Window Regulator -GEN 3/4 Archilles Heel

[Black Moon]

There is one on ebay for $150 I was thinking about buying so I had a spare drivers side. It only has one crack in the tube which if reinforced and repaired now the way we did will save it from the trash bin.

 

[slysnake]

Thanks for the ideas msaba

 

[Nine Ball]

.its just plain ridiculous and Dodge had better own up to this. i wonder if this happens with the corvette guys cars or the Cadillacs?

Owned a couple C6 Corvettes and also Cadillacs. GM doesn't have this window indexing problem. My '06 Viper coupe does, on the driver's door. Pathetic.

 

[Nine Ball]

Also, I wish someone would post pictures of what we are dealing with. Maybe some good brainstorming could take place to find a DIY solution. Msaba, any pics of what you did?

 

[msaba]

Also, I wish someone would post pictures of what we are dealing with. Maybe some good brainstorming could take place to find a DIY solution. Msaba, any pics of what you did?

Unfortunately, no, I forgot to take photos before I closed it up. But there are some good shots in this thread:

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/637804-Window-Lift-Making-Cracking-Sound

What I did was similar but the tubing I picked up looked more solid than some of the stuff people used there. I also didn't bother gluing or using wire to prop it. I think I would've had a harder time keeping it all together if I had made the fix with the regulator out of the door and tried to stuff it back into the door. With everything kept bolted in place, yeah it's a little tight in there, but once you clamp things in place it doesn't feel like it can really move.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Add me to the list. 09 with 4,500 miles and passenger window needs new regulator. Any tips to lessen the chance of happening again (or at least prolonging it)?

 

[latamud]

My 03 regulator tabs broke and my passenger glass fell into the door. The regulator seems in tact although the remains of the tab on the front track doesn't move down when switch engaged, probably because there is no weight on it. If I pull it down with switch down it will move, and the switch will raise it. The rear tab, the metal piece is still on the glass but definitely a clean break. I just ordered the replacement regulator from VPA. I think I'll go ahead and reinforce it before installing. I want to play with the broken one and see what I can come up with for a workable solution.

 

[latamud]

Here's the photos of the regulator damage on my passenger side.

Nylon tubing is cracked, broken and looks like its missing large chunks. Actually, i just looked at it again. The section that looks like its missing a large chunk is actually where I pulled the inner coil core out of the track and sat it down. The inner coil core is supposed to ride inside one track at a time. It's a single core riding on a gear turned by the motor. So when one end is pushing the coil core up the opposite end is pulling up.

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This is the plastic clip that mounts the forward end of the passenger window. On the glass is mounted a grooved peg that slides into the oblong hole and is retained with a hairpin type c-clip. The c-clip had slipped out allowing the front edge of my glass to drop often. I believe this is due to the glass misaligned-rising through the rubber triangle on top of the door adding stress to the hairpin and popping it out of the plastic clip. I believe the weight of the window at this angle also caused the rear edge clip to snap, pics to follow.

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This is the passenger rear-track. Large chunks of nylon tube missing. If you look at the track on the upper left corner there's a white spot. That is the break from the rest of the window clip, also the part the end of the cable attaches to.

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Same thing, different angle. Here we see the coil core runs through the channel. This coil core must be able to run freely through the nylon tubing, the corners and the tracks.

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This is metal pad has the plastic clip slipped into it. The two holes is where the rear edge of the glass mounts.

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Because the plastic clip broke inside the rail I can do this.

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[Sonoman]

Wow, lots of good pics, Latamud! Interesting that yours still functioned with so much of the outer tube/sheathing missing. It's just criminal how much these short-lived window mechanisms cost.

 

[latamud]

It's not missing chunks of tubing, I realized after I took the pics that the track should be closer to the motor. If I allow the exposed coil core to retract back into the track the cracks in the tube match up. I actually figured a way to repair the broken clip and will try an idea for the tubing too.

 

[Ripper]

Wow, lots of good pics, Latamud! Interesting that yours still functioned with so much of the outer tube/sheathing missing. It's just criminal how much these short-lived window mechanisms cost.

Insanely over priced for such junk. I almost cried when I had to replace my driver's side one.

Good Thread Latamud. Keep us posted if you find a fix that works.

 

[latamud]

Insanely over priced for such junk. I almost cried when I had to replace my driver's side one.

Good Thread Latamud. Keep us posted if you find a fix that works.

I can fix my regulator better than factory. Unfortunately I already ordered a new flawed regulator from MOPAR/VPA and it's 20% restocking fee for me to cancel it even through it hasn't arrived at VPA yet. Considering they were back ordered anyway, I don't see value in losing $200 for them to hold onto it for the next customer to order one. I'm sure they stocked more than just the one I bought. What's so hard about taking all that comes in and shelving them, and not having to packing up the one I ordered and not having to ship it out. I'm jut disappointed. Anyway, I'll save that for further R&D I suppose. I'm going to look into replacing plastic corners with aluminum pieces, and something better to replace the tubing in the long run. I've already found a fix for the broken window clip, will post that up when it's ready. Here's what I accomplished today.

This is what all the tubing looks like when pulled tight together, I'm not missing tubing chunks but it is broken at 3 of 4 ends and cracked in the middle on the short half. I removed the 3 torques screws hat mount the backing to the motor mount. This exposes the inner coil core and a ring gear that the motor actuates. The ring gear teeth ride inside the coil core, so the coil core is actually a worm gear.

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Here, I have removed the rivets and bent tabs that retain the plastic corners. This shows better the coil core as it is attached to the window clips on either end. When the motor turns, the coil core is drawn through the tubing respective of the direction of the switch.

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One end of the tubing slips into a sleeve and fits into the motor backing plate via corrugated guides, shown below. The other side tubing is just pressed into the backing plate. The tubing was already snapped on the exposed ends. The portions still left in the corner and corrugated piece, I drilled out the excess tubing. I didn't remove all of the tubing from the corner, it does extend the full length of the curve. Leaving some of the tubing at the end gives me something to but the new tubing against. Inside you can still see the black copper compression ring. I left those in there.

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Here you can see the corner, broke tubing and corrugated end butted against each other for reference. I am using copper tubing wrapped in PVC to replace the old tubing.

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Old and new eyeball reference.

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Here's everything ready for reassembly. Also you can see the coil core separate from everything. The coil core looks like it has a long pipe cleaner inside of it, probably to hold the grease.

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Both window clips twist onto the end of the coil core via spiral tubes cast into the plastic. This is the piece that broke off the other side. Both sides were twisted on 6 revolutions.

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My broken spiral from the window clip.

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I will revisit this as I come up with a repair.

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This isn't done but this is basically what it will look like completed.

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The flaw is the weak and flexible tubing. When it breaks it allows the coil core to get caught on the broken edges of the tubing or plastic corners. The fix is to create a smooth path for the coil core to move freely. ALL o this really makes a lot of sense seeing everything in person and getting hands-on. I imagine SRT is going to use an improved design of the 2003-2010 regulator in the 2013. I imagine them ding this to make an improved alternative for the flawed older regulator. Lets hope so. Otherwise, I'm going to make an upgrade kit.

 

[JAY]

Great work ! If this is the Build Quality of A HALO CAR ! It sure doesn't inspire me to Buy a New One !!! JMO

 

[latamud]

I've been looking at a lot of Chrysler regulators. This seems to be a problem across the board. The Viper regulator needed to be compact for the tight door and light weight and simple design because it is for a Viper. I can only imagine it costs so much because of the Viper tax. If I had more time I'd track down the China/India factory and fix these at the source. Someone is making these. The lifespan of these regulators is as long as the weakest link. The tubing is probably fairly flexible when it first comes off the assembly line. Over time, hot/cold cycles, the plastic tubing gets brittle. These are going to break just sitting in people garages.

If anyone has an old broken regulator sitting around, I need a driver's side for reference. I only have pics to go on but besides the tracks I see other side specific pieces.

 

[malcoll]

Great work and pix. I have another year on my extended warranty, have had one set of regulators replaced and I think I have the drivers side going out again........ I am anxious to see how your upgrade works when all is installed.... and I'll be looking to do this when the next regulators break!

 

[chorps]

Do you think it is worthwhile to 'upgrade' an unbroken regulator or wait until it breaks?

 

[latamud]

Do you think it is worthwhile to 'upgrade' an unbroken regulator or wait until it breaks?

I'm not going to make that decision for anyone. They way I look at it, I'm already in there. The tubing will be the same for both passenger and driver side just swapped end to end. I can use the tubing I made as a template for the other side. My driver side is great, but I'm going to make the tubes for it now so when it does go I'll be ready. I was a little worried drilling into the plastic corners, and slip and I could have ripped it to pieces. I know I have a new one coming to me in a few days anyway so wasn't too worried.

 

[Darbgnik]

Would you guys believe the regulators for my Lambo G are less than 300 a piece. Both are working BTW.

 

[Black Moon]

Have you installed the repaired unit to see how it works?

 

[Alabaster Mamba]

Is it possible to buy a different Chrysler regulator and scavenge parts to fix the one used on the Viper? One that I am referring to as a possible loaner part is listed below.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/regulator-w...Parts_Accessories&hash=item460682b101&vxp=mtr

 

[Black Moon]

Looks similar but not the same. I think the Viper one only comes with the motor. I would imagine someone would have done a cross reference to check other fittment.
That's the problem with the Viper. It's so unique that every part was designed for that car only.

Is it possible to buy a different Chrysler regulator and scavenge parts to fix the one used on the Viper? One that I am referring to as a possible loaner part is listed below.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/regulator-w...Parts_Accessories&hash=item460682b101&vxp=mtr

 

[latamud]

Have you installed the repaired unit to see how it works?

I live in a condo right now waiting to close on my house and have my car in the assigned spot in the secure parking garage. To keep appearances that my car was secured, I propped the door glass up with cardboard and the suction cup from my GPS. My first weekend with the in Tampa, I had to take it out. I am still working on the window clip repair. I threw 3 different ideas at it and the last one was a quick rush as it was getting late and I wanted to drive it. Long story short it works, but my hasty repair will need attention soon. Knowing I was going to pull it out soon I didn't take any pics. I also bought a door with all the hardware I'm going to use for R&D.
I started out removing the glass from the door, it just slides out, but be careful, the front has a mounting peg that could hook something. I reached in with one hand To make sure it wasnt going to tear the inner weatherstrip. Because I didn't glue my tubing and the ends I was able to slip my tubing ends out and fold everything up to fit inside the door. Had I hard mounted everything it would have been impossible because my tubing does not flex anymore. I see why some have resorted to gluing the tubing to the corners. I had the regulator loosely mounted without the glass. I ran the motor up and down. Because I didn't tighten it down yet the pressure created as the motor pushes the coil core one way forced the tubing out of the ends some and the one track away from the motor. I assume on the other side the tubing is tight and the track is drawn toward the motor. This might explain in part why the tube breaks at the ends, if any of the hardware is mounted loose the mechanism will try to pull the tubes apart during operation. I had to get everything to neutral, meaning nothing was binding, so the tubing would fully settle back into the ends. I tightened the motor and tracks into place. From here without glass it was great. It worked up and down smooth, no odd popping nor noises.
Stepping back, my hasty fix for my broken window clip. I found that no matter what I used to replace the plastic tube that brake off, it had to be about the same diameter as the coil core. Anything thicker and it would bind inside the track groove. My hasty fix, I used a thin piece of scrap steel and cut a few slits on one end. The slits created fingers, which I wrapped around the end of the coil core. It looked similar to a piano hinge. I could have cut up a fork and got the same result. The other end I used 1/8 rivets to mount it to the original metal clip. Once I got down to the car I realized the rivets were not sandwiching everything together tight, there was some play. also, my scrap is not perfectly smooth. Some burs and it's not perfectly round, it moves through the track groove but needs a little extra effort. Most will not have this problem. My clip broke because I didn't fix the window regulator sooner. I think I would have been okay had I replaced the hairpin clip on the forward edge mounting.
with the added weight of the glass and the crude clip repair I do still need to help my window up by hand. I have an idea for a modified rail that will just about eliminate any issue of binding. I'll work on that when my spare door comes in.

Is it possible to buy a different Chrysler regulator and scavenge parts to fix the one used on the Viper? One that I am referring to as a possible loaner part is listed below.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/regulator-w...Parts_Accessories&hash=item460682b101&vxp=mtr

For those reaching into the past and the above URL no longer exists, it's a 97-02 Plymouth Prowler regulator, and it looks very similar to the gen 3/4 regulator. Great find, that is the closest I've seen to the Viper regulator. You could scavenge the tubing, corners, tracks(different mounting tabs though), and possibly the coil core. The window clips are different. The engineers probably modified the prowler regulator to fit our Vipers. a quick search and the Prowler folks have the same problems and same fixes for their regulators. They break in the same places.

 

[ACRucrazy]

As you mentioned, the Prowlers are notorious for broken tabs/regulators. Wouldn't surprise me if it was a very similar design being it was built at CAAP.

 

[Sonoman]

For those following this thread I just took a quick peek through the opening in the back of the driver's door where it latches to the body jam. With a bright flashlight you can see the white tubing of the window regulator (look high inside the door) and check for visible breakage. On my 2005, the tubing looks good with a little yellowing near the upper corner. No breaks evident yet. I have been considering this weakness as an additional reason to buy an extended MaxCare warranty when mine expires next year. Also had considered reinforcing the corner joints with an epoxy/fiberglass wrap as detailed in other window regulator threads. Thanks to members like latamud for digging into these kinds of problems-- sometimes a thorough investigation will reveal a fix that can save others thousands or at least provide an affordable alternative fix for those without a warranty (more and more of us as time goes on).

 

[ROCKET62]

Lots of different approaches and ideas on fixing this. BTW - if you do not have this problem - DO NOT take out your regulator to inspect. I believe (and know first hand) that some of these problems are actually caused when the regulator is put in the door. The opening to put the regulator in barely accommodates the size of the regulator - so when the installer is putting the regulator in the door - it is very easy to cause stress cracks or a full blown crack in the plastic tubing. If you do take out the regulator or replace it - BE VERY CAREFUL putting it back in. DO NOT force it and take extra, extra care to not put too much stress on that long plastic tube - or you will crack it or cause stress cracks to it. I also would NOT put the plastic push pin type holder that holds the plastic tube to the door as if you look at where many of the cracks seem to be - it coincides with where that holder is (just my opinion.)

My fix is based on my belief that the plastic tubing is only there to hold the window track a preset distance from the motor. When the plastic tubing cracks - it changes this distance - therefore the window will not move the correct distance up or down. In theory - if you could glue the broken ends of the tube back together - you would be back in business - but there is actually quite a bit of force there - so not so easy to accomplish. Heck you could almost use duct tape to hold the tube back together - but again, the pressure put out by the motor would be too much (Although I do wonder if you used some gorilla tape wrapped "hockey stick style" with multiple layers if it would be strong enough?)

I used 2 strands of aircraft cable and ties which basically holds/reinforces the plastic cable together. The first cable is a straight cable that tries to mimic the length of the plastic cable. The second strand wraps the first cable and the plastic tube. I then covered these wires with some plastic tubing and zip ties so that if it came in contact with the window - it would not scratch it. I admit that it's not a "pretty fix" - but it was fairly easy to do without taking a lot of time and didn't cost too much. It seems to work just fine - but it's only been up/down about 100 times thus far.

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You can see the area where the original tube cracked right about here ..............................V.........................

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[latamud]

Nice pics, I almost did the multi layer wrapping too. I agree, the tubing is there to keep the tracks and the motor the proper distance apart so the front and rear of the window moves up and down at the same rate. When the tubing racks the inner coil core will move in a straight line rather than the curve of the tubing. The straight line is a shorter distance and will cause both ends to move up or down crooked.
I want to get rid of the tubing altogether. I have to be in Afghanistan in 4 weeks, so I'm going to have a lot of time to think about this.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Someday... someone will send us a broken one so we can be done with this nonsense. Believe it or not, I have not seen a broken one around here.

I already have ideas for billet replacement pieces, and composite replacement tubes, as well as another non-failure prone, non compressible, flexible alternative.

 

[chorps]

As you mentioned, the Prowlers are notorious for broken tabs/regulators. Wouldn't surprise me if it was a very similar design being it was built at CAAP.

I just did a search for Prowler regulator and found this:
Replace the broken plastic tube and cable drive assembly with a quality gear and lever drive that won’t let you down like the factory replacement parts will. Includes all parts necessary to make the change to the new style drive, including a new motor, detailed instructions and assembly pictures.

Not sure if this type of fix could be adapted to the Viper.

 

[Ripper]

Need more info.. link , etc?

I just did a search for Prowler regulator and found this:
Replace the broken plastic tube and cable drive assembly with a quality gear and lever drive that won’t let you down like the factory replacement parts will. Includes all parts necessary to make the change to the new style drive, including a new motor, detailed instructions and assembly pictures.

Not sure if this type of fix could be adapted to the Viper.

 

[latamud]

I just did a search for Prowler regulator and found this:
Replace the broken plastic tube and cable drive assembly with a quality gear and lever drive that won’t let you down like the factory replacement parts will. Includes all parts necessary to make the change to the new style drive, including a new motor, detailed instructions and assembly pictures.

Not sure if this type of fix could be adapted to the Viper.

Nice find. I was thinking something a little different but this could be the answer to our prayers. The Prowler regulator is so similar that it would be basic algebra to get this to work on the Viper.

http://www.prowleronline.com/tommills.html#PWRU