Well said Bob.........
Actually it was a silly analogy comparing a first year first Gen V 001 VIN raffle car to a run of the mill 09 (not even a 10) ACR.
And when it's time to sell your car start by asking a Barrett Jackson price. That'll move it.
09 ACR sold for 112,00.00 on Barrett-Jackson
- Thread starter viperman4125
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Actually it was a silly analogy comparing a first year first Gen V 001 VIN raffle car to a run of the mill 09 (not even a 10) ACR.
And when it's time to sell your car start by asking a Barrett Jackson price. That'll move it.
Chelseasnake
Enthusiast
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viper john is still sore on the hit he took of his car.
v10enomous
Enthusiast
Aren't the center band ACR's more desirable than dual striped ?
Nope, just what I expected.
I live in the real world. A used 09 ACR with stripes is a low to mid 70's car now. If your lucky.
Go ask Bernie what he'll give you on a trade.
Don't get butt hurt Bruce.
01sapphirebob
Enthusiast
For the sake of discussion '09s are limited production since that was when Chrysler went into bankruptcy so not as many were built. Also...this Ian the only VIN 001 GEN V on the planet.
That's what everyone says anyways.
agentf1
Enthusiast
Finally somebody with a brain on this board. Why is everybody so quick to depreciate these cars when they have historically held their value better than most sports cars on the market and are very special and rare cars. Instead we should be embracing these prices.
We do not own Corvettes and they do not make 37,000 a year of them. Look at some of these one year colors with production numbers under a hundred, some of the later cars have production numbers in the single digits.
My thoughts. Everyone is not quick to depreciate these cars. There are so many Vipers out there right now for 25% less than what this one sold for. Everyone with a brain is just saying $123k is not the market for Gen IV ACRs (yet)There is a black red strip 2008 ACR on ebay right now with 200 miles for 89k. Frank has been trying to sell his 08 ACR ********* with like 5 miles on it for the same range for like 5 years now. There is a dealer with a brand new 08 ACR still on the lot which can be had for 88k. They had a 2nd that sold for 88k just a month ago. They had several last year and had a very hard time giving them away in the 83-88k range. Very special and very rare cars indeed. However the market is not 123,000 for a used 2009 Viper yet.
commandomatt
Enthusiast
Auctions are tough. Easy to get caught up in a bidding war.
Someone may have seen that ACR rolling up and he just had to have it. That color under the lights just pops. Doesn't mean he had done any research to see what these actually sell for. These cars are rare so maybe the first time he actually has seen one in person. Then others are bidding against him so you may then think....'well if others keep bidding this high....the car has to be worth it'.
I bet there is a fair amount of buyers remorse happening after a fast paced auction like BJ
Then again, he may feel like he did great....got what he wanted, at a price he could afford.
Pricey...sure. But for us Viper owners, its like when your neighbors house sells for 25% over market.....you just have to love it.
Matt
Someone may have seen that ACR rolling up and he just had to have it. That color under the lights just pops. Doesn't mean he had done any research to see what these actually sell for. These cars are rare so maybe the first time he actually has seen one in person. Then others are bidding against him so you may then think....'well if others keep bidding this high....the car has to be worth it'.
I bet there is a fair amount of buyers remorse happening after a fast paced auction like BJ
Then again, he may feel like he did great....got what he wanted, at a price he could afford.
Pricey...sure. But for us Viper owners, its like when your neighbors house sells for 25% over market.....you just have to love it.
Matt
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viperman4125
Enthusiast
He's right I did it!
Dakota Viper Collector
Enthusiast
I was at Barrett-Jackson for the last couple days and was very surprised at the larger than normal crowds. I should have sold my whole collection IF
I knew I could get BIG Bucks like I have seen at this years auction.
I knew I could get BIG Bucks like I have seen at this years auction.
Rizzo
Enthusiast
Funny that the seller is on here telling us what he got for the car but im sure once the buyer discovers he could have bought a brand new one for almost 40g less he wont be sharing his story with the world. Lol. And if you think everything that happens at BJ is on the up and up i have some really nice swamp land in Florida thats worth a mint. Lol...
It is no secret, Barrett Jackson get a premium out the cars that they sell in Phoenix. I have watched the Vipers consistently bring at least 20% more than normal at this sale. When I contacted them to sell my ACR, the first question they asked me is what I thought it would sell for. I told them I thought $80k was a fair price. They told me to expect between $60k and $100k. Just like any other "No Reserve" auction, it was a gamble. I was able to negotiate a Friday afternoon time slot, and with a little luck, Speed Channel also gave it some extra coverage that made some TV commercials and drew extra attention to the car. The gentleman who bought the car only noticed it outside in the staging lanes and looked at for maybe 5 minutes. As he walked away from viewing the car, I overheard him tell his buddy, " I have to have this car". As everyone knows, it takes two people to drive the price up at an auction. With that being said, the other bidder is still out there and willing to pay $110k +10% for another car just like it. Instead of ******** about how foolish people are with their money, take advantage of the situation and get your listed at the next sale. Maybe yours will sell for even more!
robiferretti
Enthusiast
everyone here has an interest in believing the cars are going to go up in value and that there is a band of drunk rich people willing to over spend on cars. There isn't, I am in the car industry and buy 20-25 exotic cars every year I can tell you there is an ass for every seat but if things sound too good to be true they probably are. Comparing the sale of a car in a charity auction(tax write off), or the first car of a specific model (Gen V vin 001) to these cars going through BJ is silly. Its nice to imagine there is a magical market out there for cars we own, same reason we all think our houses have magic buyers who will pay what we wish they were worth.
I worked the Rand Workman auction in NYC one year and it was all wholesalers brought in to bid up the cars to make the auction look good, only 7 cars actually sold. Most cars that roll through are likely out of wholesalers inventories so its no harm no foul if they roll across the blocks with some fake bids and end back up fora sale at the dealer a week later.
While I am at it.... Santa claus doesn't exist either!
I worked the Rand Workman auction in NYC one year and it was all wholesalers brought in to bid up the cars to make the auction look good, only 7 cars actually sold. Most cars that roll through are likely out of wholesalers inventories so its no harm no foul if they roll across the blocks with some fake bids and end back up fora sale at the dealer a week later.
While I am at it.... Santa claus doesn't exist either!
viper GTS-R
Enthusiast
HobokenViper
Enthusiast
First off, thanks for the compliment Agentf1.
So these are my honest thoughts, and anyone here is obviously free to disagree with anything I say. The market for what a car is worth is whatever price the seller and buyer agree that it is worth in the end when a sale is consummated. By that definition, this is what the market price for that particular car was worth at that particular day in that location. Is part of it due to luck, or something else that may happen at Barrett Jackson auctions? Possibly, but someone still agreed on that being the fair price of the car regardless. Quite possibly luck is most to blame as the right few people were in the room at the right day/time, and perhaps they were not as educated of Viper buyers as we all seem to expect that they should or would be, and therefore the price was inflated over what they would have been able to possibly find for a comparable car elsewhere.
I can directly compare this to my line of work. I am a commercial real estate broker in Manhattan and negotiate deals for a living, and have represented over 3 million square feet of commercial office space in New York City in the past year, or just about 1% of all the commercial office space in the entire city. In that regard I have seen and done some deals that range from very expensive and what some might consider over market, and the same on the other end of the spectrum. When representing the Landlord or Seller, you always try to get top dollar, and in many of the cases where I was successful in doing an "above market deal" it was because I was smarter than or more knowledgable than the broker and their client on the other side, was able to make and present a very good case and argument for why the space was worth more, or there were situational factors involved which are too numerous to list here that I will simply describe those as luck. The same was true on the flip side when I represent office tenants looking to lease space or a Buyer where I was able to negotiate a really great "below market deal" for them. No lying or false information ever contributed to these deals happening, but simply rather a combination of intelligence, creativity, and pure dumb luck. I used similar tactics when buying my Gen IV Viper earlier in 2012 as I felt very lucky that I not only found the exact rare color combo that I wanted, but also the only one in the country like it for sale. In the end, through a very risky 4 month negotiating process where I would go silent for a week or two at a time, I ultimately ended up buying the car for almost $15k under the seller's original asking price. This was what most of you would probably consider a below market price at the time for this 1 of 9 Viper with probably the lowest mileage of any of them, but it was the market for that car at that time and place for whatever reasons that came into play there. if another buyer had appeared during that time offering more money, then that would have been the market price, but for now I feel that I really got a great deal and am holding onto it for fun and as an investment for down the road.
My advice to all of us Viper owners is this. Although we all probably agree that the sale of this ACR Viper seems to be above market since others like it can't seem to move at far lower prices, we should embrace it and realize that;
A. We should consider looking to Barrett Jackson to sell our Vipers in the future, or
B. If we are concerned about our resale value, we should hold onto out Vipers and keep them pristine as they will all likely be worth much more as the years get on, especially as more and more people unfortunately continue to wreck their Vipers and make them increasingly rare, or
C. Embrace this sale and hold our asking prices a bit higher and firmer across the board as we all are currently defining the market price for Vipers whenever we put one onto the market. Once people start dropping prices on their cars too fast or too much, it dilutes the market and cheapens the Viper brand and actually creates a cheaper market for the cars. Remember, the more Vipers that are on the market of a particular year, type, and color, the lower the prices will be due to more competition and the laws of supply and demand. There are currently not many high quality and low mileage Gen II GTS Vipers for sale, so those are really holding their value and are even going back up in value. There are a lot of RT10's and a lot of GEN III Vipers flooding the market so those are depreciating quicker. There is a very limited amount of Gen IV Vipers for sale, and in many cases there are even only one of or a couple of a particular color for sale in the whole country, so they should hold their value even better if that persists. Anyone wanting a Ford GT and is familiar with that market should know that those cars have only gone up in value since they hit the market, partially due to the low production numbers and high percentage of wrecked cars just like the Viper, but also because there are so few that are ever on the market at the same time. It is also arguably an even more exotic car than the Viper, even if by only a bit.
And as for all the conspiracy theories, I think that's all a bunch of BS. Nobody is out to screw us over or over inflate or dilute the brand. We do that to ourselves. It's all supply and demand, which also explains why the first Corvette sold for over $1 million at BJ, because there are a LOT more Corvette guys out there who are willing to pay big money to have one a very special Corvette that is sure to be worth a lot one day, be it sentimental or actual $ value. And that's my 2 sense............
So these are my honest thoughts, and anyone here is obviously free to disagree with anything I say. The market for what a car is worth is whatever price the seller and buyer agree that it is worth in the end when a sale is consummated. By that definition, this is what the market price for that particular car was worth at that particular day in that location. Is part of it due to luck, or something else that may happen at Barrett Jackson auctions? Possibly, but someone still agreed on that being the fair price of the car regardless. Quite possibly luck is most to blame as the right few people were in the room at the right day/time, and perhaps they were not as educated of Viper buyers as we all seem to expect that they should or would be, and therefore the price was inflated over what they would have been able to possibly find for a comparable car elsewhere.
I can directly compare this to my line of work. I am a commercial real estate broker in Manhattan and negotiate deals for a living, and have represented over 3 million square feet of commercial office space in New York City in the past year, or just about 1% of all the commercial office space in the entire city. In that regard I have seen and done some deals that range from very expensive and what some might consider over market, and the same on the other end of the spectrum. When representing the Landlord or Seller, you always try to get top dollar, and in many of the cases where I was successful in doing an "above market deal" it was because I was smarter than or more knowledgable than the broker and their client on the other side, was able to make and present a very good case and argument for why the space was worth more, or there were situational factors involved which are too numerous to list here that I will simply describe those as luck. The same was true on the flip side when I represent office tenants looking to lease space or a Buyer where I was able to negotiate a really great "below market deal" for them. No lying or false information ever contributed to these deals happening, but simply rather a combination of intelligence, creativity, and pure dumb luck. I used similar tactics when buying my Gen IV Viper earlier in 2012 as I felt very lucky that I not only found the exact rare color combo that I wanted, but also the only one in the country like it for sale. In the end, through a very risky 4 month negotiating process where I would go silent for a week or two at a time, I ultimately ended up buying the car for almost $15k under the seller's original asking price. This was what most of you would probably consider a below market price at the time for this 1 of 9 Viper with probably the lowest mileage of any of them, but it was the market for that car at that time and place for whatever reasons that came into play there. if another buyer had appeared during that time offering more money, then that would have been the market price, but for now I feel that I really got a great deal and am holding onto it for fun and as an investment for down the road.
My advice to all of us Viper owners is this. Although we all probably agree that the sale of this ACR Viper seems to be above market since others like it can't seem to move at far lower prices, we should embrace it and realize that;
A. We should consider looking to Barrett Jackson to sell our Vipers in the future, or
B. If we are concerned about our resale value, we should hold onto out Vipers and keep them pristine as they will all likely be worth much more as the years get on, especially as more and more people unfortunately continue to wreck their Vipers and make them increasingly rare, or
C. Embrace this sale and hold our asking prices a bit higher and firmer across the board as we all are currently defining the market price for Vipers whenever we put one onto the market. Once people start dropping prices on their cars too fast or too much, it dilutes the market and cheapens the Viper brand and actually creates a cheaper market for the cars. Remember, the more Vipers that are on the market of a particular year, type, and color, the lower the prices will be due to more competition and the laws of supply and demand. There are currently not many high quality and low mileage Gen II GTS Vipers for sale, so those are really holding their value and are even going back up in value. There are a lot of RT10's and a lot of GEN III Vipers flooding the market so those are depreciating quicker. There is a very limited amount of Gen IV Vipers for sale, and in many cases there are even only one of or a couple of a particular color for sale in the whole country, so they should hold their value even better if that persists. Anyone wanting a Ford GT and is familiar with that market should know that those cars have only gone up in value since they hit the market, partially due to the low production numbers and high percentage of wrecked cars just like the Viper, but also because there are so few that are ever on the market at the same time. It is also arguably an even more exotic car than the Viper, even if by only a bit.
And as for all the conspiracy theories, I think that's all a bunch of BS. Nobody is out to screw us over or over inflate or dilute the brand. We do that to ourselves. It's all supply and demand, which also explains why the first Corvette sold for over $1 million at BJ, because there are a LOT more Corvette guys out there who are willing to pay big money to have one a very special Corvette that is sure to be worth a lot one day, be it sentimental or actual $ value. And that's my 2 sense............
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This is not surprising when you get two loaded people who want it. Chump change for them probably.
v10enomous
Enthusiast
Words of wisdom from Rick Harrison... The least collectible items are often the items that are made to be collectible.
commandomatt
Enthusiast
Does our Vipers fall into this category ?
I don't know of any other brand/model that has more 'special edition', 'first edition', 'final edition', 'Ltd edition', edition this and edition that.
It certainly appears that there are many Vipers that doesn't have that 'tag' that are far more rare and made in much smaller numbers.
...then again, people are sheep and will often collect what they are told is the collectible version.
Matt
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HobokenViper
Enthusiast
Couldn't agree with you more. The special collector edition white/blue Viper made in 2006 had 100 examples made and I see them holding their value, but yet the dumb part about that is that most other colors are far more rare than that. My color combo is 1 of 9 (10 if you count another one made in 2010) and is arguably much more rare and collectible than this "special limited special edition" model. Again, it's all how much you know and how you are able to spin it to make a car sound more rare than it really is. Perception can be everything when selling cars, or anything else for that matter, and it gives Dodge or SRT ways to push sales of "rare" versions of their cars and sell more cars. When selling a used Viper, you should know your production #'s and other info in order to make a strong case for why your car is worth more than Joe Schmoe's down the road. And yes, most people ARE sheep and can ne convinced very easily that something labeled "special limited edition" is actually rare when the reverse may be true. Annoying, but true.
For once I agree.......maybe things arn't so bad there in Hoboken.......makes sense to me, but I already knew that, ha 
It looks to me like YOU do own a Vette.....BUT you ALSO own a VIPER.....best of both worlds, huh? Hey , I am just teasin...My dull sense of humor, ha good read........ 
We do not own Corvettes and they do not make 37,000 a year of them. Look at some of these one year colors with production numbers under a hundred, some of the later cars have production numbers in the single digits.[/QUOTE]
We do not own Corvettes and they do not make 37,000 a year of them. Look at some of these one year colors with production numbers under a hundred, some of the later cars have production numbers in the single digits.[/QUOTE]
HobokenViper
Enthusiast
For once I agree.......maybe things arn't so bad there in Hoboken.......makes sense to me, but I already knew that, ha
Glad to see we finally see eye to eye!
Are you saying if someone doesn't pay to be a member they are a hater and don't back up the Viper Community?
commandomatt
Enthusiast
The true supporters of the Vipers are those that are putting down the money to buy a Gen V Viper (No....I personally have not done that for a few reasons). Those people are responsible to the continued success of the brand/model. They put their money where it counts and hats off to them....
Also, those businesses that are dedicated to supporting the Vipers, regardless of model year. Those businesses are certainly investing in the Vipers, past, present and future.
To plop down 150.00 bucks to be a member of a club, well that's nice to but I personally think that actually goes more towards being an 'enthusiast'. The member status in the club, and I tried it, essentially got me a magazine (very expensive magazine) that I choose to give away to another forum 'enthusiast' anyway. Choosing to become a VCA member really has very little to do with the actual support of the car. Not everyone is a 'clubber' and many can not benefit from the perks.
There are many, many on this forum that have invested tons of money over the years in Vipers, yet they may still not be a member of this club.
So to qualify 'non members' as 'haters', is just an ignorant statement.
I personally think this is a great thread that clearly shows that there is something very unique about these cars....the title on the thread proves this.
Matt
