Would any automobile manufacturer dare compete in this test?

[TrackAire]

I enjoy seeing comparison tests, lap times, 1/4 mile times, etc just as much as the next guy. Although these results give us an idea of the cars performance potential, what I really care most about is on track performance....how the car can handle a roadcourse. Drag strip times and top speed are cool bragging rights, but for me, the real engineering of a car is what it can do on the road racing track. Unfortunately, we all look at what the "lap" time is and how quick a car can get around a track like Laguna Seca. Like the latest Motor Trend test that put a ZR1 vs the Gen 5, it made for interesting reading, lots of debate and a lot of stress. But, what about multiple laps (like a real life track day event)? I've been to a few different track day events and have seen multiple cars get very slow or sidelined due to overheating, brake issues, clutch failures, trans issues, etc.

Here is a test I would like to see run. A lot of world class cars can run a very fast lap, as both the ZR1 and the Gen 5 proved (yes, the Gen 5 pre-production car actually ran a very fast lap at Laguna Seca, even with all the "issues" we've been talking about). But in reality, who cares about one fast lap,....I know when I track my cars, I never do just one lap. 10 to 15 lap sessions, yes. Multiple times a day...yes. In 90 degree or more heat..yes. So, how about a real world test of what the cars behave like after say 10 laps at Laguna Seca (or any other world class track) in temperatures of at least 90 degrees?? We don't get to pick our track day weather, most are in the summer months so heat is a real issue. Why not do a test in real world conditions? So, here is my idea of a test that would really show what the car is made of.

Here are the basic rules:

A pro driver gets a couple of warm up laps then 2 to 3 laps to set a fast time. Once the fast time is established, the cars get a 2 hour cool down and then the pro driver gets to get back on the track. Start with 2 easy warm up laps and then go full out for at least 10 laps. The key here is to see how much slower the car gets as the laps progress (due to brakes going south, heat soak, oil temps, water temps, etc). What we're looking for is a car that can deliver consistently fast laps without huge drops in time as the laps go by (or complete shut down due to mechanical failure).

I don't think it is important to test all the cars at the same time, ultimate fast lap isn't going to be the issue. The car is competing more against itself than the other manufacturers. Overall percentage drop, failures, etc is what I'm more interested in.

Judging could include the following:

-Percentage drop (time increase) from fast lap to last lap

-Total time it took to complete the 10 laps

-Drivers input and feedback on how the car performed and felt during the 10 laps

-Data logging and report of the oil temp, water temp, trans temp, rear end temp, etc as the laps progressed.

-Brake stopping test (say 80 mph to 0 distance immediately after the 10 laps)

Overall, I think you might be suprised to find cars with very fast "single" laps might get beat time wise over the course of 10 laps by cars with 100 less horsepower and 3 to 5 seconds slower lap speeds on their "fastest lap".

Here is my guess which cars might make it to the 10 laps finish without being overly embarrased:

Gen 4 Viper (I'm guessing a Gen 5 should also be able to do it)
Corvette Grand Sport (I think the Z06 might start to get hot, especially oil-wise)
Ferrari 430 and 458
Some of the N/A Porsches
Lexus LFA (just guessing here...no on track experience with them)

Cars that would drop off performance-wise by lap 10:

Nissan GTR (trans would overheat after 5 or 6 laps)
ZR1 (betting it would start to heat soak)
Ford GT (start to run warm...heat soak)
BMW M cars (I know the M1 has oil temp problems when stock)
Aventador (brake fade per Motor Trends testing)
Mustang Boss 302 (starts to get hot)

Now if this test was actually to happen, which manufacturers would have the balls to enter a car?? Any car that finishes well in this type of test has to earn the respect of real drivers. Fast lap times are important, but having a car that does it for mulitple laps and multiple sessions in the heat of real world track days....now that is impressive.

Thoughts and opinions??

Cheers,
George

 

[mnc2886]

I think it is a good idea, but it has one major flaw. The tests we see are intended to be of stock, unmodified vehicles (unless you're a ZR1 needing to best a Gen V Viper, then you send a ringer, but we don't need to start that again do we?). With the street tires and a pro driver, I don't know if the tires would last 10 laps. MotorTrend, though they may be the most full of bull has stated that Randy Pobst runs 4 laps and no more because by the 4th lap the vehicle is going slow because he has driven the car so hard. In order to conduct this test in a meaningful way you'd need an aftermarket solution available to all vehicles in question. I can't imagine the amount of controversy this would start on comparisons and I doubt many brands would agree to the test.

In a perfect world where you could get the manufacturers to agree, you will still need the one lap, all in test because you would never run all in 10 laps in a row. Many people would still be curious as to what an all out effort would achieve. Great idea though. It would be neat for a good car reviewing source to partner with a tire manufacturer of pure racing tires and bolt the same model, albeit different sizes, on each vehicle respectively and let them have it.

 

[TrackAire]

From my experience, tires on high performance cars (like our PS2's) would have no problem doing 10 laps. Would they get greasy, hot, etc...yes, but they would not get worn out in 10 laps and cord. This would be part of the equation,....what lasts, what fails, etc. Nascar drivers can over drive their slicks, it's just part of driving hard.

This test would only matter and count for 100% stock cars, as delivered from the factory. I do think that it is only fair that the cars are checked to make sure the alignment, tire pressures, etc are all within spec.

The key to this test isn't what goes the fastest for one lap, but what the time is for 10 laps and how the car holds up. As the car gets hot, brakes start to fade, etc, the driver will have to slow down just to keep it on the track. How much the driver has to slow down is the key to this test. I'm betting some cars would not even be finish without going into limp mode.

Thanks for the comments, would be interesting to see what other cars others think might survive the 10 lap challenge.

Cheers,
George

 

[Paul Hawker]

Interesting.

Every year, at the 90 mile long Silver State Classic many high horsepower entrants fail along the course. Many have super high boost engines that look great on the dyno, but fail under sustained high speed stress.

In addition to Vipers, the cars that seem to hold up best under long, high stress forces are the German models.

 

[Jack B]

This thread is too full of common sense.

 

[Dom426h]

From my experience, tires on high performance cars (like our PS2's) would have no problem doing 10 laps. Would they get greasy, hot, etc...yes, but they would not get worn out in 10 laps and cord. This would be part of the equation,....what lasts, what fails, etc. Nascar drivers can over drive their slicks, it's just part of driving hard.

+1,

I track with ~200treadwear "summer" performance street tires.
Knowing the limit of your tires is part of the game IMO

-One option is to continuously run just below the limit of your tires (say driving 8.5/10ths). If you are good then very consistent lap times can be produced.
-Another option is to drive 10/10's for 2 or 3 laps then run one 7/10's cool down lap, alternating back and forth, back and forth.

I could run 9 conservative laps then throw down better time on the last
or run the first 9 laps hard and be left with a slow last lap due to sliding around on greasy tires.

For this reason i do no think that the proposal of Percentage drop (time increase) from fast lap to last lap for comparison would be a reliable comparison.
Total time it took to complete the 10 laps is what i would want to see. We know who has the 1 lap record at tracks, I want to know who has the 10,15,20 lap record because like TrackAire says; That is what we do at trackdays

 

[Dom426h]

IMO to successfully run a trackday on street tires it is very important to have a proper aggressive alignment with more camber than stock. Without camber the outside edge of your tires overheat quickly because all of the stress is on the outside edge around turns rather than being evenly distributed across the tire.
For this reason, i think that TrackAire's proposal(and awesome idea) should be modified to allow manufactures to adjust the alignment on their car to whatever they desire just as long as it is within the limits of the stock adjustment that us track go'ers also have access too.

I do think that all stock items like fluids & brake pads should remain in use for this "test" even though it is common for a track go'er to change em.

 

[emericr]

I think this idea makes way too much sense but it should run at the same time to avoid any issues of weather differences. This could easily be accomplished by any of the car mags and would really be interesting to see which manufacturer comes with what vehicle.
I would add a Mustang Boss 302, Mercedes CBS, Lotus Elise and Lambo gallardo superlegera to the list of worthy cars.

 

[TrackAire]

I think this idea makes way too much sense but it should run at the same time to avoid any issues of weather differences. This could easily be accomplished by any of the car mags and would really be interesting to see which manufacturer comes with what vehicle.
I would add a Mustang Boss 302, Mercedes CBS, Lotus Elise and Lambo gallardo superlegera to the list of worthy cars.

emericr,

As long as the track is dry, the numbers would be fair if the tests were within 5 degrees F of each other, does not have to be on the same day IMO. The key is not to find which car is the fastest amongst the competition, but which car can complete the 10 laps with the least drama and how much will the car slow down (if much at all) by the end of 10 laps. Regardless of what we think of Motor Trend, some of their data aquisition equipment is pretty good at showing lap times in segments, braking g's, lateral g's, etc. Add in some temperature reading and it could be very helpful in picking a car that will need minimal upgrades to have fun with when stock. Just about any performance car can be made into a decent track car if enough money and time is thrown at it...this type of test would show where you need to spend money first.

I've tracked with a Mustang Boss 302 in just under 90 degree weather and it did overheat (stock except for Hoosier R6's) enough that the owner felt he needed to bring it in to cool down. It did not overflow coolant, just got very hot on the gauge. (there is a new grill available that is suppose to stop this...you'd think Ford would make sure their track weapon would stay cool). It also threw a check engine light that did not make sense when we tried to read it with an OBD II scanner. After a couple of more sessions, the light went out on its own. For the money, that car was a blast around Thunderhill. I wonder how the newest Merc Black Series would hold up? (does the auto trans get hot??....don't know and I've never been on a track event with one). I forgot about the Elise, have been to multiple track events and have never seen one of them fail or get sidelined...their light weight and good balance obviously helps keep them in check. Tracked with a Lambo Superleggera Spyder this last December....who cares if it can run 10 laps, that car was awesome and looked like sex on wheels. I do know that in the last shootout that Motor Trend did that included the Aventador, they claimed that the brakes over heated at Laguna Seca....wasn't expecting that with the carbon ceramic rotors.

Cheers,
George

 

[Kai SRT10]

Great idea. This format would definitely favor the Viper, with it's naturally aspirated engine. I've seen a lot of turbo and s/c cars sidelined due to overheating after just a few laps.