'01 GTS O2 Wideband advice

[Bird325]

I'm working on getting a wideband installed on my NA car so that I can get it 'tuned to perfection'. I already have the SCT and Pro Racer software and Dan at Viper Specialty is going to help me out with some 'remote' tuning. I'd like some help on getting the right setup without breaking the bank in the process.

I'm going to either install the O2 (I'm only doing one bank) in the collector or under the side sills, foward of the RT cats depending on the info that our knowledgeble members pass on to me. I can either only install the O2 for tuning or put it in and leave it in. I don't intend to add a blower or TT, just going to keep it close to stock, but better tuned. Due to this, I don't see any real advantage to having an AF gauge in the cockpit.

In my research, it seems that the wideband needs its own controller to run it, like the Innovate LC-1. There are a lot of options out there and I just don't have enough knowledge yet to know what to buy for my application. I know that the wideband will have to be read by something in order to have the AF ratios to use with the dyno runs for getting the right tune set up.

Should I do a permanent mount (probably in the side sill) or something that can be removed after tuning (probably in the collector)? What wideband should I use? ... and does it require optional cables/connectors so that it can be read by the computer that is doing the dyno runs?

I know that these are beginner's questions and I would appreciate some of our more experienced member's input. Thanks in advance,
Mike

 

[Jack B]

I'm working on getting a wideband installed on my NA car so that I can get it 'tuned to perfection'. I already have the SCT and Pro Racer software and Dan at Viper Specialty is going to help me out with some 'remote' tuning. I'd like some help on getting the right setup without breaking the bank in the process.

I'm going to either install the O2 (I'm only doing one bank) in the collector or under the side sills, foward of the RT cats depending on the info that our knowledgeble members pass on to me. I can either only install the O2 for tuning or put it in and leave it in. I don't intend to add a blower or TT, just going to keep it close to stock, but better tuned. Due to this, I don't see any real advantage to having an AF gauge in the cockpit.

In my research, it seems that the wideband needs its own controller to run it, like the Innovate LC-1. There are a lot of options out there and I just don't have enough knowledge yet to know what to buy for my application. I know that the wideband will have to be read by something in order to have the AF ratios to use with the dyno runs for getting the right tune set up.

Should I do a permanent mount (probably in the side sill) or something that can be removed after tuning (probably in the collector)? What wideband should I use? ... and does it require optional cables/connectors so that it can be read by the computer that is doing the dyno runs?

I know that these are beginner's questions and I would appreciate some of our more experienced member's input. Thanks in advance,
Mike

LC!
DL32

The easiest place to mount the **** is in the transition pipe at the high point in the rear of the car. On my Ballenger's that short transition pipe is easy to remove. You could also mount it near the front oem ****. I use the Innovate gauge to turn on the logger.

You need to log a minimum of:

A/F
RPM
Throttle position
Acceleration (from DL32)

You can now easily road tune in 2nd or 3rd gear. You can virtually use the Table function in Logworks (Innovate) to modify the SCT PE tables.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Sounds like you and I are moving in near the same direction Mike. My 97 has been stock but I'm doing some N/A upgrades this year and I want the tune to be perfect. I'm planning on welding bungs on both collectors if there is available space and a permanent mount for the data controller. But I'm still trying to figure it all out.

 

[dave6666]

You want it as close to the collector as possible. I'm surprised Dan didn't tell you that. That's where I installed my sensors.

Also, when doing your research on sensors for the goal of tuned to perfection, you might want to take a moment and read about the people that while tuning to perfection, blew it to bits. I'll take almost perfect any day if that excludes the blown to bits option.

 

[Bird325]

Yeah, I've read some horror stories of that happening. I'll be satisfied with NEAR perfect and keep that in mind. Are you leaving your widebands in and operating all the time or just putting them on when you're going to do some checking/tuning?

 

[speedracervr4]

I would just leave it in to monitor it while driving it normally. One of my 02 sensors went bad and I knew right away because my A/F gauge was a lot richer than normal at certain RPMS.

 

[ViperTony]

I welded the WBO O2 bungs in the collector turnout accessible via the side sill (off). I routed the LC-1 wiring to the cockpit. (This is essential DY's WBO wiring in the Illustrated Section). I used to have the LC-1 output go into my Vec3 for logging. I now have SCT. When I need to log, I connect the LC-1 to my laptop and use PCMScan to log both OBD and WBO readings from the LC-1. You can setup the LC-1 as a PID in PCMScan. I only log when making changes so it's infrequent. I think the onboard data logger would be a better option for you track/strip rats.

http://forums.viperclub.org/illustrated-upgrades/598748-wiring-wideband-o2-vec-guide-photos.html

 

[Bird325]

Thanks for the input Guys. I just went ahead and ordered Innovate's OT-2 (wifi OBD II transmitter) along with their LC-1 wideband. I'm going to mount up the wideband just downstream of the collector and leave it in place. I'll mount the OT-2 under the dash or in the console and probably only plug it into the OBD port when I'm wanting to get some readings.

The data logging will be either on my iPhone or laptop using Logworks (available for free for a smart phone or laptop).

I'll let everyone know how it turns out in a few weeks.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I'll let everyone know how it turns out in a few weeks.

Greatly appreciated.

 

[Jack B]

Thanks for the input Guys. I just went ahead and ordered Innovate's OT-2 (wifi OBD II transmitter) along with their LC-1 wideband. I'm going to mount up the wideband just downstream of the collector and leave it in place. I'll mount the OT-2 under the dash or in the console and probably only plug it into the OBD port when I'm wanting to get some readings.

The data logging will be either on my iPhone or laptop using Logworks (available for free for a smart phone or laptop).

I'll let everyone know how it turns out in a few weeks.

I had to send back two of the OT2's. They would not communicate on a regular basis with the pcm in my 97.

 

[Jack B]

Thanks for the input Guys. I just went ahead and ordered Innovate's OT-2 (wifi OBD II transmitter) along with their LC-1 wideband. I'm going to mount up the wideband just downstream of the collector and leave it in place. I'll mount the OT-2 under the dash or in the console and probably only plug it into the OBD port when I'm wanting to get some readings.

The data logging will be either on my iPhone or laptop using Logworks (available for free for a smart phone or laptop).

I'll let everyone know how it turns out in a few weeks.

How are you going to log, unless something has changed you still need the lm2 or dl32

 

[Bird325]

First off, did you ever end up with an OT-2 that would work consistently? Second, in answer to your question, I'm planning on logging to my iPhone and sending it to my PC. If that won't work, I'll log (via bluetooth) directly to a laptop and then use Logworks to chart it all.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the ability of the OT-2 to send the OBDII info with the WBO plugged into it. Worst case, I'll buy or borrow a logger, but I don't think I'm going to have to do that.

I'm still going to use the LC-1 to feed AF data to the computer at the dyno, so all is not lost even if I misunderstood the capability of the OT-2.

 

[Jack B]

First off, did you ever end up with an OT-2 that would work consistently? Second, in answer to your question, I'm planning on logging to my iPhone and sending it to my PC. If that won't work, I'll log (via bluetooth) directly to a laptop and then use Logworks to chart it all.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the ability of the OT-2 to send the OBDII info with the WBO plugged into it. Worst case, I'll buy or borrow a logger, but I don't think I'm going to have to do that.

I'm still going to use the LC-1 to feed AF data to the computer at the dyno, so all is not lost even if I misunderstood the capability of the OT-2.

Mike:

1. I never could get the OT working. They had a known issue early on, maybe it is fixed. They did refund the monies.

2. The LM or DL gives you the ability to log without a laptop, logs goes direct to a SD card. A laptop is sort of tough to use during an autocross or track event. Either the LM or DL date and time stamp the file for each run. The DL also has an accelerometer so that you can log tuning changes alongside acceleration - it is a real world road dyno.

One of the main reasons I went to the DL32 was that the serial output of the LC was hard to consistently connect to the laptop. I think most serial to usb connections ****. The SD card solves the connection issues.

If you are going to tune on the dyno it helps to have throttle input on the log, you can easily bring that into both devices. I do not know the year of your car, but, most of the viper pcm's output the OBD data so slowly, it sort of makes the fast changing data less than useful even if the OT worked.

If I can help you with the Innovate products send me a pm, I have set up multiple Innovate systems. I am just installing a new LM and LC system on my jet ski. I am bring in rpm and boost in addition to the a/f.

 

[Bird325]

Thanks for the input and offer. Guess I'll just stumble along and with your help, find my way to a happy solution. If it means getting the logger, so be it. Should get the OT2 today. I'll see if it works and post up the outcome.

 

[dave6666]

Thanks for the input and offer. Guess I'll just stumble along and with your help, find my way to a happy solution. If it means getting the logger, so be it. Should get the OT2 today. I'll see if it works and post up the outcome.

Did you ever get this installed Mike?

 

[WDW MKR]

Can I link to a thread on another forum if it isn't a direct advertisement? There was a great technical discussion on various consumer-grade wideband systems on Modular Fords a few years back that I kept as reference. Summary was that the NGK AFX system with the upgraded NTK sensor combined the best electronics with the most accurate (consumer) sensor. Only downfall is the display/control box, which you can hide away if you don't want to see the gauge. I logged mine straight to my Raptor and laptop with no issues over 3-4yrs.

I ran an LM-1 back in the day and always ran into bugs. A lot of guys now run the LC1 with good results, but it still uses the supposedly less accurate/robust Bosch sensor that most other systems use. Guess it depends on your preference.

 

[Bird325]

Dave, It's been installed for a while and working OK. My son came over and helped me package up all the cables and finished up the REALLY CLEAN install. I've had the car tuned and dyno'd many times since, but nobody wants to use the Wide Band. They all want to use the 'up the pipe' version that their equipment (or techs) are calibrated to.

Some day soon I'll get back into the idea of doing some logging and tweaking on my own, but for now, I'm OK with just having the capability through a WiFi in my car and playing with it when I can.

 

[dave6666]

Can I link to a thread on another forum if it isn't a direct advertisement? There was a great technical discussion on various consumer-grade wideband systems on Modular Fords a few years back that I kept as reference. Summary was that the NGK AFX system with the upgraded NTK sensor combined the best electronics with the most accurate (consumer) sensor. Only downfall is the display/control box, which you can hide away if you don't want to see the gauge. I logged mine straight to my Raptor and laptop with no issues over 3-4yrs.

I ran an LM-1 back in the day and always ran into bugs. A lot of guys now run the LC1 with good results, but it still uses the supposedly less accurate/robust Bosch sensor that most other systems use. Guess it depends on your preference.

I also have recently heard the NGK AFX walks all over the other brands. I'm considering doing my own tuning on my Roe and want to use a wideband.

 

[1.8t]

I used the NGK AFX on my old vette and that thing worked like a charm. Right now I am using the AEM on the Viper because that is one of the widebands that ScanXL supports. In that comparison test, the other widebands always read some increment leaner than what the actual a/f was. All this means is you will be richer than you think once tuned, so at least you are errored on the side of caution.

 

[ViperTony]

I've had the LC-1 installed on my Viper since 2008, no issues with it. No idea if it's dead-on-balls accurate or slightly off. Works well with ScanXL. http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/654520-Data-Logging-LTFT-Interpretation?highlight=tuning

 

[WDW MKR]

I used the NGK AFX on my old vette and that thing worked like a charm. Right now I am using the AEM on the Viper because that is one of the widebands that ScanXL supports. In that comparison test, the other widebands always read some increment leaner than what the actual a/f was. All this means is you will be richer than you think once tuned, so at least you are errored on the side of caution.

All analog inputs ran to datalogging software will likely have some grounding offset. Perhaps the ScanXL is pre-programmed with an offset closest to certain brands? You can test for offset and adjust the analog conversion formula to accomodate.

 

[dave6666]

OK. Time for my 2 critical questions sans my rookiness on the subject of logging and tuning.

Q1 - Is the NXG AFX compatible with the SCT and Pro Racer software setup?

Q2 - How does everything connect together when logging, from a wiring schematic standpoint? Like, in my feeble mind, you have a laptop, and it would need to connect to both the OBD port for the factory sensors like IAT TPS MAP etc, and then you'd need the connection from the wideband. So is that a correct guess? A cable from the OBD and a cable from the wideband = 2 cables to laptop and shazam I'm now a genius?

 

[WDW MKR]

A1 - the wideband is really independent of the tuning software for these cars. Most other SCT tuners can datalog straight through the handheld via Liveware, but not DCX.

A2 - depending on the datalogging software/hardware you are using, you will generally run the wideband analog output into the datalogger, which is then routed to the laptop or stored internally for later viewing.

 

[dave6666]

OK. I think I may have gotten some learning from those answers.

So the wideband / logging etc simply generates and logs data. You then take that information and apply it to your tune. Those items like you said are not really connected to each other. Got it me thinks.

But on the laptop business... What is the "datalogger?" Is that not the laptop? Where does the OBD connect to? The datalogger? Or laptop? And if you are logging the wideband and also logging from the OBD, are those separate things? Like you can log one or the other but not both?

Really don't care what I need or what it costs. Just want to make sure I buy a good setup that is robust, and not have to go back later and upgrade stuff because I had no idea what I am / was doing.

 

[speedracervr4]

The laptop is used as the datalogger with the software installed. You'll have to buy a cord that goes from OBD to USB I've been looking at doing the same thing and found a pretty good website that sells packages. http://www.palmerperformance.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=57

 

[ViperTony]

In this thread, http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/654520-Data-Logging-LTFT-Interpretation?highlight=tuning, is a screen shot of the data logger software, ScanXL from Palmer. ScanXL has built-in support for the Innovate Wideband but I don't see NGK in the list of options/settings. The Innovate Wideband LC-1 has a serial connector but I use a serial -> USB connector and it hooks up to a USB port on my laptop. The Innovate Software (I assume NGK has something similar) will configure your laptop to use the wideband. Once installed and configured, I can use the Innovate software to calibrate the wideband if needed.

ScanXL uses an OBDII adapter with a USB connector to the laptop. ScanXL does the datalogging of the PCM and also captures the output from the LC-1. In ScanXL, I can create different maps based on those outputs but generally creates maps that the tuner's want to see.

I don't know if the ProRacer package has any data logging features and/or if it can accept wideband input. My understanding is that it can't but those that actually tune with it can chime in.

 

[WDW MKR]

As mentioned above, there are often (2) different options with a lot of these widebands: log the wideband directly to the laptop as a standalone data point, or use a software/hardware interface like the ScanXL (what I'll be using for this car) to grab the wideband data along with everything from the OBDII port and log it all to the laptop. I used to log my LM-1 as a standalone device... this isn't very helpful when looking at a graph of A/F ratio versus time, as you're guessing on the relations to RPM and load. Running the wideband output through a dedicated datalogger can tie all of the data points together and give your a full picture of A/F ratio in relation to RPM, load, boost, etc.

OBDII is just the type of computer strategy, from which we gather data using the port under the driver side dash. You have to have hardware/software to grab and interpret this data, which is where something like the ScanXL comes into play. The ScanXL (i.e. datalogger) pulls data from the OBDII port and translates it to the laptop where it is organized and graphed with the associated software.

 

[WDW MKR]

I don't know if the ProRacer package has any data logging features and/or if it can accept wideband input. My understanding is that it can't but those that actually tune with it can chime in.

ProRacer is simply a tuning software... you load, modify, and save tunes before loading them onto a XCal2 handheld for transfer to the vehicle. You do not log any data with ProRacer. Instead, you gather data with any number of datalogging methods and use that information to make tuning changes within ProRacer.

 

[dave6666]

Just talk Paul at RSI and he's saying the Innovate OT-2 is the way to go. Anybody have any experience with it? It's wireless to your laptop or iPhone.

 

[Tagoo]

I have also been looking into running wideband sensors for data logging. A couple of years ago, Chris at DC Automotive suggested that I avoid using the OBDII data port as part of my logging solution. He said that the data bus was too slow and would not provide the resolution needed for accurate logging/adjustments. I've seen threads confirming that how the data bus is much faster on the GenIII and GenIV cars.

If what Chris said was true, it would seem the ScanXL is not the way to go. Maybe Chris was wrong, or maybe I misunderstood. Can any expert confirm that the GenII OBDII port will provide logging info with enough resolution to be effective?