Why so much difference in S/C prices???
- Thread starter BACKNBLACK
- Start date
CitySnake
Enthusiast
I'm sorry, but this thread is a bit foolish. This is a classic discussion of "bolt on" vs. "open motor" work. Of course the bolt on system is less expensive and yields proportionately less. One type of SC is removable and the other is not. There is no better...in fact, I really, can't imagine that owners have any problem deciding between the two options...the few questions that you would ask yourself to make a determination leave you with an EASY decision. Although all the smack and innuendo makes for a fun read.
BlueGTS
Viper Owner
CitySnake, I agree with statement that the decision is EASY. I posted this on another thread but it comes down to 2 questions.
1. How much do you want to spend?
2. How much HP do you really want?
If you think about both questions for a while and answer both of them truthfully, the decision will make itself.
1. How much do you want to spend?
2. How much HP do you really want?
If you think about both questions for a while and answer both of them truthfully, the decision will make itself.
BACKNBLACK
Enthusiast
City, excuse me but I feel that my question was honest and I truly wanted to know why THE cost difference. Now since you seem like the Gurru of knowing the subject so well, why don't you explain it. We have here horses vs.boltons vs.money vs. motor work..The bottom line is, if you are doing 10.7's vs 11's..Is the additional $10,000 worth that close of time for the street...Explain city and I AM PUTTING YOU ON THE SPOT... I am the foolish post writter...no smack intended...
Before I doze off. These are some "base" prices I was given from various tuners.
DLM - (approx) 22k for 700-750 rwhp (s/c, intercooled, fuel cell, transporting)
Heffner - (approx) 22k for 700-750 rwhp (s/c. intercooled, rebuild motor with forged pistons and different cam, transporting)
ROE - (approx) 9k for 560-570 rwhp (s/c, roller rockers, tb's)
This is based on my '01 car with existing mods and obvious hp #'s are speculative from the tuners themselves.
So for me it would cost around $73/hp to send my car to DLM or Heffner and around $60/hp to put the ROE kit on myself.
With that being said the biggest ? is how much does someone wnat to spend and how power is one looking for and is one willing to do the work themselves or be without the car for a period of time. No system is immune to problems and if someone tries to convince you of that then that, to me, would be the biggest disservice of all.
Hopefully, I have not misquoted anyone as these were the "base" prices given to me. Obviously for more power the price would certainly climb.
DLM - (approx) 22k for 700-750 rwhp (s/c, intercooled, fuel cell, transporting)
Heffner - (approx) 22k for 700-750 rwhp (s/c. intercooled, rebuild motor with forged pistons and different cam, transporting)
ROE - (approx) 9k for 560-570 rwhp (s/c, roller rockers, tb's)
This is based on my '01 car with existing mods and obvious hp #'s are speculative from the tuners themselves.
So for me it would cost around $73/hp to send my car to DLM or Heffner and around $60/hp to put the ROE kit on myself.
With that being said the biggest ? is how much does someone wnat to spend and how power is one looking for and is one willing to do the work themselves or be without the car for a period of time. No system is immune to problems and if someone tries to convince you of that then that, to me, would be the biggest disservice of all.
Hopefully, I have not misquoted anyone as these were the "base" prices given to me. Obviously for more power the price would certainly climb.
VIPERCANE
Enthusiast
Cratica, what do u have against Larry Macedo?? He has been a stand up guy from day one and has always been of assistance not only to the Viper community, but to owners of many other cars. Have u even met this gentleman? Before u go disrespecting someone that many think so highly of, I think u should give him a fair shake and meet the man first. I try to stay out of this SC war, as there are more important things in life to be concerned about......but when you personally attack someone on a public forum without having any personal dealings with him, then u have a problem, sir. If I am wrong, and you have had a bad dealing with Larry, let us know about it. Would love to hear your gripe against Larry. If not, I think u owe him an apology. Don't despise him because he is a Viper tuner competing with another tuner out there that you might have as a favorite, that is if u do. Come on folks, from a question on SCs, we have gone insulting members of the Viper community. These are all the same folks that are trying to get the Viper to be the ultimate beast against the other makes. We should be proud of Roe, DLM, Heffner, Macedo, and the other tuners out there that make the Viper such an enjoyable beast, where it has become a passion to own one.
Bindy
Bindy
CitySnake
Enthusiast
BnB:
My post was more to suggest that the discussion following your initial post was foolish, NOT to suggest that of your thread topic. J.Smith's response (with minor mods) is as precise as I could ever be. Simple
My post was more to suggest that the discussion following your initial post was foolish, NOT to suggest that of your thread topic. J.Smith's response (with minor mods) is as precise as I could ever be. Simple
onerareviper
Enthusiast
DLM - (approx) 22k for 700-750 rwhp (s/c, intercooled, fuel cell, transporting)
Heffner - (approx) 22k for 700-750 rwhp (s/c. intercooled, rebuild motor with forged pistons and different cam, transporting)
ROE - (approx) 9k for 560-570 rwhp (s/c, roller rockers, tb's)
Assuming this pricing is correct, it is still very hard to determine anything from peak HP numbers. I just don't think it is a fair comparision. I remember reading a posts from SW and 1Tony1, in which they had a standard Roe blower/headers/exhaust - possibly TB's, I can't remember. If memory serves, they were around 10.5 at 137, give or take. Now that is with 570-600 RWHP. I realize the biggest dogs (Treynor/DLM or GaryA/Heffner) could probably beat this time by a few tenths, but I'm not positive the kits listed above could touch that E.T. Assuming equal drivers, of course... To bad we can't get a hot-shoe driver to run all the kits from 0-150 MPH. Now that would be worth watching.......
fuelman
VCA Venom Member
Mr. Crappia,
Do you even own a Viper? Your about as far off as you can be on this post, just as you are on Macedo Motorsports reputation. There are few people in the Viper world with a reputation as sterling as Mr. Larry Macedo. If you are going to slander someone's business you should consult a lawyer first. This post was meant for information on superchargers, really no one else except supercharged viper owners should have responded. Especially a mis-informed lying gossip spreading twit like yourself. If you want to knock someone's reputation you should wait for one of the gatherings and do it in person.
I agree onerare, for me I want performance #'s not dyno sheets.
It would be interesting to see how a basic setup would perform and it seems someone would have some et's to share with us.
However, price is an issue and some may want peak hp #'s and that was my basis for the comparison. And as far as drivers, I bet Paolo would be willing to take these beasts to their limits. Say maybe 230 or 240 in his cruise missile.
It would be interesting to see how a basic setup would perform and it seems someone would have some et's to share with us.
However, price is an issue and some may want peak hp #'s and that was my basis for the comparison.
And as far as drivers, I bet Paolo would be willing to take these beasts to their limits. Say maybe 230 or 240 in his cruise missile. Just a couple of graphs.
ROE kit with "vec 1"
Heffner s/c
Dr Roof's car a year ago.
Just wanted to compare their curves.
ROE kit with "vec 1"
You must be registered for see images
Heffner s/c
You must be registered for see images
Dr Roof's car a year ago.
You must be registered for see images
Just wanted to compare their curves.
Heysie
Enthusiast
my car is almost bone stock......and even I have sometimes troubles....
BigCarrot
Enthusiast
All I see is the Roe graph. Am I the only one?
Fuelman,
Nice professional post.
I am allowed to have an opinion and express it. My opinion is that I personally
don't respect [******] for all the published, documented reasons, or anyone who backs him and wouldn't purchase anything from them regardless of how good the product is. I have that right, no attorney can take that away.
Now, back to the topic at hand.
Nice professional post.
I am allowed to have an opinion and express it. My opinion is that I personally
don't respect [******] for all the published, documented reasons, or anyone who backs him and wouldn't purchase anything from them regardless of how good the product is. I have that right, no attorney can take that away.
Now, back to the topic at hand.
V10 MOJO
Enthusiast
alot of good points again. its all about three things; personal preference, frivolous spending habit, and your damnn bank account. lets face it, you may have 1000hp a la dlm yet you still get your balls handed to you by a 10K f body at the strip cause you ran mid tens. so you gotta decide why you want the stuff to begin with if its for drag then dont be a fool cause it aint worth it, bragging rights are more of a legit reason than 1/4 mile times. every man at some point and time wants to be the swinging dick on the block and there aint nothing wrong with that. as for reliability and all the other issues regarding this beat to death topic, bottom line they are all [******] good tuners each of which folow different paths to the finished product.
BigCarrot
Enthusiast
I still can't see the graphs! Am I the only one that can only see the Roe?
Dr Roof
Enthusiast
I think I should invest and buy some more vipers and install a Heffner S/C and another with a Roe and then a TT from [******] and do a real comparison. I will keep the fastest and best all around performer and sale the rest!
We need to have an all blown event. With a street cruise and several styles of racing to compete so we can have an acurate comparison.
No doubt they all will have their shining moments!
We need to have an all blown event. With a street cruise and several styles of racing to compete so we can have an acurate comparison.
No doubt they all will have their shining moments!
BigCarrot
Enthusiast
How about an event where we all GET blown? Now that would be fun! You can count me in!
V10 MOJO
Enthusiast
now that sounds like a fun event. umm is a buffet included, LOL
MES
Enthusiast
Some interesting data points from the graphs above(just lined them up with my eye so they are not exact). I used a graph from the 8 lb Roe kit (not the one above) to make a more fair comparison as the other two graphs were 8 psi or higher. Note the 8 lb Roe graph was not properly tuned so it looks a little weird at the end.
RPM Roe Heff DLM
2500 290 240 240
3000 380 320 320
3500 450 420 450
4000 510 520 560
4500 540 620 650
5000 590 730 690
5500 610 770 780
It's not until 4,500 RPM's that the others start to significantly outgun the Roe blower. Note the 110 rwhp increase in the Heffner car from 4500 to 5000 and the 90 rwhp increase of the DLM car from 5000 to 5500 but only modest gains (30 & 50 rwhp) of the Roe blower in that same range. It would be interesting to see what a heads/cam Roe blower graph would look like as I believe both of the other cars had some top end work.
RPM Roe Heff DLM
2500 290 240 240
3000 380 320 320
3500 450 420 450
4000 510 520 560
4500 540 620 650
5000 590 730 690
5500 610 770 780
It's not until 4,500 RPM's that the others start to significantly outgun the Roe blower. Note the 110 rwhp increase in the Heffner car from 4500 to 5000 and the 90 rwhp increase of the DLM car from 5000 to 5500 but only modest gains (30 & 50 rwhp) of the Roe blower in that same range. It would be interesting to see what a heads/cam Roe blower graph would look like as I believe both of the other cars had some top end work.
You must be registered for see images
Doug Supercharged Vipers
Enthusiast
Mike -
On a dynomometer the centrifugal blower with an intercooler will not show it's full potential unless you produce enough flowing air that equates to over 60 mph as a start. And still that would not be enough. Note where the actual speed is at on the end of the dyno pull, probably over 140 mph. The intercooler won't receive enough air to exchange heat to keep the discharge temperatures cool enough to measure the engines full potential. The intercooler can actually become a restriction.
Good luck with your new ET's, I know you'll do well!
Best Regards,
Doug
On a dynomometer the centrifugal blower with an intercooler will not show it's full potential unless you produce enough flowing air that equates to over 60 mph as a start. And still that would not be enough. Note where the actual speed is at on the end of the dyno pull, probably over 140 mph. The intercooler won't receive enough air to exchange heat to keep the discharge temperatures cool enough to measure the engines full potential. The intercooler can actually become a restriction.
Good luck with your new ET's, I know you'll do well!
Best Regards,
Doug
MES
Enthusiast
Thanks for the explanation Doug.
J Smith I have not yet ran it at the track but plan going soon, possibly next week. I'm expecting similar times to what I did with nitrous.
BTW that is not my graph it's one of Sean's. I still have the 5 lb pulley but will be upgrading as soon as Sean releases the high output pulley. I already have the larger 50 lb injectors installed.
J Smith I have not yet ran it at the track but plan going soon, possibly next week. I'm expecting similar times to what I did with nitrous.
BTW that is not my graph it's one of Sean's. I still have the 5 lb pulley but will be upgrading as soon as Sean releases the high output pulley. I already have the larger 50 lb injectors installed.
Let me set the story straight with some facts....money V.S. power & torque. It is fact a Creampuff (cast piston Viper) is much more costly to make very fast, than older cars. First you must change pistons to forged and possibly get a more aggresive cam, then do you trust some your older parts with your more power parts. Every time you add new parts it is more money.... just a few things to ponder. The tuner you have choosen to do your major power upgrade what kind of mark up do they use resonable, expensive or outrageous markup.
I current hold the record for the fastest Macedo/Roe supercharger previously 1st held by SW( 10.5??) and then held by 1 Tony1 (10.48). My time set at V-10 Nationals was a 10.361. Something you might think about this was done with only 8 lbs of boost. Just 8 lbs !!
Why can I run so fast on only 8 lbs of boost ....first Larry Macedo has built one KICK A$$ motor , Second Sean Roe has an incredably effectant supercharger and a awesome Vec2.1 fuel /timing mangement system. My dyno graph is a steady 45 degree rise it develops power down low and continues to rise evenly all the way up... Power low, mid and high with no spiking. Will how long has Sean been building S/C what over 1 year less than 2 years. Larry Macedo has built how many S/C cars. Of Larry Macedo S/C ...Only 2 race regularly ....Mine( 2001 R/T 10) @ 10.361 and Fuelman a true 'Creampuff' (2001 GTS Both cars are Sapphire) with on a couple mods @ 11.13. I personly thinks this only shows a portion of Larry incredable craftmanship. I personly can't wait to see what his twin turbo car will run.
I can tell you for a fact there is NO other tuner that can build a car as fast and reliable as mine for the dollars I have spent! Last time I had a mod done to my car I gave Larry my credit card and told him to just charge me.... there is NO other tuner I would trust like this.
I also think Sean Roe should be comened for his outstanding comitment to customer service and very fair pricing.I think Larry and Sean have shown the Viper community how much hps and speed you can get for the buck. There is nothing more benafical to the bussiness world than competition!
I personaly feel the Viper community is spoiled by having DLM, Heffner, Roe and Macedo to get the speed and horspower we get for dollars spent compaired to Ferrais, Porschae and Lamborghini.
Cudaman
I current hold the record for the fastest Macedo/Roe supercharger previously 1st held by SW( 10.5??) and then held by 1 Tony1 (10.48). My time set at V-10 Nationals was a 10.361. Something you might think about this was done with only 8 lbs of boost. Just 8 lbs !!
Why can I run so fast on only 8 lbs of boost ....first Larry Macedo has built one KICK A$$ motor , Second Sean Roe has an incredably effectant supercharger and a awesome Vec2.1 fuel /timing mangement system. My dyno graph is a steady 45 degree rise it develops power down low and continues to rise evenly all the way up... Power low, mid and high with no spiking. Will how long has Sean been building S/C what over 1 year less than 2 years. Larry Macedo has built how many S/C cars. Of Larry Macedo S/C ...Only 2 race regularly ....Mine( 2001 R/T 10) @ 10.361 and Fuelman a true 'Creampuff' (2001 GTS Both cars are Sapphire) with on a couple mods @ 11.13. I personly thinks this only shows a portion of Larry incredable craftmanship. I personly can't wait to see what his twin turbo car will run.
I can tell you for a fact there is NO other tuner that can build a car as fast and reliable as mine for the dollars I have spent! Last time I had a mod done to my car I gave Larry my credit card and told him to just charge me.... there is NO other tuner I would trust like this.
I also think Sean Roe should be comened for his outstanding comitment to customer service and very fair pricing.I think Larry and Sean have shown the Viper community how much hps and speed you can get for the buck. There is nothing more benafical to the bussiness world than competition!
I personaly feel the Viper community is spoiled by having DLM, Heffner, Roe and Macedo to get the speed and horspower we get for dollars spent compaired to Ferrais, Porschae and Lamborghini.
Cudaman
Maverick The Electrician
Enthusiast
I think it all depends on what you want to do with the car. If you are interested in a little bit of power than the lower priced SC would be best for your needs and budget.If you want to go all out and be the biggest baddest on the block than a custom high end SC would be the best choice. You can't compare apples to oranges. My theory of these cars not getting into the 9's is seat time. All of the cars here in Texas have spent week after week testing at the track. Almost all of the high end SC cars go to several events, but ask any driver, you cant learn the car if you don't go to the track. It is more than stepping on the gas and going straight. These SC systems you are talking about are apples to oranges.
BlueGTS
Viper Owner
Cudaman, what was your trap speed when you ran your 10.3? What is a normal trap speed for an 8psi Roe SCer without a built motor? I am wondering if 130+ is possible without 1.7's, headwork, cams, etc.
Paolo Castellano
Enthusiast
I personaly feel the Viper community is spoiled by having DLM, Heffner, Roe and Macedo to get the speed and horspower we get for dollars spent compared to Ferrais, Porsche and Lamborghini.
Cudaman
[/QUOTE]
Cudaman, You have hit the nail on the head regarding the quality reliable HP/$$$$ available today as compared to even a few years back with all of the new tuners now for the Vipers. The amazing thing here is all these tuners fill a certain niche in a community where not that many cars were made, amazing! The Viper has always been a relative bargain in any area when compared to any of the high priced exotics; It always has and always will.
Cudaman
[/QUOTE]
Cudaman, You have hit the nail on the head regarding the quality reliable HP/$$$$ available today as compared to even a few years back with all of the new tuners now for the Vipers. The amazing thing here is all these tuners fill a certain niche in a community where not that many cars were made, amazing! The Viper has always been a relative bargain in any area when compared to any of the high priced exotics; It always has and always will.
Albert i agree with you however i am puzzled why they have good sixty foot ie: 1.46 and mph 140+ and still miss the 9's. I am wondering if maybe the average horsepower is lacking, it seems when drag racing you should be in your power band all the time say (4500rpm to 6500rpm). Other cars with that sixty foot and mph are solid in the 9's.
Similar threads
