Z06 is a compelling alternative to Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and Ford GT

[DSR207]

A chat with Dave Hill...

Corvetteforum: You've said in the past that you don't consider the Dodge Viper to be a competitor of the Corvette because it's from a different market segment. <font color="red">But I've heard some Viper owners say recently that they consider the C6 ZO6 to be a significant competitor - one some of them will buy to replace their Vipers. Was the strategy to lull to sleep the Viper designers and engineers and then catch them off guard with Corvette's bold new step?</font>
David Hill: Corvettes need to be more well balanced and less specialized than cars like today's Viper. We've extensively benchmarked the Viper and are confident that our Z06 will offer a compelling alternative. But Z06 is a compelling alternative to Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and Ford GT as well. We aim to grow the Corvette business by offering a better car.
.............................................................................

The Z06 wouldn't be my pick from that list, and many here agree ( Your pick) ."Corvetteforum" members are using our frustration with DC as a weapon. I Know I wont be shocked if 2007 Viper comes out with 550+hp, we know it can be easily done by DC, what would happen to the ZO6, knowing it's at the hp limit and selling in the seventies not the claimed low sixties:
("Posted Jun 14, 2005, 6:53 PM ET by Scott "I read a quote from Dave Hill (chief engineer on the Corvette brand) that went like this.
Reporter: Is the Corvette Z06 going to get a 5-10 hp boost every year like the previous models? Dave Hill: No, we've exhausted all our tricks on this engine."

I guess it will join the rest of the ZO6's, great for hauling groceries, you know, bigger trunk.

Chat with Dave hill

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

The GM hype department is really getting pathetic.

 

[vipah]

The GM hype department is really getting pathetic.

Well at least they are doing something. It looks like the DC guys are just hiding under their desks.

I would also read into Hill's comment about 'exhausting the limits of this engine' to mean they will be coming out with a new power plant in the future. Always expect the most from the competition and plan accordingly. If you are wrong you lose virtually nothing and come out on top, if you are right you still win.

Unfortunately our DC group wants to belittle the competition and ignore them. "It's still a corvette", yeah but its a corevette that is kicking you to the curb. Never a good strategy.

 

[Hirohawa]

A great sports car is also about balance, not just HP. The new Z is going to be a scorcher around the track. It is a light, fast, user friendly sports car that you will probably be able to clock 15,000 miles a year on it with no problems. But I do think the Viper Coupe is a better looking car - but it needs to get back the swagger of the original and be lighter and have a defeatable traction control.

The new Z has been tested and tuned at the ring, by GM an American company. DC is a German company and they have done no such testing with the new Viper Coupe. Doesn't anyone else think that is strange?

 

[Mopar426]

The GM hype department is really getting pathetic.

Yep, DC is hitting a homerun w/ the new Coupe.

I don't get it, instead of being pissed at DC for giving owners the "finger" you ***** how terrible the Z06 is when they are atleast taking the initiative.
But I guess you have to vent your frustration somewhere.

I thought it was a great move for Mopar to merge w/ Benz, I'm now having my doubts.

 

[sween]

i think its strange. i dont understand if there going to do a hp increase why not do it now than later. makes no sense to me

 

[Mopar426]

i think its strange. i dont understand if there going to do a hp increase why not do it now than later. makes no sense to me

My guess is maybe they will try to "shock" everyone w/ 550hp when it debutes, but I think that might be wishful thinking.

 

[sween]

i hope its not just wishful thinking

 

[Bwright]

Sween,

Increasing horsepower is not a simple thing for an OEM in practice. To increase horsepower significantly will require a federally mandated emissions recertification with a program cost north of $10mm. For a low volume production car like the Viper, especially with sales having slid 30% year-over-year, this is just not in the cards right now. The company is more focused on the model’s very survival rather than a costly expenditure that the program cannot afford right now.

In addition, as Hirohawa accurately pointed out, a great sports car is also about balance, not just HP. If it was all about horsepower then the twin-turbo Supra, twin-turbo Z and RX-7 would be here and the Boxster, SLK and Z3/Z4 would have been long gone. It has never been about pure horsepower. But those who ignore the lessons of history are, as always, doomed to repeat its failures. The simple fact is that the Viper program suffers because a small but vocal minority refuses to acknowledge the visible success of the things that have helped make Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Corvette, et al names which have lasted for decades.

Incidentally Hirohawa, the reason you do not see a Viper testing often at the Ring is, again, cost. Unlike the immensely successful Corvette program which generates a significant profit and so can afford it, DCX’s Viper program is unable to either justify or round up the cash to fly a couple of Vipers (MBs are already built in Germany so it’s just a drive), engineering staff and hired hotshoes out to the Ring for an extended stay with a full closed rental of the Ring for the time needed to test and setup a Viper. The program cost would be staggering. If you read Dodge Viper by Dan Carney you will soon see just how badly dollar driven decisions have wounded the Viper program. Sadly, the purported exclusiveness all too many Viper drivers cling to is actually a market reality caused by disinterest. If the car does not become more desirable (again, this is not a pure horsepower function) then plant shutdowns are going to be recurrent and prolonged. Then one day it will all end. Exclusiveness is nice, up to a point, if it is the result of deliberate refusal to build more (see Ferrari). If this is not the case then it quickly becomes very dangerous.

Though he sometimes puts it harshly Vipah is right and has been for some time now. As both he and Mopar426 accurately observe, too many Viper owners/intenders like to focus on belittling the Corvette when they are actually, successfully, doing something to take the fight to the European makes and everyone else.

Me, I wish all three Americans, Ford with the GT, Chevy with the Z06 and Dodge with the Viper could stand astride the sports/supercar world on road and track and reign supreme. Sadly, in a bizarre move by Ford, in supercharging the GT the car now cannot revisit Le Mans where it was first made famous. Dodge is too afraid to do the right thing for the struggling Viper program and so Chevy is left to bear the flag alone in pitched battles at Le Mans, the ALMS, the Nurburgring and elsewhere while its fellow American noncombatants (Ford and Dodge) take potshots at it. Incredible, embarrassing and truly sad.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

The GM hype department is really getting pathetic.

Yep, DC is hitting a homerun w/ the new Coupe.

I don't get it, instead of being pissed at DC for giving owners the "finger" you ***** how terrible the Z06 is when they are atleast taking the initiative.
But I guess you have to vent your frustration somewhere.

I thought it was a great move for Mopar to merge w/ Benz, I'm now having my doubts.

I bash GM, not so much the Vette. Go find the post where I call late model Vettes a POS. It's a fine car and formidable on the track, but as yet the new Z06 is just speculation against the SRT. GM has been hype since the 70s. If the Z06 mops up the Viper it will be the driver more than the car.

And I don't see where DC is giving the finger, not yet anyway. So they let GM catch up (maybe), 07 is what I'm banking on. If you haven't heard the rumors it's wait until next year. And if DC doesn't show up I'll join you DC bashers.

Not that it matters to any of you posers but the CC still owns. Only rules changes keeps the competition within reach. And it will continue to own after the new Z06.

 

[sween]

thanks alot for the info BWRIGHT.

 

[Wifey's Viper]

Another interesting point is that the new Z06 is the first 500hp car not to be subject to the Federal Gas Guzzler Tax of $3k. The mpg estimates are 16/27. The traction control will make a big difference in this car as well.

 

[Casey]

Hmmm, let me see. Corvette, Ferrari, Ford GT, Lambo.....

I want the corvette! Yeah, like that will ever be a thought when thinking of purchasing one of the other cars!

 

[AG98RT10]

Increasing horsepower is not a simple thing for an OEM in practice. ...
In addition, as Hirohawa accurately pointed out, a great sports car is also about balance, not just HP.

... Dodge is too afraid to do the right thing for the struggling Viper program and so Chevy is left to bear the flag alone in pitched battles at Le Mans, the ALMS, the Nurburgring and elsewhere while its fellow American noncombatants (Ford and Dodge) take potshots at it. Incredible, embarrassing and truly sad.

Some good points in BWright's post. HP is not cheap, but certainly, DC must have realized what was at stake with the new Coupe's entry? The 500 hp Z-06 number has been pretty well public knowledge for over a year. The MSRP was correctly projected by any number of folks to be under 70K. The Viper V10 is easily capable of putting out 550 or more HP with very little modification. And, as many have pointed out, the GTS-R already existed as a prototype to make the new coupe more like the Comp Coupe. But point well taken on the production numbers: GM makes thousands and thousands of Vettes every year, enabling them to spread costs more and achieve better economy of scale.

At some point one has to wonder if DC isn't really intent on killing the Viper platform. If I was looking at the diminishing sales figures of the SRT-10 the past two years, I'd be looking at really stirring things up, not putting out a cut-and-paste Coupe design with no more performance than the foundering SRT-10. And, who's going to buy a first year coupe if DC is already hinting at big HP changes in 2007? Just poor strategic planning, imo.

To the second point, I don't think Viper owners are really taking *** shots at the new Z so much as taking well-warranted snipes at the "typical Vette owner," and their self-satisfied declarations of being "viper-killers now." (This species does not need much further identification, as we've all seen them and enjoyed a laugh or two at their expense.) On the contrary, I think most of us truly recognize the accomplishment and congratulate GM for it. I think most of us wish DC would do more with the Viper (Speed GT success with comp coupe aside), and give us the car we really wanted in the GTS-R concept. With more HP and an ACR version for the track, maybe. But, I'm not about to buy a Z-06, personally. It just doesn't have the styling I want in a high-performance car.

This weekend I looked closely at some new Porsche 997S models for sale. (Now, that's what an interior should look like!) Granted, those cars can barely keep up with a C6 coupe, but the exclusivity, the cachet associated with the Porsche badging, the sheer seductiveness of the styling - I'd make the reach and spend 90K there before I'd plunk down the same cash for the new Viper coupe. It's the total package. At some point it's gotta be about more than the bottom line performance numbers, and that's also where the Z-06 kind of loses me. The interior of the new C6 looks like a rental car to me, and the styling is a step backward from the more curvy C5. Yet, they'll sell tens of thousands of these things over the span of the generation. I guess their business model is better than DC's. They'll sell like hotcakes and go like a nickel rocket, but at the end of the day, you're still pulling an obvious GM machine into the garage.

 

[safireviper]

Re: Z06 is a compelling alternative to Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and Ford GT

You Guys Just Don't Get It -- The Viper is not on Mercedes Benz radar. You guys are asking for a foreign company that has NO HERITAGE with the American Muscle Car enthusiast. None. Least of all with the Viper. I absolutely cannot believe how many guys on this post think that Mercedes is going to listen to them. THEY ARE NOT. How they can market a car that takes whole sections from a previous generation of car ( Gen II ) and TACK it on the new SRT and say -- this is WHAT YOU AMERICANS WANT. A squared off car with the rounded roof and tail lights from the previous car. And no horsepower gain.
You guys keep hoping for a Hemi Head V-10 ! Not until the Board of Directors is run by Americans who KNOW ALL ABOUT OUR PASSION. Mercedes comes first. Get it? Dodge is the slow witted American to them.
The Viper's original philosophy was to be King of the Road. In both looks and performance.
Anyone who says they still are has no clue WHAT SO EVER on what's going on at Chrysler.

 

[ACR steve]

Re: Z06 is a compelling alternative to Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and Ford GT

I cant believe 1 car has so many Viper owners up in arms.DC knows exactly how you guys feel and has an upgraded motor just look at the marine program (Hint).Relax so you wont have the fastest car for 1 year or so.Competition is the best thing for us ,it brings everyones game to a higher level.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Re: Z06 is a compelling alternative to Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and Ford GT

We are up in arms. DC does not know exactly how I feel, because an upgraded motor isn't available, NOW. I don't want to lose bragging rights for one second, much less ONE YEAR. Being top dog and always staying WAY ahead of the competition is the best thing for us. It causes the others to shoot for an unattainable goal.

 

[onerareviper]

Re: Z06 is a compelling alternative to Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and Ford GT

I cant believe 1 car has so many Viper owners up in arms.DC knows exactly how you guys feel and has an upgraded motor just look at the marine program (Hint).Relax so you wont have the fastest car for 1 year or so.Competition is the best thing for us ,it brings everyones game to a higher level.

Have any links to information of the 'marine program'?

 

[vipah]

Re: Z06 is a compelling alternative to Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and Ford GT

The Viper marine program = Viper is sunk






Shhhhhhh. You might wake someone at DC.

 

[allanlambo]

Re: Z06 is a compelling alternative to Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and Ford GT

Im sorry, but a Z06 could run circles around a Murcielago, and id never give a second thought to purchasing a Vette over a Lambo. Not even close. No one looking at cars like that, would consider a Vette.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Re: Z06 is a compelling alternative to Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and Ford GT

Im sorry, but a Z06 could run circles around a Murcielago,

Did you mean "could" or "couldn't"?

 

[Viperfreak2]

Re: Z06 is a compelling alternative to Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and Ford GT

It causes the others to shoot for an unattainable goal.

I re-thought that statement. It should have said 'shoot at a moving target'

How fast has our target been moving?

Think about it this way: DC did a complete redesign of the V-10 and we got 50 horsepower. That's 50 hp in TEN FRIGGIN YEARS!

The best a 96 Vette could do was 300. That's a 205 hp gain in ten.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Re: Z06 is a compelling alternative to Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and Ford GT

I thought the ZR-1 had 405 hp. That was at the same time of the Gen I. So they went from 405 to 505 in what 14 years.

I don't get the math either as the Gen II bowed with 450 in 1996. The SRT bowed in with 500 in 2003. That is 50 hp in 6 years not 10.

 

[vipah]

Re: Z06 is a compelling alternative to Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and Ford GT

I thought the ZR-1 had 405 hp. That was at the same time of the Gen I. So they went from 405 to 505 in what 14 years.

I don't get the math either as the Gen II bowed with 450 in 1996. The SRT bowed in with 500 in 2003. That is 50 hp in 6 years not 10.

1996 coupe to 2006 coupe = 10 years

This is irrelevant though. The reality is that Chevy had been talking about this car for about 2 years, and the DC 'intelligence' team should have had all the details, and they should have taken the wind out of their sales with a coupe at 600hp. Rather than assume the best from the competition all we heard was that, "nah, never gonna happen", "wait till it hits, they won't meet those numbers" etc. etc. etc.. (same about the GT).

Face it, these guys are either asleep at the wheel, don't care, or are going to put the Viper to rest.

If my product development group let the competition come out with a product that outperformed ours, at a 20% cheaper price point, heads would roll. But DC is a much kinder group I guess. Probably because so many lemming will let them get away with it and take whatever they produce, evidenced by some of the comments on this board.

Ok, take it personally and flame me now.

 

[Bwright]

Wifey’s Viper,

That’s an excellent point which I had forgotten. It also brings up another point; Most people fall back on the common but poor metric of HP/L but the real engineering test of engine efficiency is how much power you make in comparison to your relative mileage. As such, the higher the overall multiple the more efficient the engine is. I prefer to use the low end of the standardized U.S. EPA numbers. If the upcoming 505 hp Z06 does in fact make those EPA numbers it will be an industry benchmark.

Casey,

It was not so long ago that Dodge could not be considered in the same vein as Ferrari and Lamborghini. However, with the Viper Dodge proved that, from a pure performance standpoint at least, it did deserve a seat at that table. Note that five years ago the thought of a Ford sitting at that table would have been met with open laughter. With the advent of the GT nobody laughs much at that thought any more and that car just made your list of comparables. If you want to go even farther back there was a point when that list only included Ferrari until one day they irritated Ferrucio Lamborghini. Then, as now, places can be earned at that table. Today, the Corvette in the form of the upcoming Z06 presents an engineering, value and performance argument that can only be ignored by the most determinedly ignorant elitists. As with the factory Viper effort in FIA and Le Mans, competitors from the most elite European houses have already learned that the Corvette program is not to be trifled with in major road racing events.

AG98RT10,

The catch with going up on Viper power, as I indicated earlier, is the recertification cost at this point. In addition, the car could possibly (depends on what they do with gearing or the implementation of Displacement on Demand) go up another level on gas guzzler taxes which Dodge is keen to avoid. I don’t think Dodge is intent on killing the Viper platform as it is that psychologically they feel that their hands are tied because they are listening to the shrill minority who do not represent the wishes of the large majority of buyers in this segment (Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, Corvette &amp; Aston Martin). Let me give you two examples. In the book Dodge Viper by Dan Carney, a lead Viper engineer fretted that the use of ABS would be met with scorn by the Viper faithful. This should not be. ABS is a commonsense technology that, as applied in the current SRT-10, has contributed to industry leading braking performance. It should have been there from the beginning. That it merited a worrisome discussion among the engineers is one example of the core problem with the Viper program.

Here’s another; in that same book you will find a section on the development of the ACR. What I found particularly interesting is that the car was offered as a supposedly ******** option package sans A/C and a few other creature comforts. Know the percentage that added the creature comforts back in? Try 100%. People want to have it all in their high performance cars. They want tremendous performance, the latest and even the most cutting edge technology and they want an interior that leaves passengers as stunned as they are by the exterior. Case in point, look at your opinion of the interior of the 997S. I agree 100% as my neighbor, two of my coworkers and a friend of mine all have that car now. The interiors, if you equip them with certain optional packages, are knockouts that stand head and shoulders above the competition. Now consider that even a 997S as you accurately observed can barely keep up with a C6 and would surely get mauled by a Viper and still manages to hold your attention. That’s what I mean when I say that performance and horsepower numbers are not everything. Whether it is ACR owners refusing to go without certain items or Carrera GT owners universally opting to add the optional NAV system in their cars buyers in this segment want it all and deserve to have it all for what they are paying.

As regards the GTS-R Concept, yes, that is the car many, myself included, wish Dodge would build. Dodge has noted in the past that building that car would be expensive and would in fact not be exactly as shown due to DOT requirements. For example, the side mirrors are too small and the car’s ride height, which contributes to the show car’s stance, would never have passed. The front clip was different from the SRT-10 and that would have been very expensive as it would have required a wholly separate set of expensive crash tests. So Dodge had to go with the SRT-10 and the most basic roof as they are short the funds to do much more.

I have said it many times here and I will say it again until they turn the lights out at CAAP. The Viper needs to broaden its appeal such that it can match sales numbers with Ferrari (4,000 units a year). Anything less will keep the car constantly on the cancellation bubble. Look at the technology and feature levels offered by Porsche, Ferrari et al then don’t just meet them, exceed them all while delivering performance that eclipses them at a price they cannot touch. That’s the ticket to continued sales success. Nothing complicated at all it just requires facing the hard truths and then engineering the relatively simple fixes either as options or standard equipment in the business case.

Finally, good point on the success of the Viper in Speed GT. I had forgotten about that , which is inexcusable given that I actually watch it every chance I get. The Viper has indeed done well there and continues to do so.

 

[sween]

Re: Z06 is a compelling alternative to Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and Ford GT

the DC 'intelligence' team should have had all the details, and they should have taken the wind out of their sales with a coupe at 600hp. If my product development group let the competition come out with a product

if the viper does get 600 Hp then chevys going to put the blue devil in to prodution. ive even heard of chevy making a corvette SS which would be even higher HP the the blue devil. so i think dodge should make the HP increase to 550 or to 625. because if we go to (or near) 600 chevy is going to be in the lead.

 

[vipah]

Re: Z06 is a compelling alternative to Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and Ford GT

the DC 'intelligence' team should have had all the details, and they should have taken the wind out of their sales with a coupe at 600hp. If my product development group let the competition come out with a product

if the viper does get 600 Hp then chevys going to put the blue devil in to prodution. ive even heard of chevy making a corvette SS which would be even higher HP the the blue devil. so i think dodge should make the HP increase to 550 or to 625. because if we go to (or near) 600 chevy is going to be in the lead.

I think you are partially right. Corvette has telegraphed their next move. Beating them to the punch is the way to go, and coming out with something badder right after the introduce 'the Blue Devil' should be the next target, but the first is (was) the Z06.

I don't expect any response from DC. Except maybe the off-white Mamba, or the light grey Mamba, etc. etc..

 

[Viperfreak2]

Re: Z06 is a compelling alternative to Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and Ford GT

I thought the ZR-1 had 405 hp. That was at the same time of the Gen I. So they went from 405 to 505 in what 14 years.

I don't get the math either as the Gen II bowed with 450 in 1996. The SRT bowed in with 500 in 2003. That is 50 hp in 6 years not 10.

There was no ZR1 in 96, and with the 06 models having 500hp that's 10 years between a 96 coupe and an 06 coupe.

The 14 years comment caught my eye. Good job! '92 Viper to '06 Viper. So we went from 400 to 500 in what 14 years!

 

[AG98RT10]

I'd like to see DC:

1. Put defeatable traction control/active handling on the SRT10s.

2. Offer an ACR version of the new coupe with Comp Coupe oil pickup, and some other goodies from the CC.

3. Offer both Paxton SC (~700 hp) AND a twin-turbo intercooled (1000hp ++) factory "blue-devil" of their own...

Gotta do (1) before (3), of course!

 

[sween]

if they did that above they would be the king of all the supercars