ZR-1 sales vs ACR/Viper

ASPIRATIONS

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Can someone explain to me why ZR-1s seem to sell at a pretty good price(sticker or near that) and Viper ACRs and regular Vipers have to be almost given away.?
Now this is not a big fact based question; just going by flea-bay and auto-trader..
Could it be the HP#,the fact that the vette has more creature comforts and nannies.? More of a all-around driver,or the fact the Viper has an image as a widow/widower maker,lol
I owned 8 Vettes before I started swapping Vipers,lol but I cant believe how the ZR-1 is hanging in there as far as price goes.:dunno:
What do you all think the effect of the Viper not being made for 1.5-2 years is going to do to its value and future owner enthusiasm.?? Kevin
 

VIPER GTSR 91

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The Vette owners fan base is much larger and your right about the higher hp numbers, creature comforts and dailey driveability of the ZR1 for many owners. Plus the Vette owners like the idea the car is not going out of production.
 

TAXIMAN1

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Kevin, have you driven one?? WOW, is all I can say... amazing car.. and truly a daily driver, if you wanted to.
 
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NI-KA

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I guess what qualifies as a daily driver depends on the individual. I drove mine frequently and regularly. I put over 6,000 miles on it in less than 9 months. I drove it to work frequently and the only deterent to driving it more often to work was the constant dust being kicked up by a neiboring manufacturing facilities gravel parking lot.
 

LaViper

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I don't have a problem with the Corvette's. I like them. The more Vets I see, the more I love my Viper.
 

Vic

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GM wanted to make a sports car with the widest possible appeal, not strictly a track car, as a part of the business model to justify the ZR1. Early on, it was decided not to give it outwardly visible aero cues, that would reduce the fan base by giving the perception of a car primarily for track rats. Wings, splitters, and 80 tread wear sticky tires were ruled out as too *********. Say whay you want, but dedicated track cars do not have the sales that more mild flavor GT's do. Its a business after all, and its the bottom line that counts in the end. Sure, the Viper Nation will scream that they dont want a mild mannered Viper, who does? Not me! But look at how Vipers sit and sit, with no takers. Its a business, people....There's not enough depth to the market, for really ********* sports cars. Unless you have a huge historic and storied name like Ferrari, and can make a business case on only ~7000 cars a year, at astronomical prices. THat model works for them, due to their market position.

I could get a ZR1 if I wanted one. But it doesnt really excite me visually. I didnt say it looks bad, its ok looking, in a Vette sorta way. But it doesnt grab my soul, and say to me "I must have this car". But that is exactly how I felt in 1993, when I first saw the Viper GTS concept taking shape. If it doesnt look good to me, I dont care how fast it is. The Gumpert Apollo does close to 7:12 at the Ring, but I couldnt care less, because it looks like the south end of a horse going north.

Lap times alone dont make a good business model for sales longevity. Its gotta have a broad appeal to be viable.
 
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Kinda hard to keep prices up when there are a few dealers ******* them out for peanuts and dropping your trade in values at the same time. Sure cars are going to sit when that is happening. It's not like you are discounting a 100,000 unit per year Mustang, this is a 2500 per year VIPER for Christ sake! Learn to sell the Viper for what it is, keep the values high and you will be able to keep people interested in the CAR not the cheap price...

Sorry for the rant.
 

BPAG

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I can only think of one year when Viper production possibly reached 2,500 units, and 2009/2010 will barely exceed 1,000 units combined, and not even 1,000 if you just include U.S. retail production.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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The Corvette crowd is looking at the ZR1 as a collectable. They'll get maybe a couple thousand miles on them and then store them in a bubble in the garage for a decade or so.
 

DodgeViper01

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I have always thought this and never understood it. Equally as fast cars and the ACR is even rarer!! How is this possible? Does not make sense but that is just my two cents.
 
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ASPIRATIONS

ASPIRATIONS

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Kinda hard to keep prices up when there are a few dealers ******* them out for peanuts and dropping your trade in values at the same time. Sure cars are going to sit when that is happening. It's not like you are discounting a 100,000 unit per year Mustang, this is a 2500 per year VIPER for Christ sake! Learn to sell the Viper for what it is, keep the values high and you will be able to keep people interested in the CAR not the cheap price...

Sorry for the rant.

Not a rant to me but what you have stated is the reason for my question.....Are you saying that if all Viper dealers stuck close to their MSRP prices for their vehicles(ACRs) that they would sell them.....? I do see the Z06s discounted but not so NEW ZR1s...I do understand your feelings on the discounted prices on the ACRs but it did help me get the 09 I have..On the other side of the coin I cant trade up to get the 2010 because of how much my car has dropped just for taking delivery.:confused:...I think alot has to do with the fact that Woodhouse put more thought into its ordering process and other dealers bought in large volume thinking the end was here for the Viper and guessed wrong.
Some people (like me) were also driven by that rumor but thats my problem...
I know you dont buy NEW cars for an investment ,and never did but Iam just pissed at the fact that the 15-20K more ZR1 is selling at sticker(for the most part) and our ACRs are getting beat up at the sticker war...:mad:
One thing is for sure is that they cant beat us at the race course. Now wheather or not that matters to Viper and vette people is another story.....Kevin
 

Jersey Jeff

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I have vettes and a Viper. I intend to keep the vettes stock and really enjoy my Viper by adding some mods. Been a Vette guy for almost 15 years and the new Viper vert really is a more exclusive fun car to drive. I offered sticker to a dealer for the 09 ZR1 (118K) and he insisted on 128K so went out and got my first Viper and built a detached garage with the left over $. Those nuts wanted 170K when they first were out in 08, I took home an 08 Z06 which is awesome, unless your also drivin a Viper.
 

shooter_t1

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I could get a ZR1 if I wanted one. But it doesnt really excite me visually. I didnt say it looks bad, its ok looking, in a Vette sorta way. But it doesnt grab my soul, and say to me "I must have this car". But that is exactly how I felt in 1993, when I first saw the Viper GTS concept taking shape. If it doesnt look good to me, I dont care how fast it is. The Gumpert Apollo does close to 7:12 at the Ring, but I couldnt care less, because it looks like the south end of a horse going north.

That is one of the best post's I have read on the vette vs Viper subject. Thanks
 

RTTTTed

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The vettes don't hold their value cpmpared to a Viper other than new. The ZR1 may be a different animal than the rest, we'll see.

If I had to get a vette it would be a Z06 only because of the widest vette tires on that car - but I don't and I have a GTS with wider tires than any vette.

Ted
 

v10enomous

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I got my first Viper Thursday... 98 GTS... Friday night I took my first quick ride and ran over to the convenience store and parked the freshly detailed car. It immediately started to draw a crowd. The first comment from one of the guys drooling over the car was.. "Do they still even make Vipers ?"

Every time I pass a magazine rack I think...let me see if there are any good Viper articles and all I see is Vettes on the covers.

The ZR-1 is widely regarded as the Top Dog now by the automotive press and people will pay for that. The Viper as awesome as it is... has sort of dropped off of the radar...
 

Coloviper

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It is simple supply and demand. More Vette owners out there, so more demand for the Vette and the ZR-1 is king in that particular Vette kingdom right now. It commands a premium, even at the ridiculous ZR-1 prices due to simple supply and demand.

Viper ACR, well they all seemed to be pushed out of the factory at the end of the year, when the snow is on the ground for most of the Northern States so demand is way up, on a car that has a smaller demand in general due to less Viper afficiodos out there.

Greater supply and less demand, equals poor selling position for the dealer as what do you expect them to do? They buy these from Dodge so Dodge makes out great, but dealer is left holding the bag, with all the risk. So cut the losses and discount. I don't blame them.

Finally, when someone finally figures out that it IS about looks too, not all about the numbers, then we can move on and sell more. The ACR, as great as it performs, just looks like a GT2 Race car, which for some is great, but for others is NOT what they want to drive on the street. A car with black wheels (biggest mistake in my opinion), big wing and carbon fiber flaps stapled on everwhere, may be great for some, that want that look or to go racing, but for the majority of the people on the street, it lacks class. THAT is why it is not seling. It is just too race car looking for most, despite it's awesome performance.

While I absolutely applaud Dodge for their efforts in making it a track record setting beast, I simply would never own an ACR because I just don't like the way it looks for the street. The race track, is a totally different situation though and if I was a racer, I would be all over it or the ACR or ACRX.

The ACR, it lacks the street classy look of a Ferrari or Lambo or even the ZR-1, who all do this with nice looking non-colored rims, no HUGE add on wings and with an interior of luxury to a degree. There is street comfort in those models I just mentioned that is NOT there with the ACR. It is okay with the ACR because that is not what it was designed for, but that is why it is different and needs to be judged differently becuase it is a totally different crowd. A lot of racers are taking time off from racing now and trying to save money, which is why demand for a racecar is down. Street cars, while demand is down, there are more potential buyers.

When economy kicks and people want to go racing again, those ACRs made now, will be worth a premium while the ZR-1s will drop in price slightly, just as the Ford GTs will drop in price slightly, as newer better modesl come out. Pain now for gain later with the ACR, it is that simple.

Exposure has a lot to do with it as well and the current Viper's have little to none. That does affect things and prices. GEN IIs seem to be holding their own. There is a reason for that. Looks and exposure at the time did a lot for that model. It is down 150 HP from the current model, but to a lot of people on the street, they don't care.

Different buyers for both the ZR-1 versus the ACR, so it is NOT a fair comparison.

Just my take.
 

Art 138

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Can someone explain to me why ZR-1s seem to sell at a pretty good price(sticker or near that) and Viper ACRs and regular Vipers have to be almost given away.?
Now this is not a big fact based question; just going by flea-bay and auto-trader..
Could it be the HP#,the fact that the vette has more creature comforts and nannies.? More of a all-around driver,or the fact the Viper has an image as a widow/widower maker,lol
I owned 8 Vettes before I started swapping Vipers,lol but I cant believe how the ZR-1 is hanging in there as far as price goes.:dunno:
What do you all think the effect of the Viper not being made for 1.5-2 years is going to do to its value and future owner enthusiasm.?? Kevin

I know many potential buyers who have passed up the ACR for the ZR-1 for simple things such as the head-up display,better radio/audio,and interior. The Viper interior never matured with the car (the dodge Caravan radio for example)....to some people the driving experience is self-encompassing.....even little low impact subtle changes such as larger brake calipers (offered in different colors),launch control, could do more to attract customers....
 

Herc

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The Corvette crowd is looking at the ZR1 as a collectable. They'll get maybe a couple thousand miles on them and then store them in a bubble in the garage for a decade or so.



And then sell it for half of what they paid for it, just like every other car out there
except maybe Ferrari.

Herc
 

1BADGTS

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GM wanted to make a sports car with the widest possible appeal, not strictly a track car, as a part of the business model to justify the ZR1. Early on, it was decided not to give it outwardly visible aero cues, that would reduce the fan base by giving the perception of a car primarily for track rats. Wings, splitters, and 80 tread wear sticky tires were ruled out as too *********. Say whay you want, but dedicated track cars do not have the sales that more mild flavor GT's do. Its a business after all, and its the bottom line that counts in the end. Sure, the Viper Nation will scream that they dont want a mild mannered Viper, who does? Not me! But look at how Vipers sit and sit, with no takers. Its a business, people....There's not enough depth to the market, for really ********* sports cars. Unless you have a huge historic and storied name like Ferrari, and can make a business case on only ~7000 cars a year, at astronomical prices. THat model works for them, due to their market position.

I could get a ZR1 if I wanted one. But it doesnt really excite me visually. I didnt say it looks bad, its ok looking, in a Vette sorta way. But it doesnt grab my soul, and say to me "I must have this car". But that is exactly how I felt in 1993, when I first saw the Viper GTS concept taking shape. If it doesnt look good to me, I dont care how fast it is. The Gumpert Apollo does close to 7:12 at the Ring, but I couldnt care less, because it looks like the south end of a horse going north.

Lap times alone dont make a good business model for sales longevity. Its gotta have a broad appeal to be viable.
Exactly too many on this forum forget the fact thats it is a business totally dependent upon SELLING CARS.The Vette appeals to a MUCH BROADER customer base than the Viper. People would rather buy a car thats more comfortable ect to drive and give up some road coarse perf.
 

Twister

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who cares about sticker....I care about long run...

A 2003 SRT10 will have 20-25K miles on average...Sold for around 80K

A 2006 C6Z06 will have 25-30K miles on average...Sold for around 80K

2003 srt10 is worth 38-42K
2006 Z06 is worth 40-44K (guy I know picked up a 2007 for 42K last month)

The Viper is 3 years older and still sells for roughly the same...Thats what I care about...

As far as sales....To the average car enthusiast the 2010 Viper is the same Viper theve seen since 2003...Weather it's 510 or 600 hp....They still see the same car...The new hood is noticable to us but for a non srt10/viper owner it's pretty much the same car...

The ZR1 is somthing totally new..Been missing in action for well over 10 years and to the vette people ( about 30,000 new ones join per year) A Z06 with a window in the hood and some kooler looking rims and a smaller engine with a supercharger seems like a big Deal.....The ones that can afford it and really dont even care for it that much will buy it just to have the top dog and have their lil brother ( z06 owners) and lil sister ( LS3 owners)think they are the man....

Only one viper....So theirs none of us trying to really one up each other and spending more money.....

You get a 2004 vette with 350 HP..Then the 2005 hits with 400 HP....Then the 2006 hits with 505 HP...Then the 2008 base vette gets 436 HP..Then the 2009 gets 638 HP....It just never stops...


With the Viper you eighter have a 450-460 HP Gen 2 or a 510 HP gen3 or a 600 HP gen4..
 

georgethedog

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After owning a C6 Vette all I can say is it makes the Viper look real bad as far as "bang-for-buck". That car was loaded with every creature comfort of a high-end car. Inside the Viper offers a **** radio and that's about it. That is what most people want--creature comforts. Heads-up disply (love it) heated seats, etc., etc.

So, the question people probably see for themelves if they would compare while buying is with the ACR Viper I get a V-10 and interesting looks, while with the ZR-1 I get good looks, equal power, and ALL THE NICE STUFF THE VIPER DOES NOT HAVE. Easy call for many people.

It's a car anyone's wife can drive too. My wife loved the Vette and was a bit upset when I traded for the 2001 Viper. We LOST ALL the comforts. I kinda liked them too and wish Dodge would have added some years ago... come on Dodge.

I planned on keeping the car for a long time and I knew that one day the Vette would be worth $10K and the Viper much more, and that entered into MY equation. Also, I've always been a Mopar boy and I felt strange in the Vette. BUT, there are thousands or even a million or so more GM people who would NEVER drive a Dodge or consider one, and they have been dealing with the expected depreciation forever and don't care. I think that is the main reason. There are just more of them, period. Drive on.... :drive:

When we pay of the house and get another to toy car... it will be a Vette--almost guaranteed. I will drive the Viper and my wife the Vette. Put one kid in one and the other in the other one. I will get the looks, but my wife will get more comforts.
 

johniew398

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Re: ZR-1 sales vs ACR/Viper - I own both

I own a 2008 ACR and 2009 ZR1.

Which one do I like best? The ACR because it is UNIQUE. The ZR1 is not unique in that most people who see it don't realize it's a limited edition Vette but they never mistake the ACR.

I would rather drive the ACR because it what a true muscle car is supposed to be like. What do I drive to work most days? The ZR1 because it is a daily driver.

I have about 5500 miles on the ACR in a little over a year and about 2,600 miles on the ACR in four months.

If I had to give one up which would that be? It would be the ZR1.
 

bushido

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who cares about sticker....I care about long run...

A 2003 SRT10 will have 20-25K miles on average...Sold for around 80K

A 2006 C6Z06 will have 25-30K miles on average...Sold for around 80K

2003 srt10 is worth 38-42K
2006 Z06 is worth 40-44K (guy I know picked up a 2007 for 42K last month)

The Viper is 3 years older and still sells for roughly the same...Thats what I care about...

As far as sales....To the average car enthusiast the 2010 Viper is the same Viper theve seen since 2003...Weather it's 510 or 600 hp....They still see the same car...The new hood is noticable to us but for a non srt10/viper owner it's pretty much the same car...

The ZR1 is somthing totally new..Been missing in action for well over 10 years and to the vette people ( about 30,000 new ones join per year) A Z06 with a window in the hood and some kooler looking rims and a smaller engine with a supercharger seems like a big Deal.....The ones that can afford it and really dont even care for it that much will buy it just to have the top dog and have their lil brother ( z06 owners) and lil sister ( LS3 owners)think they are the man....

Only one viper....So theirs none of us trying to really one up each other and spending more money.....

You get a 2004 vette with 350 HP..Then the 2005 hits with 400 HP....Then the 2006 hits with 505 HP...Then the 2008 base vette gets 436 HP..Then the 2009 gets 638 HP....It just never stops...


With the Viper you eighter have a 450-460 HP Gen 2 or a 510 HP gen3 or a 600 HP gen4..

Thats why I'm glad about my B&W GTS. All the other SRT10 Vipers are just the "run of the mill" cars..
 

georgethedog

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Re: ZR-1 sales vs ACR/Viper - I own both

I own a 2008 ACR and 2009 ZR1.

Which one do I like best? The ACR because it is UNIQUE. The ZR1 is not unique in that most people who see it don't realize it's a limited edition Vette but they never mistake the ACR.

I would rather drive the ACR because it what a true muscle car is supposed to be like. What do I drive to work most days? The ZR1 because it is a daily driver.

I have about 5500 miles on the ACR in a little over a year and about 2,600 miles on the ACR in four months.

If I had to give one up which would that be? It would be the ZR1.

Reaching back to a different thread you may have seen: "Are Viper owner's rich?" My guess is that you are!!! How'd you do it and good for you. :)
 

TrackAire

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My guts telling me that it's just the newness of the car. The 2006 ZO6 also sold for a premium with they first came out...no discounts on the first years models.

I know the Vette market is bigger, but I'm guessing that you'll see discounting by the fall of this year.

I was getting breakfast goodies at the supermarket this morning...picked up an issue of Car & Driver with their "Lightning Lap" of the fastest cars around Virginia Int'l Raceway. The ZR1 walked away being the fast car, 2:51.8

The next fastest full size car was the Murcielago at 2:53.9

The article states that the ZR1 was faster than they expected. Only two cars have gone faster, the Mosler and the Dodge Viper SRT10 ACR in 2008:)

The ZR1 has gotten a tremendous amount of positve press for its performance, top speed winner, Lighting Lap, etc. This helps with demand, but unless GM does something to boost up the performance one more time I see the demand going down (and discounting to start).

The Corvette Grand Sport was to me the obvious winner, less than half the cost of the ZR1 and the 3rd fastest behind the ZR1 and Lambo, beating out the Audi R8 V10, Porsche 911 Carrera S, etc. They also tested the Ariel Atom and KTM Cross Bow, but I did not include this in the mix...I only see these as track weapons.

Cheers,
George
 

NI-KA

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Thay was a good article. Also of note was the fact the the BMW M3 beat the Porsche 911. Not by much but the M3 is more comfortable than the 911.

Personally, I love the looks of the ACR and as far as all the daily driver stuff most of that you can do your self. A new Radio/NAV/DVD player is easy. If you want more leather thats possible if you have a large enough wallet and the desire (look at some of the threads on this site). If you want heated seats that can be done aftermarket to. Heads-up display is a problem. Heck you can even get aftermarket traction control.

The only problem with the Viper (for me) is I am better off being on time for work when I drive it and leaving early is suspect. Neither is ever a problem since I ususally work 10 hour or longer days but I am aware of peoples sensitivities. No one has ever said anything but I am conscious of it. Lets face it, if I drive my ****** no one knows who drives that but everyone knows who drives the Viper.
 

RTTTTed

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so the ZR1 is 3rd, but although the ACR wasn't there it went faster as did the Mosler?

""The article states that the ZR1 was faster than they expected. Only two cars have gone faster, the Mosler and the Dodge Viper SRT10 ACR in 2008""

Wouldn't that make the ZR1 5th? Does that mean the ACR was the fastest?

Ted
 

RTTTTed

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As soon as people say fastest and then later say, "except the ACR and Mosler" I wonder if the confusion is an attempt to advertise by confusion or if it's a Politician talking.

ZR1 is fastest, except ACR, means - ACR is fastest ... right?
 

TrackAire

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I don't have the 2008 article in front of me, but from what I remember it was the Mosler 1st and Viper 2nd (or other way around)...and yes, both are faster than the ZR1 around VIR.

But, my point is there has been no widespread press about the Viper in the last 2 years worth a hoot. With magazine lead times, that 2008 article may have been done in the fall of 2007. Thats like 3 years ago. It's all been about the ZO6, ZR1, etc. For somebody that wants a fast car, all they've seen is the ZR1 knock off top dogs like Porsche, Ferrari and Mercedes. I think that last article I saw in a national publication (like C&D, MotorTrend, etc) was the ACR going around Laguna Seca in the best handling shoot out with Randy Probst driving it. That had to be at least 2 years ago.

Just think how many guys buy Vettes just because the mags tell them its the fastest, best performance, best dollar value, etc.

In reality trying to compare a Vette vs Viper is like comparing a harness racing buggy to a chariot. They both got horses, they both got wheels, they both got a driver but two very different driving attitudes.

Cheers,
George
 
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