and Traffic Safety Administration confirmed the international studies, releasing results of a field study in the U.S. of ESC effectiveness. NHTSA concluded that ESC reduces crashes by 35%. Additionally, sport utility vehicles with stability control are involved in 67 percent fewer accidents than SUVs without the system. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) later issued its own study that concluded the widespread application of ESC could save 7,000 lives a year. In June 2006, the IIHS updated the results of its 2004 study by stating that up to 10,000 fatal crashes could be avoided annually if all vehicles were equipped with ESC. Now being used by other manufacturers, stability control systems reduce the likelihood of all fatal accidents by 43 percent and fatal single-vehicle crashes by 56 percent, according to another accident study by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS). That makes ESC the greatest safety equipment development since seat belts and air bags, according to some experts. The European New Car Assessment Program (EuroNCAP) "strongly recommends" that people buy cars fitted with stability control. On November 21, 2006 the IIHS announced that 13 of the 2007 vehicles had earned its TOP SAFETY PICK rating---a major new requirement for this top rating is that the vehicle must be equipped with ESC.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Well the current Formula 1 cars have Traction Control and they’ve had it since 2003 if I’m not mistaken.

But that’s not the point. The point is if the regulations allow them, all the Formula 1 cars will be equipped with Traction Control. Is that because Michael Schumacher, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton or ***** are sissies that can’t drive without electronic nannys or do they really improve their lap times considerably with the traction control on?

Since it's inception F1 has always been about the cars i.e. technology. In the past 10 years it has been realized that the tech has caught and overtaken driver input. So since watching machines go around a track being piloted by an engineer sitting in the pits with a joystick isn't as interesting as watching drivers trying to out-drive each other, F1 has been moving away from tech.

BTW They haven't had ABS for ten years either.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Effectiveness
Numerous international studies have confirmed the effectiveness of ESC in helping the driver maintain control of the car, help save lives and reduce the severity of crashes. In the fall of 2004 in the U.S., the National Highway and Traffic Safety Administration confirmed the international studies, releasing results of a field study in the U.S. of ESC effectiveness. NHTSA concluded that ESC reduces crashes by 35%. Additionally, sport utility vehicles with stability control are involved in 67 percent fewer accidents than SUVs without the system. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) later issued its own study that concluded the widespread application of ESC could save 7,000 lives a year. In June 2006, the IIHS updated the results of its 2004 study by stating that up to 10,000 fatal crashes could be avoided annually if all vehicles were equipped with ESC. Now being used by other manufacturers, stability control systems reduce the likelihood of all fatal accidents by 43 percent and fatal single-vehicle crashes by 56 percent, according to another accident study by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS). That makes ESC the greatest safety equipment development since seat belts and air bags, according to some experts. The European New Car Assessment Program (EuroNCAP) "strongly recommends" that people buy cars fitted with stability control. On November 21, 2006 the IIHS announced that 13 of the 2007 vehicles had earned its TOP SAFETY PICK rating---a major new requirement for this top rating is that the vehicle must be equipped with ESC.

We can argue stats until the cows come home. If saving lives is the only factor then lets limit HP to 150.

The bottom line is Dodge should have the freedom to build a car for a specific market and that market is the purists. Without the purists the Viper image will be watered down like the Vette and being a low production car it will be cancelled.

 

[Janni]

Viper is a very tricky car to drive. No questions about that. Short wheelbase, high torque at low rpms and inadequate stock tires make the Viper experience challenging, fun, but scary for most of us. (That’s why the Comp Coupe has a longer wheelbase btw.)

The Viper Competition Coupe has EXACTLY the same wheelbase as the SRT-10 as it starts with the exact same frame.

 

[Alabaster Mamba]

Chuck,

I have noticed throughout this whole post that those arguing for ESC/TCS are those who seem to want to build their car up to high HP numbers and just be able to get in and press the pedal to the floor. It seems they don't want to learn "how" to use that power but instead make the manufacturer develop a system in which they can just press and go. These are the same people who would be blaming and suing Dodge if they were to have an accident while out trying to see just floor the pedal in the rain and had an accident. What some of these people need to do is go to an HPDE or even better attend "The SRT Experience". Dodge is the only manufacturer that I know of that holds these sessions in their different SRT models for people to drive. Some people don't want to work for their experience but instead want to be able to just buy something with alot of HP and TQ. These same people want to then turn around and add more of each and then get in the car and drive, the whole time not ever really learned how to properly use the initial HP the car came with.
I agree with you and others in that this is a car that is basically a race car sold to the public. It doesn't have all of the nannies and whistles. And I should iterate that that is the appeal of this car. It is a true sports car that begs you to learn all you can and as the old ARMYs slogan goes"Be All You can Be". I think it would be great if the car could be bought with the option that way those of us who don't want it could make our own choice versus having it made for us. But the problem is that typically you will get some person who tries to sue someone because of their own stupidity. It may seem far fetched but there are people in the new Z06s trying to sue because they turned their TCS off and then they wrecked. These same people actually had the nerve to say that the TCS should have prevented their wreck.

 

[INSOMNIAC]

The Viper Competition Coupe has EXACTLY the same wheelbase as the SRT-10 as it starts with the exact same frame.

You are absolutely right. I’m mistaken.
Still, it’s a tricky car to handle.

 

[Viperfreak2]

We can argue stats until the cows come home. If saving lives is the only factor then lets limit HP to 150.

The bottom line is Dodge should have the freedom to build a car for a specific market and that market is the purists. Without the purists the Viper image will be watered down like the Vette and being a low production car it will be cancelled.

I can't argue that point.

It is a pure sports car. It should remain a pure sports car.

The problem is that some people believe pure means one thing (big engine, big tires and big brakes, period) and the others believe it means the electronics don't take away from the experience. The SRT-10 has ABS, power windows, tire pressure monitors that turn the radio volume down so you can hear the chime, power door latches, A/C, stereo, etc. All these things add to the enjoyment and safety. A GOOD stability control system can too.

You must all go flog a new Cayman or Boxster (on dry public roads) and tell me the stability system detracted from the fun. The limits are so high and the system doesn't kick in until you've done something really wrong, you'll never know it's there. I was just on the Autobahn and some speed limitless back roads in the new M6 6-speed manual. I don't think I'd be here today without the nannies. It HELPED save us when coming over a hill/curve at 260kph.

 

[VENOMAHOLIC]

This winter there were a few snow storms that resulted in widespread black ice. There were cars off the road all over the highway and approx 8 of 10 were SUVs with 4 wheel drive capabillity. Those people had a false sense of security because of 4WD and lost it. The same thing happens with TC, ABS, AH, etc.

Cars are advertized as being so safe with all the extra airbags that they make you believe you can survive almost anything and at the same time adding more cupholders, TV's, navigation, and communications capabilities. People are driving 65mph or higher in their Lexus, BMW, etc and because of all the electronic crap are paying less attention to the road and wondering why active handling didn't prevent them from the head on after swerving into oncoming traffic. I actually find myself pressing buttons in my C5 vette trying to get tire pressure or some info on the hwy. Yes, I also turn off TC at times.

In the Viper, I am fully focused on the road because there is no cupholder or any of that stuff. The radio is the only distraction and I usually prefer to hear the engine so I turn it off. I don't drive it in the rain because I don't need to with my other cars. I prefer to drive roofless anyway.The C5 in the rain is OK but I do not depend on the TC. I simply drive slower and more carefully as if it wasn't on.

In the large truck I drive at work, the ABS failed because of a broken sensor and it was a shock to learn almost the hard way. I always stop at least a car length behind the vehicle in front of me and when the ABS failed I used most of it up. I was able to finish the day driving slower and with leaving more stopping distance and I was safe. I had it fixed by the fleet mechanic for the next day but I still wonder if a less skilled driver would have killed somebody. Having ABS and other nannies in huge trucks scares the heck out of me because these things can and do fail over the thousand of miles and hours driven. Older trucks that do not have ABS have much more predictible braking especially on black ice.

In summary, pure driving is safer driving for many reasons and not just in cars but for oversize trucks as well.

 

[Y2K5SRT]

We can argue stats until the cows come home. If saving lives is the only factor then lets limit HP to 150.

The bottom line is Dodge should have the freedom to build a car for a specific market and that market is the purists. Without the purists the Viper image will be watered down like the Vette and being a low production car it will be cancelled.

But doesn't that actually contradict itself? The Vette is anything but a low production car. So if the Viper becomes a "watered-down" car will it sell more? And if it did, wouldn't that further cement its future? No arguments on any of this stuff, just pondering...

Now, while we have had this conversation before I think it is important to note that people buy Vipers for a very wide variety of reasons:

1. They want an American "muscle car" with a big displacement engine - relive their youth or get the "426 Hemi" of today
2. They want an affordable "exotic", knowing they won't see many others on the street
3. They want a superior track car that is race-ready from the factory
4. They want a great looking car that will wow their friends and win car shows
5. They want a car with top performance and the bragging rights to go with it - even if they never push it
6. They want a car that is fun to drive on the weekends - many with the top down
7. They like seeing the car they own on magazine covers throughout the year
8. They are die-hard Mopar fans and this is their dream car
9. They are moving up a notch from the Corvette
10. They are moving down a notch from some Italian exotic - or so they think

There are undoubtedly dozens of other reasons, but the point is that the purists make up only one part of the Viper-buying public. How many actively track their Vipers more than once a year? 5%? Less?

Lots of people bought the ACR from 1999-2002, but how many of those were tracked? Even better, a "purist" would undoubtedly choose to save $5K (or whatever it was) and skip the "Comfort Group" that added back the A/C and stereo/CD on those same ACR's - right? Apparently not. Of the 819 ACR's that were produced only 38 - or less than 5% - didn't spend money to add back in the A/C and stereo. And this was the very car designed to reflect the Viper's original purpose. Even better, the number of "purists" who chose the ACR without the A/C and radio made up less than 1% of the total Vipers sold during that same time period. In other words, the "purists" had the least impact on the bottom line of the Viper as a whole.

So does that mean that the Viper should be loaded down with 57 electronic gadgets, power seats, and a mini-bar? Of course not. But to say that a programmable "nanny" such as traction control or stability control would kill the car is far fetched at best. Especially if that feature can be either switched off or pulled altogether (a simple fuse). Heck, make it a $500 option but don't get disgusted when 75% of the buyers opt for it. It doesn't mean they are bad drivers or shouldn't own a Viper, it just means that they would like to have that little extra safety net in the rare case they ever need it. Like your post about ABS, few will ever have the chance to use it, but those that do will save their tires from being flat-spotted - not to mention having a more controlled braking situation.

Finally, please understand that I am all for people getting plenty of schooling before they ever take the wheel of a Viper. Regardless of whether it has a host of electronic nannies or none at all. Just realize that the majority will never see a track of any sort and that the owners bought them for a variety of reasons. Those that push the car well past its limits have often crashed or, God forbid, lost their lives. Stability control and/or traction control (only the latter of which would I be interested) might have prevented some of those accidents - might. And likewise, the false sense of security could lure even more into disastrous situations as has been pointed out previously. But for the masses, it would simply make this exotic just a little easier to drive. And if it can be completely turned off at the touch of a button, what's not to like? It might even help sell a few more cars and ensure that the Viper continues production well into the future. That most definitely works for me.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

But doesn't that actually contradict itself? The Vette is anything but a low production car. So if the Viper becomes a "watered-down" car will it sell more?

Possibly. Possibly not. The Vette already looks like a Viper, performs like a Viper and is cheaper than a Viper. So why buy a Viper when you can get GM's "Viper replica" for cheaper and with all those goodies everybody thinks they need?

Oh and I forgot, the Vette also gets better gas mileage.

So why buy a Viper? Because it is a true no-nonsense sportscar...for now.

Get your goodies on the aftermarket. Support Woodhouse and Tator.

 

[Viperfreak2]

A lot of people buy a Viper(s) for the image. Aura, Halo effect. Whatever you wanna call it. The substance (power, handling, PRICE) makes you feel just a little bit better than the vette, and the vette driver. I hope this isn't too brutally honest.

The Ferrari guys see the price difference as their justification.

Adding stability control won't change too many purchase decisions, unless it's such a bad system that it ruins the fun.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

A lot of people buy a Viper(s) for the image.

Agreed and that is what makes me wonder, exactly what image is it they are after?

 

[Zan186]

I can see both sides of the argument. Some want a raw simple car other's want modern technology to aid in their driving.
I like the idea of Traction control. Like the Z06, if you dont want it you turn it off. You could also say if you want it on a Viper you buy it after market.
For myself, I think TC would help with launching since I am not exactly a pro driver (yet).

The way I see it, TC would help the Viper's reputation. I think the Z06 is able to keep up with Gen 2 and 3 Vipers because they have minimal wheel slip. If the Vipers had TC I think the bad and average driver's times would greatly improve. Hence the Viper as a whole will be viewed as a faster car. (which is always a good thing)

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Agreed and that is what makes me wonder, exactly what image is it they are after?

My guess would be a "supercar" or "exotic" status. None of which preclude traction control, etc. The Ford GT (RIP), Enzo, and many others had it as an option, yet none would consider them watered-down cars. Even the mighty Bugatti Veyron, the exotic of exotics, has ABS, stability control, and traction control. The latter is interesting as it is already an all-wheel drive car. I seriously doubt those "nannies" scared away a single buyer.

Again, I would advocate it only as factory option or with the ability to disable them 100%. I am still not sold on the aftermarket systems. It's like adding ABS to the pre-2001 Vipers: Expensive, very time consuming, and probably not as good as a factory install. And unlike ABS, both traction control and stability control can easily be switched off. I honestly can't see where offering it as a factory option would hurt sales in the slightest, except for maybe a handful of "purists". Maybe they should revisit the ACR platform someday and make that the "purist" model without any nannies, etc. Of course they would sell a boatload of them as well, as long as you could add back in the A/C, etc.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Again, I would advocate it only as factory option or with the ability to disable them 100%. I am still not sold on the aftermarket systems. It's like adding ABS to the pre-2001 Vipers: Expensive, very time consuming, and probably not as good as a factory install. And unlike ABS, both traction control and stability control can easily be switched off. I honestly can't see where offering it as a factory option would hurt sales in the slightest, except for maybe a handful of "purists". Maybe they should revisit the ACR platform someday and make that the "purist" model without any nannies, etc. Of course they would sell a boatload of them as well, as long as you could add back in the A/C, etc.

Nobody is arguing that it would or wouldn't hurt sales. Putting a V8 HEMI in it probably wouldn't hurt sales either...but then it wouldn't be a Viper would it.

See my point?

 

[Janni]

if the argument is that these cars NEED traction / stability control in order to save drivers from themselves (and that's a valid argument, by the way) I don't see how Dodge could make it defeatable 100%. And then - the first ***** that switches the TC/SC off and immediately totals their car making a u-turn - don't laugh - it'll happen - Dodge will get sued and there goes the "optional" phase of our program.

the Viper is now being cross shopped with the likes of the Jaguar, BMWs, Cadillacs, etc - because of the relative commonness of 500 or so HP. So - you are getting a TOTALLY different buyer. They ask about power seats, Homelink, (gasp) even automatics. Then - they get in the Viper and drive it like their Camry. Results posted here daily, unfortunately. I blame the true convertible - it removed one of the biggest compromises and brought in the non-purists that weren't willing to put up with the "roadster". But that's just me.

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Show me a guy that would check to see if it had traction control before deciding it was a Viper or not. Even the car rags would tout it as "the Viper finally joining this century" - but we already know they are a bunch of pansies.

The good news is that The Grail Keeper, Herb Helbig, thinks exactly like you. So while I personally think there are only a handful of track rats that would truly be offended by the addition of a switchable traction control, you happen to have The Big Gun on your side. So don't start selling all your Viper stock just yet. Or if you do, sell it to me.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I blame the true convertible - it removed one of the biggest compromises and brought in the non-purists that weren't willing to put up with the "roadster".

An excellent observation Janni and absolutely on target.

I would also add the pro-ABS gang in on that.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

The good news is that The Grail Keeper, Herb Helbig, thinks exactly like you. So while I personally think there are only a handful of track rats that would truly be offended by the addition of a switchable traction control, you happen to have The Big Gun on your side. So don't start selling all your Viper stock just yet. Or if you do, sell it to me.

That is encouraging but even Herb wasn't able to keep the cupholder out of the console.

 

[Janni]

Actually - I am not sure I'd be that annoyed with true switchable traction control. I'd probably be annoyed that in order to make the car "safe" for the lowest common denominator the car would be devoid of a soul. Then - you make it switchable, and said ***** never realizes HE was just the reason it was needed, he turns it off, and cleanses the gene pool, and now we have TC that's even MORE intrusive and not able to be turned off AT ALL.

So.... the people that need it - won't use it - and the folks that don't NEED or WANT it will end up being stuck with a more aggressive form. Sigh.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Agreed and that is what makes me wonder, exactly what image is it they are after?

Originally, I thought being the center of attention and the ability to blow everything else away was why I bought a Viper. I grew up to understand that I enjoy the car because I like the way it looks. Now I hate being the center of attention, and I can't drive anywhere near the limits of this car because I AM SCARED of it. The first time the back end of my 99 RT/10 came around suddenly and without warning pretty much sealed the deal. I rarely drove the GTS aggressively and yes, the SRT-10 takes a good bit more to provoke the demons, but they are still there. I know they are.

I am not scared of the M6, E55 or 911 turbo. Cars I have driven with similar performance.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Originally, I thought being the center of attention and the ability to blow everything else away was why I bought a Viper. I grew up to understand that I enjoy the car because I like the way it looks. Now I hate being the center of attention, and I can't drive anywhere near the limits of this car because I AM SCARED of it. The first time the back end of my 99 RT/10 came around suddenly and without warning pretty much sealed the deal. I rarely drove the GTS aggressively and yes, the SRT-10 takes a good bit more to provoke the demons, but they are still there. I know they are.

I am not scared of the M6, E55 or 911 turbo. Cars I have driven with similar performance.

If you want the security of a Nanny contact Woodhouse and buy the Racelogic system. But to suggest the rest of the sports car purest should be forced to have a Nanny, because a few drivers are not willing to take responsibility for Car Control, is pretty selfish and intellectually empty point of view! IMHO

If one is so concerned about losing control of a car then why not limit horse power? Limit speed? Do not allow engine modifications?

 

[REDSLED]

Why not have the factory install "baby buggy bumpers" while your at it just in case you bump another car while parking. You are 65 and racing on a public road with a passenger in the car asleep no less. The problem isn't the lack of traction control, it's with people, doing stupid things. A Viper is a Viper because it is a sports car in raw form, just like it's predecessor the AC Cobra and Daytona Coupe. I applaud Dodge for keeping to the original idea of the Viper.

 

[Janni]

Originally, I thought being the center of attention and the ability to blow everything else away was why I bought a Viper. I grew up to understand that I enjoy the car because I like the way it looks. Now I hate being the center of attention, and I can't drive anywhere near the limits of this car because I AM SCARED of it. The first time the back end of my 99 RT/10 came around suddenly and without warning pretty much sealed the deal. I rarely drove the GTS aggressively and yes, the SRT-10 takes a good bit more to provoke the demons, but they are still there. I know they are.

I am not scared of the M6, E55 or 911 turbo. Cars I have driven with similar performance.

Agreed fully - I am not afraid of my E55 WAGON (469 HP and over 500 ft lbs of torque) and I am ok with all the traction control nannies on it. But - it's usually me and the dogs in it - and I won't be bringing it to Viper Days... and it's not a sports car. And it's an automatic. And I don't think of it as a car that I am going to get seat of the pants feedback on... It's a TOTALLY different beast.

 

[slaughterj]

Agreed and that is what makes me wonder, exactly what image is it they are after?

The image of looking like and being cool like Chuck of course.

 

[slaughterj]

if the argument is that these cars NEED traction / stability control in order to save drivers from themselves (and that's a valid argument, by the way) I don't see how Dodge could make it defeatable 100%. And then - the first ***** that switches the TC/SC off and immediately totals their car making a u-turn - don't laugh - it'll happen - Dodge will get sued and there goes the "optional" phase of our program.

I think that's exaggerating the situation - my 99 Mustang GT had a button on the console to turn TC on and off, which means a lot of people out there had it going back to then in Mustangs, 8 years ago, and I haven't heard a whiff of anything happening like that.

the Viper is now being cross shopped with the likes of the Jaguar, BMWs, Cadillacs, etc - because of the relative commonness of 500 or so HP. So - you are getting a TOTALLY different buyer. They ask about power seats, Homelink, (gasp) even automatics. Then - they get in the Viper and drive it like their Camry. Results posted here daily, unfortunately. I blame the true convertible - it removed one of the biggest compromises and brought in the non-purists that weren't willing to put up with the "roadster". But that's just me.

Perhaps, but as someone who put more than a few miles on a roadster, I appreciate the ease of use of the true convertible which enables even more driving.